Minimum Wage?

[Hatuey]

And its not too hard to get shot in the ghetto.

It's not hard to get shot anywhere in America. All your dreams can come true at Magic City and then 10 minutes later you can get shot on MLK blv.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Do you think that people would be safe in 300 years or will only about 20 people have all the money...

This is happening anyway, and it has nothing to do with the minimum wage. If anything, the minimum wage exacerbates this problem, by forcing people into Welfare programs which deliberately penalize them for attempting to save or invest money.

If this is the problem you're attempting to solve, you would be better served by promoting a more steeply progressive income tax and reinstating and increasing the inheritance tax. It's dismantling those taxes-- and creating artificial entry barriers into most industries-- that allows more wealth to be concentrated into fewer hands each year.

... because remember when someone gets to a high power he doesnt have to pay alot of money and some people DONT have a choice to work for that low pay becuase they need food.

You think that people with a lot of money get to control the price of labor. They really don't, anymore than you control the price of milk by deciding whether or not to buy it.

Remember, labor is a service; it's a marketable product, like any other. Now, instead of labor, imagine we were discussing some other commodity-- let's stick with milk. In order to protect the people who produce milk, and the people who make their living by selling milk to other people, the government passes a law that says that milk must cost at least five dollars per gallon.

This means that people who buy a lot of milk might have to start buying less milk, because they cannot afford as much. Some people who normally buy milk might not be able to buy milk at all. This costs the milk-producers money and makes the market for milk smaller; some producers may even have to go out of business.

This policy isn't good for either the people who buy milk, or the people who produce milk. The only difference between milk and labor is, the people who make their living selling milk understand this.

Now, there are ways for the government to improve the labor market. They can help to create new labor customers-- new jobs-- and they can help labor producers get the training necessary to produce more valuable labor. They can subsidize either labor customers for buying labor, or they can subsidize labor producers who sell their labor at lower prices. They can offer services that make it easier and less expensive to produce labor, by reducing the living expenses of the people who do so.

All of these policies are good for people who work for a living, and good for people who pay them to. And here, the difference between milk and labor is, the government actually does this for the people who produce milk.

and why is it so important for their genes to remain in the pool? why won't these hardships strengthen the kids so they become better members of society and dont make the same mistakes their parents made?

To answer your first question, because they aren't simply going to lay down and die quietly. Hungry people only suffer in silence when everyone is hungry; otherwise, they fight for their survival and do everything in their power to take what they need.

This is pretty good for the gene pool, and I actually believe that human society needs to go through this process every once in a while. However, it's terrible for society, both culturally and productively, and the main purpose of government is to prevent it from happening.

As for why these hardships don't "strengthen" the kids, you're not looking at something simple like muscular development. Hardship strengthens character only when there are positive role models demonstrating "strong" behavior-- and then being rewarded for it.

Unfortunately, our society is not constructed in such a way that it often rewards positive behavior-- at least, not on a basis short-term enough for it to benefit people unless they already have an extensive safety net.

Isn't there any forum rule against promoting eugenics?

Absolutely not. There are rules against racism and hate speech, which might be extended to include any pro-active campaign to directly eliminate "undesirables", but there's no rule of any kind that prohibits suggesting that we simply allow people to kill each other and starve to death on their own.

Hell, if we did that, it'd be impossible to discuss the war in Iraq without banning everyone.

Not to mention, what you're discussing is closer to Social Darwinism than eugenics... as far as I am aware, I am the only active proponent of eugenics on the forum.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It's not hard to get shot anywhere in America. All your dreams can come true at Magic City and then 10 minutes later you can get shot on MLK blv.

I don't know. I've been spending the last few weeks talking ****, spilling peoples' drinks, and dancing with other guys' girlfriends. So far, I haven't even managed to get myself punched in the face; frankly, it's growing frustrating.

 

[Hatuey]

I don't know. I've been spending the last few weeks talking ****, spilling peoples' drinks, and dancing with other guys' girlfriends. So far, I haven't even managed to get myself punched in the face; frankly, it's growing frustrating.

Thats cause you're an intimidating mofo. Specially since you made it public that you ate somebody's feral golden retriever.

 

[Devils.High]

If the government doesnt control the minimum wage what makes you think that it would want to control the items being circulated?

 

[Devils.High]

Ok, after talking to my friend he points out to me these facts. Say in the near future we got rid of minimum wage, how many illegals would come here and work for nothing? The majority of them would come here and work for nothing and send the money back the their families and more of them would come here. After about 4 years illegals will be done with this economy, all the money will be gone and already transfered from us currency to the currency from the immigrants. The industry giants now would have a choice to hire a American citizen that works for a small amount of money, or a illegal immigrant that would work for a smaller amount of money. What abou border patrol? Well on the look of things that would have to be the number one job so that people dont get in. Then they leave and we have no economy or anything.

Next topic would be how many would be able to come here? pretty simple as soon as one person comes here they will all come here. Like a chain effect.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Ok, after talking to my friend he points out to me these facts. Say in the near future we got rid of minimum wage, how many illegals would come here and work for nothing?

About as many as do now. Illegals already work for less than minimum wage, because they have to be hired off the books anyway. Besides, there aren't very many jobs left at minimum wage now anyway-- even food service pays better.

 

[Iriemon]

I have no problem with safety nets for people that fall on hard times
but I have no sympathy for people who can achieve nothing more than a minimum wage job
it really is not that hard to get ahead, IF you are willing to do what it takes
most are not, and they get what they deserve. Every boss I know has incompetent staff they would replace if they could find a reliable, hardworking indvidual who is looking to better themselves
the ole, Good Help is hard to find is not a fictitious creation of the rich to keep the poor down

You are making an assumption that is contrary to the essence of capitalism.

Capitalism seeks to optimize profit or wealth to the owners. This is done by maximizing the price the market will bear and minimizing the input cost as much as possible, including labor. If there is an excess supply of labor, capitalism will seek to reduce the cost of that labor (by paying lower wages) to the maximum extent possible, regardless how hard the labor works or what it "deserves."

You are looking at what a person "deserves" solely based upon what market forces dictate. I suggests there are other factors that should be considered as to what a working person "deserves" as opposed to the minimum wage the market will bear.

 

[Iriemon]

People shouldn't breed until they are financially and emotionally ready for the responsibility. Producing offspring is a responsibility, it is not a right like the left seems to think. I don't really feel sorry for people who have a dozen kids and are working a minimum wage job, they're idiots to begin with.

A big argument for govt funded birth control and abortion.

It is true there are lots of folks who are unfortunate to have not been born with the mental capability as the rest of us -- or idiots as you call them. Still, if they are willing to work IMO we, the fortunate, should reward them for that.

 

[DeeJayH]

A big argument for govt funded birth control and abortion.

It is true there are lots of folks who are unfortunate to have not been born with the mental capability as the rest of us -- or idiots as you call them. Still, if they are willing to work IMO we, the fortunate, should reward them for that.

why are successful people called fortunate?
unless they hit the Lotto they worked for their money and damn hard
what is fortunate about that?

 

[Iriemon]

Originally Posted by Iriemon
A big argument for govt funded birth control and abortion.

It is true there are lots of folks who are unfortunate to have not been born with the mental capability as the rest of us -- or idiots as you call them. Still, if they are willing to work IMO we, the fortunate, should reward them for that.

why are successful people called fortunate?
unless they hit the Lotto they worked for their money and damn hard
what is fortunate about that?

Lots of folks work damn hard and are not wealthy. Wealth can come from a number of sources including inheritance. But if you were born with the mental capacity or (for a lucky few) the physical or some other talent necessary to greatly succeed, you are fortunate. Not everyone is born with those talents, skills, or wealthy families.

 

[Cephus]

A big argument for govt funded birth control and abortion.

No, a big argument for enforced responsibility. The stupid do not need government freebies, they need to be kicked in the head in hopes of jarring loose a few brain cells. They don't need to be able to sit on the couch watching Oprah while the welfare checks come rolling in, they need to go hungry until they are *FORCED* to get off their butts and work to get their money, even if it's digging ditches or cleaning up along the side of freeways.

It is true there are lots of folks who are unfortunate to have not been born with the mental capability as the rest of us -- or idiots as you call them. Still, if they are willing to work IMO we, the fortunate, should reward them for that.

We shouldn't 'reward' them for making an effort, that's the minimum that is expected of everyone. What, do we give people a check because they get up in the morning?

 

[Iriemon]

Originally Posted by Cephus
People shouldn't breed until they are financially and emotionally ready for the responsibility. Producing offspring is a responsibility, it is not a right like the left seems to think. I don't really feel sorry for people who have a dozen kids and are working a minimum wage job, they're idiots to begin with.

Originally Posted by Iriemon
A big argument for govt funded birth control and abortion.

No, a big argument for enforced responsibility. ....

How do you proposed enforced responsibility of breeding? Govt issued chastity belts? Mandatory birth control? Spy cameras in everyone's bedrooms?

We shouldn't 'reward' them for making an effort, that's the minimum that is expected of everyone. What, do we give people a check because they get up in the morning?

No, for working. Was there something I said that was ambiguous about that?

 

[doughgirl]

In my state our minimum wage is 28% higher than the federal minimum wage. And it increases every year subject to what the cost of living is.
I’m all for minimum wage but, that wage has to be put in perspective. Minimum wage jobs are for part-time, very basic entry -level and transition positions. Should minimum wage ever equal say a teachers wage? If you raise minimum wage to accommodate the unskilled worker then all salaries and skilled labor should be raised across the board. Driving up wages results in higher consumer prices and consequences that affect the poor and those on fixed incomes. It might create more pay for some but it also reduces the creation of new jobs.

About illegals……..


Our minimum wage has severe consequences on my state. For one its makes our already intolerable illegal alien crisis even worse. I’m in Arizona. It only serves to attract more and more illegals. That’s what happens when you create economic incentives that benefit them. Employers find themselves in a dilemma. They are forced to cut back on employment in order to accommodate the minimum wage. Employers then who need more help now hire illegal off the books at below minimum to maintain their business operation which takes jobs away from the citizens in our state. So now we have this underground economy that deprives our state of tax revenue. Illegal have a greater incentive to enter the country and enjoy rewards once they get here. I mean lets make our country even more attractive to illegal immigration why don’t we. We should be perusing policies to reduce the economic incentives for illegals and reduce the government burden on small businesses and allow free market concepts to work. That is what made America great. Now they come and can minimum wage, pay no taxes, free health care, educucation and the list goes on. And now all the Banks support them by giving them loans and free credit cards. All out of Joe taxpayers expense. Big news aroud our areas about illegals and banking. Frontlines of newspapers, Boycott Bank of America. Oh yea.......and do what? You take your money out of that bank and put it where? All the banks here give loans, free credit cards to illegals. The banks dont require anything but a Mexican ID.

Arizona is on the frontlines of illegal immigration. We have hundreds of miles of unprotected borders that illegals cross daily, most of whom use to continue on to other parts of the country. Not any more. Why should they move on they have a strong financial reason to stay here. No other border states minimum wage is what ours is and they would have to travel to Vermont or Washington state to make more than what we pay.
Our laws in the state say that every PERSON shall receive a minimum wage, not just citizens. So if an illegal is ever fired (once we crack down on illegal immigration-the government however does not want to crack down) the illegal can sue or force the state to sue on their behalf (of course at taxpayers expense) and the court is REQUIRED to award them 2-3 times their total pay at Arizonas higher minimum wage. Hell lets give the illegal a bonus if they get caught.
In my opinion this is global communism.
This is how minumum wage affects our state and just some of the consequences. It will affect other areas as well. Look at the demise of our rural and inner city communities. These are low rent areas where the cost of living can be much much lower thatn expensive city areas. The low cost areas begin to fail with the advent of minumum wage, especially in our state. The slower stores, cafes, gas stations close down. The small businesses cant afford to pay the higher minimum wage.
In my state alone small business owners provide 80% of all new jobs. Not anymore they don’t. We have businesses that are closing down and moving out of state.

As you can see this issue really ticks me off and it would you if you lived on a border state. I read the other day that if an illegal alien is caught in California with less than 500 pounds of pot, they are sent home, no questions asked. They are not prosecuted. Just compare that to what Johnny citizen gets if he is caught with a single joint. Lets put it this way, you dont want to be a citizen in Arizona and get caught with a joint. Sheriff Joe has a plan all right and it AINT FUN. Unless that is your an illegal alien. :roll:

 

[DeeJayH]

Lots of folks work damn hard and are not wealthy. Wealth can come from a number of sources including inheritance. But if you were born with the mental capacity or (for a lucky few) the physical or some other talent necessary to greatly succeed, you are fortunate. Not everyone is born with those talents, skills, or wealthy families.

other than handicaps, I disagree (excluding inheritances also)
with persistance anyone can be wealthy
but maybe we should define wealthy
I would put it at where all your needs are covered and alot of your wants
specific dollar number would vary depending on where you live

and i would agree that alot of people work hard but dont get wealthy
and it si usually because they are only working hard and not smart
or they are unwilling to do what it takes
the successful are usually people who take big risks
I certainly have, and I am only just geting going
I have suffered many setbacks in my life, but i keep going, and I do what it takes.
most people do what it takes to get by, for numerous reasons

 

[Cephus]

How do you proposed enforced responsibility of breeding? Govt issued chastity belts? Mandatory birth control? Spy cameras in everyone's bedrooms?

Nope, just a refusal to pay for people's idiocy and that applies to everything in life. You want to go smoke? Go ahead, just don't come expecting us to pay for your lung cancer treatments. You did it to yourself. There are a lot of things that happen today that people expect the government to pay for because they're too stupid or lazy to do anything about it themselves.

You screw up, don't come looking at me for help. You should have thought of that before you were an idiot.

 

[Iriemon]

Nope, just a refusal to pay for people's idiocy and that applies to everything in life. You want to go smoke? Go ahead, just don't come expecting us to pay for your lung cancer treatments. You did it to yourself. There are a lot of things that happen today that people expect the government to pay for because they're too stupid or lazy to do anything about it themselves.

You screw up, don't come looking at me for help. You should have thought of that before you were an idiot.

Yeah, and I think that is what I said based on what you said. If a breeder isn't responsible enough to have a child, she should take birth control and if she gets pregnant she should have an abortion. And if she can't afford that the Govt should provide it. That what we reduce the number of kids with irresponsible parents.

 

[Devils.High]

In conclusion we need it, illegals now are here because it is attracting but if it becomes more attractive then more people will come here.

 

[Cephus]

In conclusion we need it, illegals now are here because it is attracting but if it becomes more attractive then more people will come here.

You don't think the illegals are making minimum wage, do you? They're getting paid virtually nothing because they can't complain and if you forced them all to be earning minimum wage, they'd all lose their jobs, end up on welfare, and the employers would wait for the next batch of illegals they could pay virtually nothing and abuse. That's the way the system works.

 

[Devils.High]

Actually I think that minimum wage is a must, it would just be a endless cycle of government not caring about buisness and the buisness slowly taking over the people. As I said before that big buisness will just take over the people slowly and slowly untill its not going to be any different then the guilded age. And when government gets really corrupt maybe they will even take the exta step and take bribes so that they have money and rule laws that are unconstitutional for the benifits of the big buisness. Personally I think that if we dont have a minimum wage then America will fail.

 

[DeeJayH]

minimum wage, just like unions, may have played a critical role in the past but they are no longer necessary
people are too educated as to what has happened before they existed
and people are able to achieve the same results now, without government interference doing it for them

 

[Navy Pride]

I support minimum wage as long as tax breaks are given to small business owners who have to pay it.........

 

[ARealConservative]

Isn't there any forum rule against promoting eugenics?

I certainly hope not.

Wouldn't blood testing requirements for marriage fall under eugenics?

The concern - and I feel it is a valid one - is that human compassion is thwarting natural selection and if it goes on long enough - the effects will be very negative.

 

[Vader]

a persons wages should be determined by the market place, just like prices of goods are determined by the market place

I disagree. Big business cannot be trusted to be honest in matters regarding salary. As such, there needs to be rules to keep corporate scumbags in check.

The invisible hand approach to the marketplace only works when people in the marketplace are honest. As such, laws that govern minimum wage are important because they force corporate scum to be honest.

 

[Vader]

Besides the fact that government is historically inept at providing economic solutions and the minimum wage violates just about every tenant of solid economic theory, it's bad policy, all it does is create a cycle of buying power depreciation that must continually be repaired by adding to the wage that created the cycle in the first place. If market factors could be allowed to determine labor contracts you would see an increase in worker advancement as people started to see that the system works when they have the bargaining power of labor demand vs. supply.

Unfortunately, big business scumbags cannot be trusted to be honest and fair. Remember when big business scumsuckers made little children work in hazardous environments? Remember when big business scumbags were allowed to dock pay for any reason they wanted?

Laws had to be made to keep the useless blood-sucking sons of whores in check. Before we had labor laws of this type, we had 8 year-old children working 16 hour days... for 10 cents per hour.

As such, I recommend that you cease your attempt to support the big business rape the working poor.

As I see it, what you really mean is that minimum wage forces dishonest big business scumbags to pay a certain wage whether they like it or not and this isn't fair to the big business scum.

Working poor :spank: <--- Big Business Scumbags