Migrant caravan: Detained Guatemalan boy dies at Mexico-US border

[apdst]

As usual you don't know what you're talking about.

Dec. 18, approximately 1:00 pm, the child and his father are taken into custody about 3 miles west of the Paso Del Norte Port of Entry in El Paso, Texas. The child and his father are transferred to the Paso Del Norte Port (PDT) about 3 1/2 hours later

Nearly 2 days later on Dec. 20, the two are transferred to the El Paso Border Patrol Station, where they spend the next two days

So far that brings the time they have spent in US Border patrol custody to 4 days now.

Late on Dec. 22, They are transferred to the Alamogordo Border Patrol Station in New Mexico "to finalize processing.

After a day and a half at Alamogrodo a processing agent "noticed that the child was coughing and appeared to have glossy eyes" on Dec. 24

So from Dec. 18 when taken into custody to Dec 24 the child has been in US custody for nearly an entire week before signs of illness in the child was observed.

That boy was sick before he was taken into custody. Your timeline proves that he was in custody BEFORE his father reported him as being sick.

He sure as hell didn't get sick because he was in custody.

 

[SLC]

Now you're quacking like a bigot.

I'm quacking like a person that realizes that America has a lot of its own poor that need our help and we don't need to import more. I'd rather spend my tax money on a poor American Tennessee kid than a poor Guatemalan we cannot take care of everyone in the world. As a nation we are pretty generous but there are limits on what we can realistically do. If you feel we owe the poor in Guatemala a living donate to a Guatemalan charity. I donate to St. Judes an the Tarrant county food bank every month and have for years. I'm doing my part for kids and for the poor how about you?

 

[Atomic Kid]

The law says stop at the border unless you have proper documentation.

This is what the judge had to say about the law.

"U.S. District Judge Jon S. Tigar agreed with the complaint in his ruling, issuing a temporary restraining order on the proclamation.

"Whatever the scope of the President's authority, he may not rewrite the immigration laws to impose a condition that Congress has expressly forbidden," he wrote. "Defendants' claims that the rule can somehow be harmonized with the INA are not persuasive."

"Failure to comply with entry requirements such as arriving at a designated port of entry should bear little, if any, weight in the asylum process," the Obama-appointed judge continued.

It "strains credulity" that an asylum-seeker's manner of entry into the U.S. can be the sole factor in declaring them ineligible for asylum, he wrote.

Tigar also noted the immigrants the plaintiffs represent will suffer "irreparable injury" if the proclamation is put into full effect — asylum seekers would face increased risks of violence and other harms at the border, he wrote."

 

[SLC]

This is what the judge had to say about the law.

"U.S. District Judge Jon S. Tigar agreed with the complaint in his ruling, issuing a temporary restraining order on the proclamation.

"Whatever the scope of the President's authority, he may not rewrite the immigration laws to impose a condition that Congress has expressly forbidden," he wrote. "Defendants' claims that the rule can somehow be harmonized with the INA are not persuasive."

"Failure to comply with entry requirements such as arriving at a designated port of entry should bear little, if any, weight in the asylum process," the Obama-appointed judge continued.

It "strains credulity" that an asylum-seeker's manner of entry into the U.S. can be the sole factor in declaring them ineligible for asylum, he wrote.

Tigar also noted the immigrants the plaintiffs represent will suffer "irreparable injury" if the proclamation is put into full effect — asylum seekers would face increased risks of violence and other harms at the border, he wrote."

And a judge overruled Trumps ban on immigrants from countries that couldn't be vetted. Until a group of 9 judges over ruled him. The thing is you can judge shop and some judges will rule pretty much how you want them to.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46682354

An eight-year-old boy from Guatemala has died in US government custody, immigration authorities say.

It is the second time this month an immigrant child has died while being detained after crossing the US-Mexico border.
=========================================================
If Trump keeps this up (along with the now indefinite shutdown), he can count on not being reelected.

I'm wondering how many posts I will have to read before someone puts all the blame on the boy and his family or anyone other than the US authorities.

Back to you soon.

...

And the answer is

3​

 

[Atomic Kid]

I'm quacking like a person that realizes that America has a lot of its own poor that need our help and we don't need to import more. I'd rather spend my tax money on a poor American Tennessee kid than a poor Guatemalan we cannot take care of everyone in the world. As a nation we are pretty generous but there are limits on what we can realistically do. If you feel we owe the poor in Guatemala a living donate to a Guatemalan charity. I donate to St. Judes an the Tarrant county food bank every month and have for years. I'm doing my part for kids and for the poor how about you?

Too bad then that the President and the party in power really don't give damn about helping the poor but are instead far more focused on helping the rich and enriching themselves. Paul Ryan's biggest complaint about leaving Congress and his speakership was that he didn't get around to sticking it to more poor people before heading out the door.

 

[SLC]

Too bad then that the President and the party in power really don't give damn about helping the poor but are instead far more focused on helping the rich and enriching themselves. Paul Ryan's biggest complaint about leaving Congress and his speakership that he didn't get around to sticking it to more poor people before heading out the door.

Oh Please :roll: Care to make that wager on cause of death???

 

[maxparrish]

Here's what some real medical people have to say about the present conditions at the border. This is taken from the NY Times article published on Christmas Day...

So let's review the "liberal" reasoning behind these tragic developments. Under Obama a program of separating children from families is initiated. Then under Trump it continues when the professional hair pullers (without tears) find something to slam Trump with, they wail "oh the inhumanity". Then activist judges and the clueless public pressure them to keep the children with the families.

However, then the children may be exposed to sickness from be detained with their families, and when they die the hair-pullers return and whine "How horrible they are in these conditions".

The hypocrisy is stomach turning. The thoughtless liberal gets his way and then bitches about the consequences when they win - liberals pushed ICE to do what it didn't want to do and now children are dead.

Seems to me some judge or spokesperson ought to "man up" and apologize for their arrogant assumption that they knew better.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

The law says stop at the border unless you have proper documentation.

So your position is that it is illegal to enter the United States of America in order to make an asylum claim unless you have already received permission from the US government to enter the United States of America is it?

That means that you must support deporting all of those illegal immigrants from Cuba who DID NOT "stop at the border" (in their case the 12 mile limit) because they did not have visas to enter the United States of America.

Well, don't you?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

First child never made the "ice box".

The second was In the hospital. Twice.

One wonders how this could possibly happen in the country with the world's best medical care system, doesn't one?

 

[Atomic Kid]

And a judge overruled Trumps ban on immigrants from countries that couldn't be vetted. Until a group of 9 judges over ruled him. The thing is you can judge shop and some judges will rule pretty much how you want them to.

That's really an apples to oranges comparison but good luck anyways with shopping for a judge who thinks that a President can write his or her own laws or can overwrite those passed by Congress.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

So let's review the "liberal" reasoning behind these tragic developments. Under Obama a program of separating children from families is initiated.

When Mr. Obama was the President the policy (as it was under Mr. Bush before him [and under Mr. Clinton before him {and under Mr. Bush before him <and under Mr. Reagan before him>}]) was that children would only be separated from their parents IF the parents were arrested for crimes unconnected with their manner of arrival in the United States of America.

Under Mr. Trump the practice changed to separate children from their parents if the parents were arrested for ANY crime, including those directly arising from their manner of arrival in the United States of America EVEN IF that was the only crime that the parents committed.

So you are wrong when you claim that the practice of "separating children from parents" ORIGINATED with Mr. Obama and your implication that there had been no change in the policy of when children would be separated from their parents were both either deliberately false or arising from ignorance.

Acknowledgement of your factual errors will let me retain my preference for the second of the two.

 

[SLC]

That's really an apples to oranges comparison but good luck anyways with shopping for a judge who thinks that a President can write his or her own laws or can overwrite those passed by Congress.

And judges can't usurp the Constitutional power of the President.

 

[Exactice]

That's really an apples to oranges comparison but good luck anyways with shopping for a judge who thinks that a President can write his or her own laws or can overwrite those passed by Congress.

Hey Atomic! Happy holidays!

Can I address a couple of points you made (Sorry didnt see all 9 pages if you made corrections but a couple caught my eye)

1) You blamed trump for the death of 2 recent children? Trump has NO direct fault in their deaths. THERE may be indirect by means of stirring fear for closing our borders so people are RUSHING to get in... But thats wholely indirect and NOT a fault of Trump.

2) You stated Trump and family separation. That is honestly incorrect. His actions directed THROUGH session is 100% accountability and enforcement. enforcing what you might ask? CURRENT EXISTENT immigration laws. he has NOT changed ANY laws, but effectively stated that ALL LAWS MUST be fully enforced. THUS we have discussed in many threads how the "Child Safeguard" works in regards to a detain parents. THIS IS HOW all are treated in AMERICA. Legal citizens or illegal migrants.

3) The children that died, I do not know the circumstances ( but it seems that the care custody and control was in question by the Border Patrol in general) This seem like smear campaign in whole to distract from the FACT the children 1 was fully dehydrated and NOT the fault of TRUMP or the Border Patrol but that of the Journey that these "migrants" chose to take and put themselves in. same with the SICK child. NOTHING of Trumps action or direct actions.

4) JUDGES RULE, WAS CORRECT. In my opinion TRUMP cannot BAN illegals from claiming Asylum that is PART of our LAWS so the RULING was CORRECT. THIS HAS NOTHING to do with any travel ban or immigration law change outside of again him wanting to ban any illegal not going through a port of entry and claiming asylum ( WHILE Morally I agree WITH the point) legally trump does NOT have the authority to deny a claim of asylum REGARDLESS if we know for a fact 80% will get denied as well as the fact that they were CAUGHT outside of a legal port of entry and then TAUGHT to say OH we want to claim asylum.


So to respond.

OUTSIDE of the the ban on asylum seekers that are caught NOT at a port of entry, WHAT LAW has Trump TRIED to change without congress? What law was NOT constitutional? WHAT actions legitimately is TRUMP taking that is NOT constitutional?

 

[Exactice]

When Mr. Obama was the President the policy (as it was under Mr. Bush before him [and under Mr. Clinton before him {and under Mr. Bush before him <and under Mr. Reagan before him>}]) was that children would only be separated from their parents IF the parents were arrested for crimes unconnected with their manner of arrival in the United States of America.

Under Mr. Trump the practice changed to separate children from their parents if the parents were arrested for ANY crime, including those directly arising from their manner of arrival in the United States of America EVEN IF that was the only crime that the parents committed.

So you are wrong when you claim that the practice of "separating children from parents" ORIGINATED with Mr. Obama and your implication that there had been no change in the policy of when children would be separated from their parents were both either deliberately false or arising from ignorance.

Acknowledgement of your factual errors will let me retain my preference for the second of the two.

This is NOT true.

CHILD Safeguard is a standing KNOWN Practice done by ALL law enforcement agencies. Mr. TRUMP did NOT CHANGE any Practices. Through AG session he REQUIRED 100% enforcement of EXISTING LAWS. He did NOT change any laws.

During any other administration they pick and CHOSE when they enforce the "Child Safeguard" policy used by ALL law enforcement.

FAMILY SEPARATION IS NOT A LAW ENACTED in any way shape or FORM.

CHILD Safeguard is a standard operating procedure done by LAW enforcement when a PARENT is DETAINED PERIOD.

Be honest at least. Dont add or change something to fit your blame.




How about this. Answer this honestly and factually.

1) IN America, If you are Detained while with your children. WHAT has to happen?

1a)Another Guardian is required to secure your children? Or is the Children taken into custody by the policy then CPS until the parent or legal guardian can pick up.

1b) or is the child detained together WITH the parent in the police car? taken with the parent while booking and put in the jail cell with the parent?



100% enforcement of the law

 

[SLC]

I'm wondering how many posts I will have to read before someone puts all the blame on the boy and his family or anyone other than the US authorities.

Back to you soon.

...

And the answer is

3​

Sometimes you have to put the blame where it should be put. I have to wonder how many of these two kid's sibling in Guatemala are still alive? My guess is all of them.

 

[Atomic Kid]

So let's review the "liberal" reasoning behind these tragic developments. Under Obama a program of separating children from families is initiated. Then under Trump it continues when the professional hair pullers (without tears) find something to slam Trump with, they wail "oh the inhumanity". Then activist judges and the clueless public pressure them to keep the children with the families.

However, then the children may be exposed to sickness from be detained with their families, and when they die the hair-pullers return and whine "How horrible they are in these conditions".

The hypocrisy is stomach turning. The thoughtless liberal gets his way and then bitches about the consequences when they win - liberals pushed ICE to do what it didn't want to do and now children are dead.

Seems to me some judge or spokesperson ought to "man up" and apologize for their arrogant assumption that they knew better.

And let's review for the umpteenth time the conservative blather about the child separation policy being started by Obama. Obama was operating under the same immigration laws then as Trump is now in that any adult who is being taken to court for criminal are to have their children separated from them. In most cases, if the charge took longer than 72 hours to process, which is the longest time that children can be held by Customs and Border Protection, children were sent into the care of the Health and Human Services Department. What is different now is Trump's "zero tolerance" policy. Which says that anyone caught crossing the border illegally was to be criminally prosecuted, even if they had few or no previous offences Which has resulted in a sharp and steep increase in number of children being separated from their parents. It's one thing to enact policy but it is another to make sure that before you enact it that you try to anticipate what effects it will or may have and then make sure that the agencies whom you are charging with the responsibility of carrying it out have the proper resources being supplied to them so they can carry it out safely and effectively. Obviously this administration has fallen far short of providing the kind of necessary support and logistics for the Border Patrol to be able to do the job properly. As of this moment the US has a record 15,000 or so migrant children in it's care and custody.

 

[Atomic Kid]

And judges can't usurp the Constitutional power of the President.

It's the President who is trying usurp the Constitutional authority of Congress to make law.

 

[Exactice]

And let's review for the umpteenth time the conservative blather about the child separation policy being started by Obama. Obama was operating under the same immigration laws then as Trump is now 100% Correct in that any adult who is being taken to court for criminal are to have their children separated from them This is the existing policy and practices of law enforcement ALL law enforcement . In most cases, if the charge took longer than 72 hours to process, which is the longest time that children can be held by Customs and Border Protection, children were sent into the care of the Health and Human Services Department. What is different now is Trump's "zero tolerance" policy. Which says that anyone caught crossing the border illegally was to be criminally prosecuted, even if they had few or no previous offences Which has resulted in a sharp and steep increase in number of children being separated from their parents. It's one thing to enact policy but it is another to make sure that before you enact it that you try to anticipate what effects it will or may have and then make sure that the agencies whom you are charging with the responsibility of carrying it out have the proper resources being supplied to them so they can carry it out safely and effectively. Obviously this administration has fallen far short of providing the kind of necessary support and logistics for the Border Patrol to be able to do the job properly. As of this moment the US has a record 15,000 or so migrant children in it's care and custody.

Obama in essence is the ONE that changed the RULES without APPROVAL of Congress.

He pick and CHOSE when to enforce the law. The laws that Trump is enforcing 100% PERIOD not pick and choosing.

We are having HUGE in fluxes of Migrants at the border the lack an inability to sustain this. ULTIMATELY THE CHOICE of the Illegal Migrants that CHOOSE not to respect our laws by NOT applying for a legal travel visa and the ability to self vet(Through the VISA process) so the can LEGALLY enter the US.

 

[SLC]

It's the President who is trying usurp the Constitutional authority of Congress to make law.

Oh you mean Obama with DACA. You are correct!

 

[Atomic Kid]

Hey Atomic! Happy holidays!

Can I address a couple of points you made (Sorry didnt see all 9 pages if you made corrections but a couple caught my eye)

1) You blamed trump for the death of 2 recent children? Trump has NO direct fault in their deaths. THERE may be indirect by means of stirring fear for closing our borders so people are RUSHING to get in... But thats wholely indirect and NOT a fault of Trump.

2) You stated Trump and family separation. That is honestly incorrect. His actions directed THROUGH session is 100% accountability and enforcement. enforcing what you might ask? CURRENT EXISTENT immigration laws. he has NOT changed ANY laws, but effectively stated that ALL LAWS MUST be fully enforced. THUS we have discussed in many threads how the "Child Safeguard" works in regards to a detain parents. THIS IS HOW all are treated in AMERICA. Legal citizens or illegal migrants.

3) The children that died, I do not know the circumstances ( but it seems that the care custody and control was in question by the Border Patrol in general) This seem like smear campaign in whole to distract from the FACT the children 1 was fully dehydrated and NOT the fault of TRUMP or the Border Patrol but that of the Journey that these "migrants" chose to take and put themselves in. same with the SICK child. NOTHING of Trumps action or direct actions.

4) JUDGES RULE, WAS CORRECT. In my opinion TRUMP cannot BAN illegals from claiming Asylum that is PART of our LAWS so the RULING was CORRECT. THIS HAS NOTHING to do with any travel ban or immigration law change outside of again him wanting to ban any illegal not going through a port of entry and claiming asylum ( WHILE Morally I agree WITH the point) legally trump does NOT have the authority to deny a claim of asylum REGARDLESS if we know for a fact 80% will get denied as well as the fact that they were CAUGHT outside of a legal port of entry and then TAUGHT to say OH we want to claim asylum.


So to respond.

OUTSIDE of the the ban on asylum seekers that are caught NOT at a port of entry, WHAT LAW has Trump TRIED to change without congress? What law was NOT constitutional? WHAT actions legitimately is TRUMP taking that is NOT constitutional?

Happy holidays to you too Exactice!

1. It's Trump's policy that has created these conditions and he has shown little in will or initiative to mitigate the problems it has incurred by failing to respond with the support and logistics to help these our overwhelmed border agencies and so that kind of neglect and indifference has resulted tragic consequences for some of those placed under our care was really fully predictable. So he owns the responsibility. The buck stops with him the President.

2. I have already said in another post that Obama was operating under the same immigration laws that Trump is now. The difference now is Trump's "zero tolerance" policy of criminally charging every illegal immigrant who crosses our border has rapidly accelerated the rate of families being separated.

3. The cause of death has in the first case of the little girl has not been disclosed but her father disputes the lack of hydration claims and we know that these people are given food and water upon being taken into custody. Trump's denying these people the opportunity the law says they have to enter through a legal port of entry and apply for asylum is causing these people through their own despair and desperation to make these difficult and dangerous choices and leaves them especially vulnerable predatory criminals such as "coyotes". Who I am sure are seeing their 'business' boom because of Trump's harsh immigration policy.

4. The law Trump is attempting to circumvent with his asylum ban is the Immigration and Nationality Act, or INA, which maintains that if a person makes it to U.S. soil — even if they've crossed the border illegally — they are eligible to apply for asylum.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Oh you mean Obama with DACA. You are correct!

Yeah well the court has already ruled that Trump wrongly ended DACA. So far you're batting a 1.000.

 

[maxparrish]

snipped...

And let's review for the umpteenth time the conservative blather about the child separation policy being started by Obama. Obama was operating under the same immigration laws then as Trump is now in that any adult who is being taken to court for criminal are to have their children separated from them. In most cases, if the charge took longer than 72 hours to process, which is the longest time that children can be held by Customs and Border Protection, children were sent into the care of the Health and Human Services Department. What is different now is Trump's "zero tolerance" policy. Which says that anyone caught crossing the border illegally was to be criminally prosecuted, even if they had few or no previous offences Which has resulted in a sharp and steep increase in number of children being separated from their parents. It's one thing to enact policy but it is another to make sure that before you enact it that you try to anticipate what effects it will or may have and then make sure that the agencies whom you are charging with the responsibility of carrying it out have the proper resources being supplied to them so they can carry it out safely and effectively. Obviously this administration has fallen far short of providing the kind of necessary support and logistics for the Border Patrol to be able to do the job properly. As of this moment the US has a record 15,000 or so migrant children in it's care and custody.

So you fellows don't deny that Obama initiated the separation of children from their parents, but because he charged fewer illegals for being illegal the result was he didn't need to separate as many, and could keep them with detained adults? Is that supposed to be a relevant point to the flip flopping political opportunism of the left?

The point, which seems to have whizzed over both of your heads, is that it was passed unnoticed in the popular press and nightly network news broadcasts as long as Obama did it, but not when Trump took illegals own illegality more seriously and broadly charged their parents. THEN the professional weepers appeared to bemoan the inhumanity of Trump over "the children" for family separation.

And then, after winning the war with the help of judges, you now bemoan the consequences and are distressed that children are dying from (possibly) being kept with unseparated with families ?

Moreover TU's lame and irrelevant "Goldilocks argument" that detaining Obama's X amount of children in facilities is (in essence) was "just the right amount" and conversely "Obama's separating them it was ALSO just the right amount" is merely saying that he committed two kinds of (liberal) actions condemned as outrages when Trump did it, rather than one.

You think that legitimizes the critics oppoturnism, do you?

LOL...

 

[maxparrish]

Yeah well the court has already ruled that Trump wrongly ended DACA. So far you're batting a 1.000.

"A court" is not "the court".

 

[zimmer]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46682354

An eight-year-old boy from Guatemala has died in US government custody, immigration authorities say.

It is the second time this month an immigrant child has died while being detained after crossing the US-Mexico border.
=========================================================
If Trump keeps this up (along with the now indefinite shutdown), he can count on not being reelected.

1. Why aren’t Democrats crying for the raped and murdered women and children who make this dangerous trek? Encouraged by the Democrats Open Border policy.

2. What type of irresponsible parent would drag their very young children on such a trek? That’s child abuse.

[h=1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/
Parents in trouble again for letting kids walk alone[/h]