Middle Easterners Are Rather Angry...

[makmugens]

Middle Easterners are angry. That's what we're hearing. Angry at their corrupt, oppressive governments, but I think the media left out one very important piece. They are angry at their corrupt, puppet governments. This entire oil zone has been under the control and subversion of US and European ambitions for near or more than two centuries. Their governments are owned and through them, we exercise our dominance at their expense...for a very long time. Imagine if Colonial America stretched out for two or three more centuries being passed between Britain and France and the sight of subtle, internally destructive competition between the two.

I've read a lot of the threads here and I think it will be hard, but please try to view this, if you do watch it, without falling immediately into republican-democrat hackery. It sounds so childish and sounds like something one person barks at another when they have no informative response to something brought up except RAAAAAAWR!!!.

I think it shouldn't be hard for any of us to conceive of world powers acting with and against each other in the constant and classic game of power, nor it's willingness to sacrifice and/or mislead its own people in this purpose. I do not support Obama. I think he is a talented actor just like many other presidents. I believe we are all the victims. Whether you are pro-government or pro-business, none of these groups are pro-people. It seems we do the dirty work and they get the rewards and I think, for a long time, we have been continuously lied to on degrees from shocking to horrifying. I believe there is no division between democrats, republicans, or any other group. I think the major division truly is between our upper class and lower class. Because though many seem to cheer for them, how does one come to the conclusion that super-huge business entities, banks, and other such groups are operating with the interests of the little guy at heart?

Again, I'm not democrat, I'm not republican. Please view this as if colonial america never made it out the colonial age and we, and likely still are, struggling against British, French, Spanish influence and outright occupation, incursion, and humiliation. It was not so long ago that this was happening to us and would have had we not had the strength (and considerable backing of other strong nations) to resist. Irag and the Middle east did not because oil has made it the intense focal point of the world's leading industrial powers who absolutely rely on it for their continued position. Why else are we marching ALL over the Middle East spending millions, billions, trillions. I cannot believe it is for the liberation of it's citizens nor the establishment of democracy of any effeffective import. But that is my opinion.

Please watch and judge for yourself.

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I read Al Jazeera. This is not news to me. I know those on the right blame the anger on their religion, but they are not angry because of our religion or theirs - they are angry because of imperialism.

 

[Goshin]

So we're competing with China and Russia for control of the mideast. This is not news.

We're in it for our own best interests... just like everyone else. So what.

 

[Gardener]

The region where a significant percentage of the population is married to their own family members and who hold other cultural values many centuries out of date would rather blame their troubles on others instead of themselves.

What else is new?

 

[spud_meister]

The region where a significant percentage of the population is married to their own family members and who hold other cultural values many centuries out of date would rather blame their troubles on others instead of themselves.

What else is new?

What's Texas got to do with this? :mrgreen:

 

[d0gbreath]

What's Texas got to do with this? :mrgreen:

Learn something about the US Spud. Kentucky would have been the correct response.

Sheesh! Furiners.

 

[Deuce]

The region where a significant percentage of the population is married to their own family members and who hold other cultural values many centuries out of date would rather blame their troubles on others instead of themselves.

What else is new?

You should read some history books.

 

[Gardener]

You should read some history books.

I have.

You should read some current statistics on consanguinity.

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Ahh, I see we are having red herring for dinner.... Marital customs have absolutely nothing to anger in the Middle East over imperialism.

 

[poweRob]

I read Al Jazeera. This is not news to me. I know those on the right blame the anger on their religion, but they are not angry because of our religion or theirs - they are angry because of imperialism.

I think it is more base than that. Find where poverty is and extreme wealth disparity and you'll find a hotbed set for such anger. Is there always such anger in all such locations? Not necessarily but it creates a system where people can foster that anger rather easily. Then you get bad, manipulative leaders like bin Laden who want to exploit that avenue, then they do.

 

[Gardener]

Ahh, I see we are having red herring for dinner.... Marital customs have absolutely nothing to anger in the Middle East over imperialism.

It isn't a red herring at all. The ingrained misogyny is a real drain upon these societies, and the refusal to indulge in ANY introspection when it comes to the cultural values responsible for their failings only acts to perpetuate them.

This eternal victim mentality gets old, fast, especially when they create victims as a very product of their culture. .

 

[Risky Thicket]

I have.

You should read some current statistics on consanguinity.

The west has ****ed with and ****ed over the region for half a century. There is plenty of documented history. We have no business in the region. Reverse the situation and tell me how Americans would act.

I remember years ago when there was some article in a national paper about "foreigners" being trained at Ft. Rucker (Alabama) to fly helicopters. I remember internet panic about "Russian" vehicles being parked at some military base here in the U.S. Americans went nuts. How dare these people be allowed to have a presence in the United States. Recently I read where there is a growing effort to close School of Americas at Ft. Benning.

Somehow dickwits can manage to justify our presence in any country we damn well please. We can - and have - assassinated their leaders and handpicked their successors, we have enabled foreign government purges, funded coups, appropriated foreign resources and on and on, but if if anyone one hints such a thing happening in America the country would be up in arms.

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. People in the Middle East know they have a valuable resource (oil) and they are sick, sick sick of having nations that want their oil putting puppet dictators in place so they have access to the oil and turning their countries into war zones. This is not about religious extremism, their populace being weaker because of inbreeding or any such nonsense. They want to elect their own governments and share in the wealth produced by the sell of their natural resources.

It isn't 'playing the victim' if you have been demonstrably victimized for a hundred years or so.

 

[digsbe]

There is a religious extremist player though. Many of the terror groups do so in the name of Islam and attempt to turn the nation into an Islamic state. I think they are angry at their governments, but there is an Islamist extremist element that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Risky Thicket]

There is a religious extremist player though. Many of the terror groups do so in the name of Islam and attempt to turn the nation into an Islamic state. I think they are angry at their governments, but there is an Islamist extremist element that shouldn't be ignored.

Yes, but no different perhaps than the growing religious element in American military.

 

[digsbe]

Yes, but no different perhaps than the growing religious element in American military.

How so? I don't see the American military wanted to kill disbelievers and instill an oppressive theocracy.

 

[poweRob]

There is a religious extremist player though. Many of the terror groups do so in the name of Islam and attempt to turn the nation into an Islamic state. I think they are angry at their governments, but there is an Islamist extremist element that shouldn't be ignored.

Religion in that aspect is just the vehicle. It is the in the same vein as nationalism. It's used as a unifying glue to rally around just like nationalist do with country. Being that their countries in the middle east weren't defined by themselves but rather by England back in the early 1900's, their sense of nationalism isn't as unifying as the region's religion.

 

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Religion is being used in the US to distract voters from deeply examining some of the stances of politicians by hinting or outright saying God is on their side. This is more common on the GOP side now, but that has not always been the case. Consider the considerable effort and expense the GOP went to in 2008 to try to convince the US electorate that our Methodist president was a Muslim.

 

[poweRob]

Religion is being used in the US to distract voters from deeply examining some of the stances of politicians by hinting or outright saying God is on their side. This is more common on the GOP side now, but that has not always been the case. Consider the considerable effort and expense the GOP went to in 2008 to try to convince the US electorate that our Methodist president was a Muslim.

Definitely. It is a vehicle or unifying glue here as well. When you get into regions that have more education and less income disparity, religion holds less of a nationalistic-style grasp on it's populace though. Although you are right that it does have it's strength in unifying a base still.

 

[Gardener]

This is not about religious extremism, their populace being weaker because of inbreeding or any such nonsense.

You have obviously missed the point, since you are stuck on that simplistic and overly convenient "imperialism" meme.

The point about the consanguinity rates has nothing to do with the populace being weaker due to inbreeding, but is an indication of their archaic, tribal and extremely illiberal belief systems that are ill prepared to compete in the 21st century. These extremely conservative patriarchal societies are self-defeating by nature of the rigidity of belief -- belief systems that prevent them from innovation, creativity, or adaptation. Until they advance past their tribal mindset they really have only themselves to blame.

 

[poweRob]

You have obviously missed the point, since you are stuck on that simplistic and overly convenient "imperialism" meme.

The point about the consanguinity rates has nothing to do with the populace being weaker due to inbreeding, but is an indication of their archaic, tribal and extremely illiberal belief systems that are ill prepared to compete in the 21st century. These extremely conservative patriarchal societies are self-defeating by nature of the rigidity of belief -- belief systems that prevent them from innovation, creativity, or adaptation. Until they advance past their tribal mindset they really have only themselves to blame.

As if there is no such thing as Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews... or Amish etc. etc. etc. with ultra conservative rigid religious doctrines.

 

[Gardener]

As if there is no such thing as Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews... or Amish etc. etc. etc. with ultra conservative rigid religious doctrines.

Are you really that ignorant about the preponderance of various beliefs held in various cultures?

Half of all Iraqis are married to family members. Do you really think half of all Irish, Polish or Israeli follow suit?

 

[Risky Thicket]

"consanguinity" :lamo ****, son, I do love a good argument and I love etymology, but tell the truth, when you came to "consanguinity" you had to look that sumbitch up, didn't you.

 

[Gardener]

"consanguinity" :lamo ****, son, I do love a good argument and I love etymology, but tell the truth, when you came to "consanguinity" you had had to look that sumbitch up, didn't you.

If I am your son, you must be in a rest home by now.

 

[misterman]

"consanguinity" :lamo ****, son, I do love a good argument and I love etymology, but tell the truth, when you came to "consanguinity" you had to look that sumbitch up, didn't you.

Bet you had to look it up.