Men and babies

[TheGirlNextDoor]

It's just the simple truth, Chris. Would it be better if I lied to myself and others about the situation? I have never had very much patience, and in the past I have had quite a temper. I have slightly more patience now than I did in my younger years, but not a whole lot more. I expect that things work the way the manual says they're supposed to. I don't like surprises, guessing games, or things that don't come with a manual. I never have. When things don't work the way they're supposed to, I tend to get upset. Thankfully, I'm much less likely to break those things now than I was in my younger years.

Unfortunately, children don't come with an owner's manual. There is no "reset" button or "off" switch. Until they are of sufficient age to explain their wants, needs, desires, and problems I do not have much use for them because sooner or later they are simply going to piss me off.

I will say this about you....at least you know yourself well enough to know it probably isn't a good idea for you to be a parent. Some people aren't that honest with themselves.

 

[Tigger]

When babies Cry, whinge, pooh at irregular times, try our patience, get up at 3am-smile-and want to play. IS a baby "working as they are supposed too". AS per the manual.

Sure they come with a manual. YOU just need to learn how to read, that manual.

I'd be more than happy to compensate you for a copy of that manual, Paul. I have two younger siblings and I don't remember either one of them coming with a manual. I'm pretty sure my sister-in-law hasn't gotten one with any of her three children either.

It's a game of love, my friend...a game of love.

You have to remember that I'm not a very big believer in Love, Mycroft. Definitely not as a means of overcoming the ideal that life is a matter of Investment vs. Return.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Why is it that most men say they are afraid to hold a newborn(including their own) for fear of breaking them? There's no way they can 'break' them...or is that code for;

"I just don't want to hold the baby''?

Whenever I said it, I meant it.

I'm a guy with some size on him, and babies are so small. And light. And fragile. And so on.

I've gotten over it.

 

[Tigger]

How did you survive without taking basic direction and providing your patents sufficient information to care for you?

Some days I truly wonder that myself, TGND. I actually owe my continued existance to a bit of dumb luck..... I had a grand mal seizure at age 4. It occured in the middle of the night. If my parents hadn't happened to hear me thrashing around in bed and realize that wasn't normal for me, the paralysis that I endured after the seizure might have ended up being fatal.

I will say this about you....at least you know yourself well enough to know it probably isn't a good idea for you to be a parent. Some people aren't that honest with themselves.

I don't know if I'd be a good parent, overall, or not. My girlfriend seems to believe that I would/will be. I'm not certain that I agree with her. I defintely know that newborn babies and infants are not my cup of tea. Now, once they reach the age where they can take basic direction and communicate their needs reasonably, I'm fine with them.

 

[joko104]

Why is it that most men say they are afraid to hold a newborn(including their own) for fear of breaking them? There's no way they can 'break' them...or is that code for;

"I just don't want to hold the baby''?

I think your analysis is correct.

 

[Manc Skipper]

On a course, I spent a day accompanying a midwife in a baby clinic, and one recent client came in for her 6 week checkup. I was a spare pair of hands, so I was given the baby to hold while the new mum, midwife and doctor disappeared behind the screen for the exam. The baby was yelling it's head off, but being an experienced dad, I just cuddled it up till its ear was against my chest, so it could hear my heartbeat. The baby immediately went quiet, and three worried-looking heads shot around the screen to see what I'd done to it!

 

[gunner]

On a course, I spent a day accompanying a midwife in a baby clinic, and one recent client came in for her 6 week checkup. I was a spare pair of hands, so I was given the baby to hold while the new mum, midwife and doctor disappeared behind the screen for the exam. The baby was yelling it's head off, but being an experienced dad, I just cuddled it up till its ear was against my chest, so it could hear my heartbeat. The baby immediately went quiet, and three worried-looking heads shot around the screen to see what I'd done to it!

Surely a scene for a comedy sketch...:lol:

Paul

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

It's not the pee, poop, or vomit that I have an issue with. It's the inability for the newborns to take basic direction and to provide sufficient information about what they want/need that gets on my nerves.

Their inability to communicate in a way that would stay off your nerves is due exclusively to how much every single human being needs to learn in the process of maturing in order to ... be a human being.

As someone who has such an uncommon world view and takes such a dark view of the rest of society because of it, it seems to me like maybe you'd want to embrace your best chance to shape and educate other human beings. Being a parent is the best chance most of us ever get.

 

[Tigger]

Their inability to communicate in a way that would stay off your nerves is due exclusively to how much every single human being needs to learn in the process of maturing in order to ... be a human being.

As someone who has such an uncommon world view and takes such a dark view of the rest of society because of it, it seems to me like maybe you'd want to embrace your best chance to shape and educate other human beings. Being a parent is the best chance most of us ever get.

You're absolutely correct, the problem for me is getting past that age where they are totally unable to do anything for themselves or to really learn anything useful and get to the age of two or so when they do actually become trainable individuals.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

You're absolutely correct, the problem for me is getting past that age where they are totally unable to do anything for themselves or to really learn anything useful and get to the age of two or so when they do actually become trainable individuals.

They're "trainable" from day 1. Every interaction you have with them teaches them something. That period of time where you consider them "untrainable" is when the absolute bedrock of their internal wiring is being laid.

Every silliness and affection and necessary tending (feeding and changing) during this time shapes how they will perceive you when they reach the "trainable" stage. When we feel a certain way about something and don't know why, more than likely it's a reaction from that part of our experiences.

 

[Tigger]

They're "trainable" from day 1. Every interaction you have with them teaches them something. That period of time where you consider them "untrainable" is when the absolute bedrock of their internal wiring is being laid.

Every silliness and affection and necessary tending (feeding and changing) during this time shapes how they will perceive you when they reach the "trainable" stage. When we feel a certain way about something and don't know why, more than likely it's a reaction from that part of our experiences.

Okay. Obviously newborns and infants do learn from the environment around them and their interactions with the people in their lives. I just tend to believe that we're talking about apples and oranges here....

My girlfriend's two youngest nephews are brothers. One is 10 months old and the other is 32 months old. The ability to actually instruct these two children is infinitely different. One is still working on the idea of standing up while the other one should be working on using the toilet, showing proper respect to adults, asking politely for what he wants, thanking people when he receives things, etc.... I wouldn't even bother trying to teach those things to the 10 month old.

 

[herenow1]

I understand the whole size difference, but even women are 10x bigger than a newborn and I've never heard a woman say that. It's just interesting that men think that way. I love holding babies.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Okay. Obviously newborns and infants do learn from the environment around them and their interactions with the people in their lives. I just tend to believe that we're talking about apples and oranges here....


My girlfriend's two youngest nephews are brothers. One is 10 months old and the other is 32 months old. The ability to actually instruct these two children is infinitely different. One is still working on the idea of standing up while the other one should be working on using the toilet, showing proper respect to adults, asking politely for what he wants, thanking people when he receives things, etc.... I wouldn't even bother trying to teach those things to the 10 month old.

I was well aware of what you were talking about. My point is that if you put in the extra effort to lay down the bedrock stuff, you get the opportunity to shape them on levels they won't even understand are affecting them when they're older.

That's a huge part of what being a parent is all about -- not waiting until they can talk so you can tell them "how it is." That part's the payoff.

Why should you get the payoff without the initial investment?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I understand the whole size difference, but even women are 10x bigger than a newborn and I've never heard a woman say that. It's just interesting that men think that way. I love holding babies.

It's how we're wired and how we're socialized. It's drummed into us before we're old enough to understand the line we're being fed.

 

[Tigger]

I understand the whole size difference, but even women are 10x bigger than a newborn and I've never heard a woman say that. It's just interesting that men think that way. I love holding babies.

Men just tend to be more brawn and less finesse. Even those of us who aren't hulking specimens just tend to be more like a bull in a china shop for the most part. We see that tiny creature that looks so incredibly fragile and we can just see ourselves accidentally letting it fall, or banging its head on something.

 

[justabubba]

It's how we're wired and how we're socialized. It's drummed into us before we're old enough to understand the line we're being fed.

in football, we coach the receivers "do not drop the baby"
that term is probably not found anywhere in womens' sports

 

[Tigger]

I was well aware of what you were talking about. My point is that if you put in the extra effort to lay down the bedrock stuff, you get the opportunity to shape them on levels they won't even understand are affecting them when they're older.

I just don't see how the "bedrock" stuff is really that significant to the sorts of things that I'm talking about. Obviously I'm not a parent. I'm an uncle three (soon to be four) times over and likely to be an uncle to marriage to seven more in the next couple years, but I'm just not quite catching on to how teaching them to walk, use a spoon, drink from a bottle, etc.... really has an impact on their ability and willingness to be taught once they're mobile, vocal, and capable of feeding themselves.

That's a huge part of what being a parent is all about -- not waiting until they can talk so you can tell them "how it is." That part's the payoff.

Why should you get the payoff without the initial investment?

Obviously I'm having a difficult time comprehending how that initial investment correlates to the payoff part of all this.

 

[Connery]

It's how we're wired and how we're socialized. It's drummed into us before we're old enough to understand the line we're being fed.

Being a nurturing person who can hold and care for an infant is based on individuality not on sex or upbringing.

I was helping out and holding with my younger brother and sister when they were infants when I was a small child....

 

[Tigger]

Being a nurturing person who can hold and care for an infant is based on individuality not on sex or upbringing.

I was helping out and holding with my younger brother and sister when they were infants when I was a small child....

It would seem to me that your second sentence seems to bely the last word of your first sentence. It sounds like upbringing WAS a big part of your ability to deal with small children. It was something you want to or were expected to do in your youth. On the other hand, my first words when told I had a new baby brother at the age of 25 months were... "I don't want it. Give it back!" My reaction 15 months later to the birth of my youngest brother was apparently just about as bad.

 

[liblady]

Maybe most men you know, but, nope babies are fun and cuddly and a guy gets to be all goofy with them...:mrgreen:

That's a very sexy thing to say.

 

[Connery]

Men just tend to be more brawn and less finesse. Even those of us who aren't hulking specimens just tend to be more like a bull in a china shop for the most part. We see that tiny creature that looks so incredibly fragile and we can just see ourselves accidentally letting it fall, or banging its head on something.

This is patently untrue I have been a weight lifter, football player and ballet dancer, to name a few, I was never a "bull in a china shop" because of how I trained a certain amount of agility was acquired and honed.

 

[Connery]

It would seem to me that your second sentence seems to bely the last word of your first sentence. It sounds like upbringing WAS a big part of your ability to deal with small children. It was something you want to or were expected to do in your youth. On the other hand, my first words when told I had a new baby brother at the age of 25 months were... "I don't want it. Give it back!" My reaction 15 months later to the birth of my youngest brother was apparently just about as bad.

My older brother could care less...I ran to my little brother and sister. I was never compelled to take part in the upbringing of my siblings nor was he....

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Obviously I'm having a difficult time comprehending how that initial investment correlates to the payoff part of all this.

Well, then, I guess you aren't serious about shaping children, because raising them is the most effective way to do it. Basic child psyche.

 

[Connery]

That's a very sexy thing to say.

Thank you....:mrgreen:

 

[Gardener]

Obviously I'm having a difficult time comprehending

and now you can finally join the party.

The rest of us have realized this since July of 2011.