Measles outbreak - boon for drug companies

[KokomoJojo]

Whatever the numbers BUT use chlorine and you keep 100 people alive and risk one dying. Which choice? Save the one and loose the 100? The anti vaccination brigade would sacrifice the 100.

The real objective is probably "reduce drug company profiteering". That could be a valid objective. BUT ban the use of drugs to stop profiteering is a ridiculous unethical choice.

something as simple as UV and sand will filter water. LOL

its one thing to choose its another to make it a law.

is there ANYTHING government that you are not for?

 

[BmanMcfly]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

A God given right to harbor and spread infectious disease.......

Yep, that's the ticket.

Hey, vaccines do not stop you from SPREADING disease, they are intended to prevent you from CONTRACTING the disease that you were vaccinated against.

Noted that you did not answer the questions I was asking about the mandatory vaccines.

Oh, how about the ways vaccine pushers will lie to people? In most places it's a matter of getting the waiver form that you do not wish to vaccinate.

How about the capacity of an individual to get accurate information, and weigh the pros and cons for each vaccine to decide for themselves?

Do you really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

 

[Hamster Buddha]

Hey, vaccines do not stop you from SPREADING disease, they are intended to prevent you from CONTRACTING the disease that you were vaccinated against.

Noted that you did not answer the questions I was asking about the mandatory vaccines.

Oh, how about the ways vaccine pushers will lie to people? In most places it's a matter of getting the waiver form that you do not wish to vaccinate.

How about the capacity of an individual to get accurate information, and weigh the pros and cons for each vaccine to decide for themselves?

Do you really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

I'm curious, are you opposed to just the Measles vaccine or others as well? What about more serious diseases like Polio?

 

[KokomoJojo]

I'm curious, are you opposed to just the Measles vaccine or others as well? What about more serious diseases like Polio?

statistics show that less vaccines create healthier people.

 

[Jetboogieman]

statistics show that less vaccines create healthier people.

I just don't understand this...

How can you be a conspiracy theorist about EVERYTHING.

Moon landings, 9/11, the holocaust, JFK and Vaccinations.

How do you have the mental capacity to deny reality to this extent?

 

[KokomoJojo]

I just don't understand this...

How can you be a conspiracy theorist about EVERYTHING.

Moon landings, 9/11, the holocaust, JFK and Vaccinations.

How do you have the mental capacity to deny reality to this extent?

The scientific method is to base conclusions on available data.





lets see your counter data at which time I will readjust my position accordingly if necessary.

ps: I dont get into nor give a **** about moon landings, and as far as I am aware the vaccination issue is big biz selling a typically useless if not harmful product and is NOT a conspiracy. Nice broadbrush try though.

 

[Mark F]

I just don't understand this...

How can you be a conspiracy theorist about EVERYTHING.

Moon landings, 9/11, the holocaust, JFK and Vaccinations.

How do you have the mental capacity to deny reality to this extent?

CT's tend not to be CT's about just one issue but many issues because the root cause of being a CT is still the same - RDD or Reasoning Deficiency Disorder.

Do you really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

I could name a few, just off the top of my head so yes, absolutely. People who can not process facts can not make informed decisions from them.

 

[Oozlefinch]

View attachment 67180284

Actually, I am not serious at all.

Anybody that knows me in here should know that I do not go off half-cocked following insane conspiracy theories. I have absolutely no belief that this outbreak is anything other then the result of primarily children that have not been vaccinated and are now making other children sick and even will be dying because some individuals refuse to vaccinate their children. In fact, so far over 99% of those who have gotten sick have been vaccinated, and there is only 1 reported case where a child has gotten sick who had been vaccinated (and this is still unconfirmed, but there are rare cases where a vaccination does not take hold, or their immune system is compromised and they still get sick).

But when watching this thread, it quickly becomes obvious who has the ability to think and actually look at information and who presents it in a critical manner, and who simply jumps on the bandwagon in a kneejerk fashion and go off running with whatever they are presented that supports a conspiracy theory. Those that are most skeptical immediately suspect that I am being a devil's advocate here (which I often do - just rarely so obviously), or present solid reasoning. Those without such an ability immediately are like "Yes, it's a conspiracy!"

And it is always the same players screaming for a conspiracy. And I knew that eventually this would come up because in the last week the nutcases on other web sites have started to spread that this is a conspiracy. It is only a matter of time before one of our "regular players" in here started to make those very claims, I decided to beat them to the punch this time.

So here is a song dedication for those out here who actually fell for it.

 

[KokomoJojo]

yes that applies quite nicely! LMAO




Fools do not use data to make their choices.

Truthers do. LOL





Seems your attempt to discredit truthers and CT's turned out to be an embarrassing backfire :lamo

 

[Fledermaus]

Hey, vaccines do not stop you from SPREADING disease, they are intended to prevent you from CONTRACTING the disease that you were vaccinated against.

Noted that you did not answer the questions I was asking about the mandatory vaccines.

Oh, how about the ways vaccine pushers will lie to people? In most places it's a matter of getting the waiver form that you do not wish to vaccinate.

How about the capacity of an individual to get accurate information, and weigh the pros and cons for each vaccine to decide for themselves?

Do you really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

If YOU are not vaccinated and YOU get the disease YOU become a risk to EVERYONE AROUND YOU.....

Including those smart enough (or had parents smart enough) to get vaccinations which have waned in effectiveness....

And "accurate information"? You have shown yourself to be markedly incapable of finding "accurate information" about a wide range of subjects.

Do I really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

Based on the number of 9/11 Truthers, Kennedy was shot by the driver-CIA-FBI-etc. / Moon landings faked / Homeopathy / USS Liberty was a False Flag / Colon Cleanings believers I would say a fair amount of people are too stupid to find facts and make an informed decision.

 

[Oozlefinch]

If YOU are not vaccinated and YOU get the disease YOU become a risk to EVERYONE AROUND YOU.....

Including those smart enough (or had parents smart enough) to get vaccinations which have waned in effectiveness....

And "accurate information"? You have shown yourself to be markedly incapable of finding "accurate information" about a wide range of subjects.

Do I really think people so stupid that they cannot find facts and make an informed decision?

Based on the number of 9/11 Truthers, Kennedy was shot by the driver-CIA-FBI-etc. / Moon landings faked / Homeopathy / USS Liberty was a False Flag / Colon Cleanings believers I would say a fair amount of people are too stupid to find facts and make an informed decision.

Interestingly enough, the US military is among the most highly vaccinated group of people in the country. For us, vaccinations are mandated - everything from flu and plague to H1N1 and Smallpox. Some of us (I am one of them) even choose to get the Anthrax vaccinations. And without a doubt we are among the healthiest segment of the population in the entire country. I have not had the flu now for over a decade. I have never had any kind of serious contagious disease since I first put on the uniform in 1983.

And even though we live in close quarters, often times 40-50 living in a single room with shared bath and toilet facilities, the spreading of any disease other then the common cold is very rare. This is because of all the inoculations we get both when we join, as well as updates and new ones every few months.

In fact, I remember in the 1980's when typically every 2-3 years most bases and units had at least one outbreak of Hepatitis. On 2 different occasions in 10 years I was quarantined on base, unable to leave for 2-7 days because of such an outbreak. Not able to leave the barracks, once even having to sleep on the floor for 3 days because I was married and could not go home. But in the 8 years since I rejoined no base I have been on has ever had an outbreak of Hepatitis. This is simply because it is one of the mandatory vaccines we get every year.

And as for vaccines not allowing a disease to spread, that is very true. It is known as "Herd Immunity". The more people who are inoculated, the harder it is for a virus or bacteria to spread through the population. The less people are inoculated, the easier it is for a contagion to spread to others.

This is really a very simple math exercise. If you want to see how fast a contagion can spread without a vaccine, study a virus that has none available. H1N1 early on, SARS, HIV, or even Ebola in Africa. With no vaccination the virus spreads like wildfire. I myself, I have not forgotten how devastating HIV was to segments of our population in the 1980's. Every homosexual male I knew in High School is now dead because of this. And yes, I knew 5. All graduated from Van Nuys High School from 1982-1985. All 5 were dead by 1990 from AIDS. This is what a virus can do in a population that is not vaccinated.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Of course. The self serving partial truth idiocies of the anti medicine brigade are one of the few issues that raise my ire.

nice strawman you build here... the false claim used to build it : vaccine - choice != anti-medicine.

The fact that the proponents use all the dishonest tricks of conspiracy theorists only adds fuel to the fire.

Then how come the "conspiracy theorists" have presented sourced facts and your non-sequitur opinions are sufficient to counter?

The bottom line is their claim that communities should not help the vast majority because of a risk to a small minority.

That's not the argument... and there's so much straw in this one that I can't recognize the original legitimate argument made.

Unfortunately those taking that individual selfish line cannot be forced to face the victims and families they seek to injure. BEFORE they do the harm.

How about those who have been harmed by the vaccine? those with allergies, should we force them to be injected with something that WILL cause a reaction as well "for the greater good"?

And I have no intention of entering into debate with those who cannot get the whole of community risk management issues in perspective.

Don't worry, we all know that you have no intention. Of entering a debate... we all know you like to push your opinions as though they are fact.

I had 1 grandfather and two uncles die early 60's - industrial health caused; my wife has had two bouts of melanoma (and is still here) The 40 years ago treatment was far more invasive than the 4 years ago one; my kids have not had the childhood illnesses I and my peer age kids suffered; few today's kids have the dental problems my generation faced. AND most of those advances have been opposed by the minority who have zero regard for whole of community. The ones who want to ensure that illnesses have sufficient active "carriers" to ensure the disease propagates. And they will not face the reality in that last statement.

Your anecdote, aside from being mostly vague... the parts that are specific do not represent issues that can be impacted by vaccination.

"We don't understand it so we don't want it - so everyone else should suffer" is the catch cry.

Good to see it on this forum mixed in with the 9/11 CT nonsense. The big difference being that there is some partial truths in the anti vaccination hysteria. Partial. Hence my comment - get a grasp of the risk management.

Non-sequitur

THEN - once that is in perspective try to deal with the drug company marketing ethics. But don't get the two arse about. "We don't like the drug companies ethics THEREFORE we will take whatever risks with peoples health by denying them any dug for which the drug companies make a profit".

That's a part of the problem... If we were dealing with angels doing the best in their power to provide truly safe and effective vaccines, there would be some problems and you could weigh the costs.

However, we are dealing with companies that have track records of putting out below standard products, inadequately safety tested, and protected by liability protection. That's how we wind up with cases like the famous factor 8 scandal where merck was CAUGHT knowingly injecting hemopheliacs with HIV tainted drug... then After being caught in America and no longer being able to sell the product in America, rather than destroying the HIV tainted product, shipped the product overseas where they sold it as clean product, and we're caught and convicted for deliberately infecting people with HIV.

But, you are right that the issue of the vaccine companies should not be conflated with effectiveness and safety.

Why use people's heath as the bargaining chip if the objective is reduce drug company profiteering? Surely that is arse up ethics?

[/End Rant] :roll:

(Hey NWO_Spook - that should show you another side to me. :mrgreen

So, you approve of profiteers not being held accountable?

 

[KokomoJojo]

And as for vaccines not allowing a disease to spread, that is very true.

if that is true then:







and how come the death rate for EVERYTHING across the board has dramatically dropped LONG BEFORE the vaccines came out?





the prevention claim is basically ridiculous since there is usually a several day gestation period in which these people have contact with others across the us before anyone even knows they have something.

 

[Fledermaus]

nice strawman you build here...<snipped the anti-vax nonsense>

Bman,

Do you believe YOU have the RIGHT to place others in danger?

 

[Fledermaus]

Interestingly enough, the US military is among the most highly vaccinated group of people in the country. For us, vaccinations are mandated - everything from flu and plague to H1N1 and Smallpox. Some of us (I am one of them) even choose to get the Anthrax vaccinations. And without a doubt we are among the healthiest segment of the population in the entire country. I have not had the flu now for over a decade. I have never had any kind of serious contagious disease since I first put on the uniform in 1983.

And even though we live in close quarters, often times 40-50 living in a single room with shared bath and toilet facilities, the spreading of any disease other then the common cold is very rare. This is because of all the inoculations we get both when we join, as well as updates and new ones every few months.

In fact, I remember in the 1980's when typically every 2-3 years most bases and units had at least one outbreak of Hepatitis. On 2 different occasions in 10 years I was quarantined on base, unable to leave for 2-7 days because of such an outbreak. Not able to leave the barracks, once even having to sleep on the floor for 3 days because I was married and could not go home. But in the 8 years since I rejoined no base I have been on has ever had an outbreak of Hepatitis. This is simply because it is one of the mandatory vaccines we get every year.

And as for vaccines not allowing a disease to spread, that is very true. It is known as "Herd Immunity". The more people who are inoculated, the harder it is for a virus or bacteria to spread through the population. The less people are inoculated, the easier it is for a contagion to spread to others.

This is really a very simple math exercise. If you want to see how fast a contagion can spread without a vaccine, study a virus that has none available. H1N1 early on, SARS, HIV, or even Ebola in Africa. With no vaccination the virus spreads like wildfire. I myself, I have not forgotten how devastating HIV was to segments of our population in the 1980's. Every homosexual male I knew in High School is now dead because of this. And yes, I knew 5. All graduated from Van Nuys High School from 1982-1985. All 5 were dead by 1990 from AIDS. This is what a virus can do in a population that is not vaccinated.

Invokes 100X like....

I too have lost friends to HIV/AIDS....

 

[spud_meister]

thats easy, its an ONGOING SURVEY, so just round up all your low class and poor friends and have them turn over their medical reports to tip the scales back. :lamo

Oh so vaccinatable diseases are selective and affect everyone but upper and middle class huh?

If 8000 people fart when eating beans there are pretty good odds that no farting will be the exception to the rule not the rule!

hilarious post! Got more?

We're not talking about vaccinatable diseases, we're talking about comparing common diseases in a small, specifically selected group to the rest of the population. The study hasn't controlled for any other factors. I could do the exact same study to prove masturbation causes blindness. All I would have to do is ask people who developed blindness whether they ever masturbated before going blind, and then compare that to rate to the rate of masturbation in the general population, and I would find that masturbation rates are higher in people with blindness because the results of the general population would be skewed by the religious sorts that don't masturbate.

You cannot compare a small, non-representative group to the population at large, because you're not accounting for any other factors.

 

[BmanMcfly]

if that is true then:







and how come the death rate for EVERYTHING across the board has dramatically dropped LONG BEFORE the vaccines came out?





the prevention claim is basically ridiculous since there is usually a several day gestation period in which these people have contact with others across the us before anyone even knows they have something.

There has never been research done concerning "herd immunity" (never mind that it presupposes that people are cattle / other herd animal). The issue is more of a herd mentality.

Also, the graph that was presented is a gross oversimplification, consider;
- people getting the illness they are vaccinated against
- people vaccinated shedding the virus and acting as a vector while they themselves are immune (re: typhoid mary, or other asymptomatic carriers)
- people vaccinated where the immunity was not gained (contrary to claims depending on vaccine represents 15-30% of vaccinated people) (there have been outbreaks, like in Canada where it was EXCLUSIVELY vaccinated people that got sick)
- people not vaccinated with natural immunity
I could go on...


Further, yes... This group of people (often the same group of people who supported importing ebola cases) view those that are not "protected" as an offense. Shows that they know at some level that the vaccines do not work as advertised, shows how little they care about freedom and self - determination as well.

 

[Fledermaus]

There has never been research done concerning "herd immunity" (never mind that it presupposes that people are cattle / other herd animal). The issue is more of a herd mentality.

Also, the graph that was presented is a gross oversimplification, consider;
- people getting the illness they are vaccinated against
- people vaccinated shedding the virus and acting as a vector while they themselves are immune (re: typhoid mary, or other asymptomatic carriers)
- people vaccinated where the immunity was not gained (contrary to claims depending on vaccine represents 15-30% of vaccinated people) (there have been outbreaks, like in Canada where it was EXCLUSIVELY vaccinated people that got sick)
- people not vaccinated with natural immunity
I could go on...


Further, yes... This group of people (often the same group of people who supported importing ebola cases) view those that are not "protected" as an offense. Shows that they know at some level that the vaccines do not work as advertised, shows how little they care about freedom and self - determination as well.

CLUE: Vaccines are NOT 100%

CLUE: Vaccines can lose effectiveness over time

BTW - You graph shows DEATHS due to the diseases...

CLUE: Penicillin and other drugs developed reduced the FATALITY rate.




Why do you insist on the right to infect others?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Also, the graph that was presented is a gross oversimplification, consider;

I can break it down even more simply.

First of all, there was a Scarlet Fever Vaccine created, in 1924 and distributed starting in 1926. It was used for about 15 years, and if you look at his chart, you see in 1926 a huge decrease. But also this fact proves the statement at the top of the chart is as bogus as the rest of the information presented. The vaccine was discontinued in the mid 1940's (the same time the death rate fell to almost nothing) because of one simple thing: Penicillin.

Being a bacteria instead of a virus, Scarlet Fever was largely wiped out by the advent of antibiotics. So the vaccine became largely pointless and discontinued because this disease was highly susceptible to antibiotics.

However, the WHO and other organizations are again working on a vaccine for Scarlet Fever, because of more recent strains that have become antibiotic resistant.

Maybe some people should put a bit more work into actually conducting research, and less time in cherry packing charts trying to back up their mistaken beliefs. Especially when the chart claims something as obviously wrong as there was never a vaccine created for Scarlet Fever.

In fact, the creators (husband and wife George and Gladys Dick) were nominated for the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1925 for their creation of both a test and vaccine, which combined largely eradicated Scarlet Fever.

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...e&q=scarlet fever vaccine george dick&f=false

 

[LagerHead]

Yep, the drug companies would rather you spend $100 on their vaccine than the tens of thousands of dollars to treat your unvaccinated child. That makes perfect sense.

Here's a little thing I like to call "education" for those that still believe the anti-vax...nonsense.

Myths That Keep People From Vaccinating Their Kids

 

[BmanMcfly]

I can break it down even more simply.

First of all, there was a Scarlet Fever Vaccine created, in 1924 and distributed starting in 1926. It was used for about 15 years, and if you look at his chart, you see in 1926 a huge decrease. But also this fact proves the statement at the top of the chart is as bogus as the rest of the information presented. The vaccine was discontinued in the mid 1940's (the same time the death rate fell to almost nothing) because of one simple thing: Penicillin.

Being a bacteria instead of a virus, Scarlet Fever was largely wiped out by the advent of antibiotics. So the vaccine became largely pointless and discontinued because this disease was highly susceptible to antibiotics.

However, the WHO and other organizations are again working on a vaccine for Scarlet Fever, because of more recent strains that have become antibiotic resistant.

Maybe some people should put a bit more work into actually conducting research, and less time in cherry packing charts trying to back up their mistaken beliefs. Especially when the chart claims something as obviously wrong as there was never a vaccine created for Scarlet Fever.

In fact, the creators (husband and wife George and Gladys Dick) were nominated for the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1925 for their creation of both a test and vaccine, which combined largely eradicated Scarlet Fever.

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...e&q=scarlet fever vaccine george dick&f=false

Ok, but you are assuming that I am in dispute over the concept of minute exposure to create immunity. that's simply not the case... same with snake handlers often dosing themselves with minute amounts of venom, and gradually increasing that amount, in this way even if they do get bit they will not be affected.

Besides that, it's the chart YOU presented...

 

[Oozlefinch]

Ok, but you are assuming that I am in dispute over the concept of minute exposure to create immunity. that's simply not the case... same with snake handlers often dosing themselves with minute amounts of venom, and gradually increasing that amount, in this way even if they do get bit they will not be affected.

Besides that, it's the chart YOU presented...

Actually, it is a chart that Koko presented, not me. And you have to realize, I see nothing that Koko posts - so can only respond when somebody else comments on his crazy rantings. His chart is primarily wrong simply because there was a vaccine unlike what he claims, and the disease was largely eradicated by antibiotics, it did not "simply vanish".

 

[NWO_Spook]

Actually, I am not serious at all.

Anybody that knows me in here should know that I do not go off half-cocked following insane conspiracy theories. I have absolutely no belief that this outbreak is anything other then the result of primarily children that have not been vaccinated and are now making other children sick and even will be dying because some individuals refuse to vaccinate their children. In fact, so far over 99% of those who have gotten sick have been vaccinated, and there is only 1 reported case where a child has gotten sick who had been vaccinated (and this is still unconfirmed, but there are rare cases where a vaccination does not take hold, or their immune system is compromised and they still get sick).

But when watching this thread, it quickly becomes obvious who has the ability to think and actually look at information and who presents it in a critical manner, and who simply jumps on the bandwagon in a kneejerk fashion and go off running with whatever they are presented that supports a conspiracy theory. Those that are most skeptical immediately suspect that I am being a devil's advocate here (which I often do - just rarely so obviously), or present solid reasoning. Those without such an ability immediately are like "Yes, it's a conspiracy!"

And it is always the same players screaming for a conspiracy. And I knew that eventually this would come up because in the last week the nutcases on other web sites have started to spread that this is a conspiracy. It is only a matter of time before one of our "regular players" in here started to make those very claims, I decided to beat them to the punch this time.

So here is a song dedication for those out here who actually fell for it.

Thank you, my faith in the universe is restored! Actually, I suspected you were working the audience.

 

[ozeco41]

Which was why both of us "protected our arses"** WITHOUT blowing the lid on a good bit of poeing:

Oz, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was reserved in my posting for I suspect the OP is Poeing us (he still might be).

My thoughts also....

Well executed Oozlefinch - in AU we call it "berleying the water" - blood, guts and offal spread on fishing waters to attract fish.

It worked.

** Both AU resident so "arses" is the spelling - we are not referring to "donkeys"

 

[BmanMcfly]

Actually, it is a chart that Koko presented, not me. And you have to realize, I see nothing that Koko posts - so can only respond when somebody else comments on his crazy rantings. His chart is primarily wrong simply because there was a vaccine unlike what he claims, and the disease was largely eradicated by antibiotics, it did not "simply vanish".

Oh... different chart. Regardless, I posted no charts, just added comments to.