Mass DNA study to find killer of Marianne Vaatstra (killed and raped aged 16)

[Peter King]

Now Marianne Vaatstra was found raped and murdered in 1999 and even though Dutch police have done a lot of investigation and already DNA tested 900 people, the killer of this young girl was never found.

The police are almost certain that the killer is a local man and in an unprecedented move, the police has asked 8,000 people who lived within a 3.5 mile radius of the murder scene to voluntarily donate DNA. These were all the men who were between 16 and 60 who lived within the 3.5 mile zone from the murder scene at the time of the murder. The police can then try if they can trace the killer through familial DNA from one or more people from the 8,000 men who were asked to voluntarily participate.

Yesterday the operation started with the 3,300 people in the first group of people asked to volunteer their DNA. In one day 2,300 people came forward to have their DNA swatch taken to further the investigation. The other 1,000 can still go to several posts to have their DNA samples taken and the rest that after 2 weeks have still not volunteered their DNA will get a home visit from where they will be asked if they want to participate in the testing or not. Some people will have grown too old to go to one of the 7 sites where the samples are to be taken and some will have moved away from the area and they will get a personal visit from the testing agency.

Then the Dutch Forensic Institute will compare all taken DNA samples with that from the killer in the hope to find a familial link to the killer and with that the police and the prosecution office will try and arrest/convict the killer of Marianne Vaatstra.

 

[Peter King]

The last day of the voluntary DNA donation day for the people that were called up was yesterday. In total more than 89% of the people called up went to give their DNA.

Hopefully this will lead to results and lead to the arrest and conviction of this low life killer.

 

[Sarcogito]

That is quite an interesting way to go about it. It is voluntary, so I guess I don’t have a problem with it. But if they are trying to narrow it down through familial DNA, why only test the men? Why not test the women also? Maybe there is some genetic aspect I am missing.

 

[radcen]

The last day of the voluntary DNA donation day for the people that were called up was yesterday. In total more than 89% of the people called up went to give their DNA.

Hopefully this will lead to results and lead to the arrest and conviction of this low life killer.

I would want to politely decline. Even if I were innocent. I don't believe in the "...if you have nothing to hide..." argument, and distrust the system partially because they use that guilt trip often as a way around Constitutional protections*. Problem is, anyone who does enforce their right to decline is automatically elevated to suspect status even if it was only a principle-based decision regarding one's Constitutional rights. It's a no-win situation for those who are asked.

BTW: I hope they catch the perpetrator also, I'm just not a big fan of fishing expeditions.

*- I am aware this case in not in the US, and that the US Constitution does not apply, but I am approaching it as if it were when giving my thoughts as it would apply if it were here and me.

 

[joko104]

I'd agree IF it clear samples and records of the sample would be destroyed afterwards - and believed that. If so, I would but won't like it and would not continue doing so if that had become a routine investigation practice.

 

[Peter King]

That is quite an interesting way to go about it. It is voluntary, so I guess I don’t have a problem with it. But if they are trying to narrow it down through familial DNA, why only test the men? Why not test the women also? Maybe there is some genetic aspect I am missing.

I did not know the answer as to why only men so I went to the page from the prosecution service about this investigation and in the "most asked questions" section I found the answer. The prosecutors write:

Why are only men asked to give their DNA?

Off course it is possible to go a paternity study with the DNA of women, children and elderly. The chance for success is believed to be greatest with the participation of the selected group of men who are in the target group.

 

[radcen]

I did not know the answer as to why only men so I went to the page from the prosecution service about this investigation and in the "most asked questions" section I found the answer. The prosecutors write:

Why are only men asked to give their DNA?

Off course it is possible to go a paternity study with the DNA of women, children and elderly. The chance for success is believed to be greatest with the participation of the selected group of men who are in the target group.

To me, that's a non-answer. I interpret that as, "Men are the only group that will not trigger loss of public support for the plan.". IOW: Everybody knows men are evil, and thus ALL suspect.

 

[Rainman05]

Not much point in it being a volunteer program if after 2 weeks the rest will be forced to hand over their DNA.

Also, this sets a dangerous precedent for law enforcement.

 

[MaggieD]

Now Marianne Vaatstra was found raped and murdered in 1999 and even though Dutch police have done a lot of investigation and already DNA tested 900 people, the killer of this young girl was never found.

The police are almost certain that the killer is a local man and in an unprecedented move, the police has asked 8,000 people who lived within a 3.5 mile radius of the murder scene to voluntarily donate DNA. These were all the men who were between 16 and 60 who lived within the 3.5 mile zone from the murder scene at the time of the murder. The police can then try if they can trace the killer through familial DNA from one or more people from the 8,000 men who were asked to voluntarily participate.

Yesterday the operation started with the 3,300 people in the first group of people asked to volunteer their DNA. In one day 2,300 people came forward to have their DNA swatch taken to further the investigation. The other 1,000 can still go to several posts to have their DNA samples taken and the rest that after 2 weeks have still not volunteered their DNA will get a home visit from where they will be asked if they want to participate in the testing or not. Some people will have grown too old to go to one of the 7 sites where the samples are to be taken and some will have moved away from the area and they will get a personal visit from the testing agency.

Then the Dutch Forensic Institute will compare all taken DNA samples with that from the killer in the hope to find a familial link to the killer and with that the police and the prosecution office will try and arrest/convict the killer of Marianne Vaatstra.

Oh, interesting. It pays to read the whole post!! Looking for a familial connection. Brilliant.

This has got to cost a fortune.

Personally, I think everyone's DNA should be taken at birth. It'd save a whole lot of time and money. Bring on the conspiracy theorists!!

 

[Peter King]

I would want to politely decline. Even if I were innocent. I don't believe in the "...if you have nothing to hide..." argument, and distrust the system partially because they use that guilt trip often as a way around Constitutional protections*. Problem is, anyone who does enforce their right to decline is automatically elevated to suspect status even if it was only a principle-based decision regarding one's Constitutional rights. It's a no-win situation for those who are asked.

BTW: I hope they catch the perpetrator also, I'm just not a big fan of fishing expeditions.

*- I am aware this case in not in the US, and that the US Constitution does not apply, but I am approaching it as if it were when giving my thoughts as it would apply if it were here and me.

I have looked up some of your questions (they are also in the "often asked question" section:

If I do not participate, will I then be seen as a suspect?

No. Participation is on a voluntary basis. If you refuse to participate you will not be seen/elevated to the level of a suspect. A suspect is someone who according to the law has been found to be a suspect based on facts and relevant circumstances. Not participating in the test is not one of those circumstances that can lead or can be seen as suspicious.

Will I be informed that my DNA has been destroyed?

Legally it is mandated that the given DNA material and the profiles that have been created from the DNA material must be destroyed. Of this destruction all participants in the entire paternity study will be informed.

Is it possible that you can store my DNA profiles? Then I will never have to participate in such an investigation.

No, that is not legally possible. Your DNA and DNA proflies will be destroyed when the investigation is completed.


In the Netherlands the government can be forced to protect the civil privacy rights of people and will be told which privacy sensitive information can and cannot be stored by the government or by companies. Companies can be fined huge fines if they break the privacy rules.

The organization which protects it is called the CBP (Organization for the protection of privacy data) and that the legal task to judge whether individuals and organizations (among them the government) respects the law "Protection Privacy Sensitive Data". They also oversee that the Law Police-data, the law municipal basic administration and all other laws pertaining to issues of "keeping/saving privacy data" are followed.

 

[MaggieD]

I have looked up some of your questions (they are also in the "often asked question" section:

If I do not participate, will I then be seen as a suspect?

No. Participation is on a voluntary basis. If you refuse to participate you will not be seen/elevated to the level of a suspect. A suspect is someone who according to the law has been found to be a suspect based on facts and relevant circumstances. Not participating in the test is not one of those circumstances that can lead or can be seen as suspicious.

Will I be informed that my DNA has been destroyed?

Legally it is mandated that the given DNA material and the profiles that have been created from the DNA material must be destroyed. Of this destruction all participants in the entire paternity study will be informed.

Is it possible that you can store my DNA profiles? Then I will never have to participate in such an investigation.

No, that is not legally possible. Your DNA and DNA proflies will be destroyed when the investigation is completed.


In the Netherlands the government can be forced to protect the civil privacy rights of people and will be told which privacy sensitive information can and cannot be stored by the government or by companies. Companies can be fined huge fines if they break the privacy rules.

The organization which protects it is called the CBP (Organization for the protection of privacy data) and that the legal task to judge whether individuals and organizations (among them the government) respects the law "Protection Privacy Sensitive Data". They also oversee that the Law Police-data, the law municipal basic administration and all other laws pertaining to issues of "keeping/saving privacy data" are followed.

Nice job.

12345

 

[Peter King]

To me, that's a non-answer. I interpret that as, "Men are the only group that will not trigger loss of public support for the plan.". IOW: Everybody knows men are evil, and thus ALL suspect.

I am sorry, but that is a very legit answer IMHO. It is much easier to ask all the men who lived in the area where the crime took place within a certain age group than to just go around and ask everybody. The statisticians must have investigated this and maybe if DNA studies were cheap and done real easy they might have asked women/children/elderly too.

And in the Netherlands there would also not be an issue with public support if more than just the men would have been called to give their DNA. IOW, the idea that all men are evil does not live in the Netherlands and everyone knows that these people are innocent and just are helping in the investigation.

 

[Peter King]

Oh, interesting. It pays to read the whole post!! Looking for a familial connection. Brilliant.

This has got to cost a fortune.

Personally, I think everyone's DNA should be taken at birth. It'd save a whole lot of time and money. Bring on the conspiracy theorists!!

Yes, it is costing a fortune but the state/police and prosecution are willing to do this in order to find justice for this girl/the family of this girl.

 

[MaggieD]

Yes, it is costing a fortune but the state/police and prosecution are willing to do this in order to find justice for this girl/the family of this girl.

I'll put my money on there being more behind it than that. They could have sought (found) that same justice in the same way 10 years ago. It's been available and in use since 2003.

 

[tessaesque]

That is a LOT of money to spend on a 13 year old cold case.

 

[Peter King]

I'll put my money on there being more behind it than that. They could have sought (found) that same justice in the same way 10 years ago. It's been available and in use since 2003.

Yes, and there has already been DNA investigation on 900 men a few years back.

 

[radcen]

I have looked up some of your questions (they are also in the "often asked question" section:

If I do not participate, will I then be seen as a suspect?

No. Participation is on a voluntary basis. If you refuse to participate you will not be seen/elevated to the level of a suspect. A suspect is someone who according to the law has been found to be a suspect based on facts and relevant circumstances. Not participating in the test is not one of those circumstances that can lead or can be seen as suspicious.

They say that, and that is the "correct" answer, but I don't believe them. To some extent I believe that it is unavoidable human nature to be suspect of a person who doesn't cooperate. I'm one of the most mindful people I know regarding this issue, and even I catch myself thinking that way at times.

I do believe that they wouldn't officially raise such a person to suspect, but I also believe the notion would stick in the backs of their minds.

Will I be informed that my DNA has been destroyed?

Legally it is mandated that the given DNA material and the profiles that have been created from the DNA material must be destroyed. Of this destruction all participants in the entire paternity study will be informed.

That would help, if I were asked.

I am sorry, but that is a very legit answer IMHO. It is much easier to ask all the men who lived in the area where the crime took place within a certain age group than to just go around and ask everybody. The statisticians must have investigated this and maybe if DNA studies were cheap and done real easy they might have asked women/children/elderly too.

And in the Netherlands there would also not be an issue with public support if more than just the men would have been called to give their DNA. IOW, the idea that all men are evil does not live in the Netherlands and everyone knows that these people are innocent and just are helping in the investigation.

We disagree. I believe it is a balance of statistics and public relations.

 

[Peter King]

That is a LOT of money to spend on a 13 year old cold case.

In the Netherlands all unsolved murders remain open forever. Seven years ago, the police did a large search for the remains of Marjo Winkens, a woman that disappeared in 1975. The rumors were that she was killed by a worker on a road crew who were working on a large new road. There was never any real evidence that this was true but at the time there were no reasons to dig up the road on rumors. In 2005 the road in question was being renewed and the police searched sections of the road where she was rumored to be buried (they found nothing).

And even now, if new evidence is reported they will re-start the investigation in any unsolved case.

The same goes for the Natalee Holloway case, it may be stalled right now but if new evidence is found the investigation will re-start.

 

[radcen]

In the Netherlands all unsolved murders remain open forever. Seven years ago, the police did a large search for the remains of Marjo Winkens, a woman that disappeared in 1975. The rumors were that she was killed by a worker on a road crew who were working on a large new road. There was never any real evidence that this was true but at the time there were no reasons to dig up the road on rumors. In 2005 the road in question was being renewed and the police searched sections of the road where she was rumored to be buried (they found nothing).

And even now, if new evidence is reported they will re-start the investigation in any unsolved case.

The same goes for the Natalee Holloway case, it may be stalled right now but if new evidence is found the investigation will re-start.

Same here in the US. There is no statute of limitations regarding murder. However, except for some cases that a particular detective takes a personal interest in, very few old cases get revived unless new evidence drops in their lap.

 

[Peter King]

Same here in the US. There is no statute of limitations regarding murder. However, except for some cases that a particular detective takes a personal interest in, very few old cases get revived unless new evidence drops in their lap.

That is the good thing of living in a small country, people do not tend to forget and keep reminding the police and the publican again and again.

Also people have a tendency (suspects that is) to voluntarily come forward and deliver themselves to the police station if his pictures/information has been brought into the public arena.

Last week 6 people were shown on the Dutch version of America's most wanted. It was video of people suspected of beating up 2 people badly. The next morning the press reported that all six had turned themselves into the police so that they could be questioned/arrested.

 

[Excon]

At some point the costs must out weigh the need to find a guilty party.
This seems like it here.



As for the DNA.
If it was blind, meaning that numbers were used and kept confidential accept of course if there was a match, I have no problem with it be voluntary.
eg: You sign up at one place and receive a number, then you go to another and summit for testing with the number.

And regardless of what they say, if everyone but one person got tested and no one matched, that one person most certainly would come under scrutiny.


And frankly I hope this effort fails so they do not implement it again in the future.

 

[Superfly]

The last day of the voluntary DNA donation day for the people that were called up was yesterday. In total more than 89% of the people called up went to give their DNA.

Hopefully this will lead to results and lead to the arrest and conviction of this low life killer.

I'd venture to guess that the murderer wasn't in that 89%. He'd be stupid to voluntarily offer up his DNA, knowing he'd be found guilty.

 

[radcen]

I'd venture to guess that the murderer wasn't in that 89%. He'd be stupid to voluntarily offer up his DNA, knowing he'd be found guilty.

I hear what you're saying, but a surprisingly high percentage of guilty people actually do cooperate.

 

[Peter King]

I'd venture to guess that the murderer wasn't in that 89%. He'd be stupid to voluntarily offer up his DNA, knowing he'd be found guilty.

That is why they are looking for familial DNA rather than his DNA. They hope his father/brother/uncle/nephew will be in the test pool of DNA suppliers and that in this way they can find out who the killer is.

 

[Excon]

That is why they are looking for familial DNA rather than his DNA. They hope his father/brother/uncle/nephew will be in the test pool of DNA suppliers and that in this way they can find out who the killer is.

It is a waste of money even if they find a connection.
There is absolutely no need to go through such an expense to solve on e crime.
It just isn't reasonable.