• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Look out Conservative Radio - Air America is Here

Che said:
weird, sounds kind of like what cons said to me when I challenged Iraq having connections with Osama and having WMDs before the war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

guess I was wrong, huh? :roll:

Or that the insugency is in it's last thows.
Or the war will pay for itself (latest estimate 2 trillion)
Or that Bush can spy on American citizens because he says he can
Or Tom DeLay is innocent (Dubya)
Or those aluminum tubes can be used for nukes
Or tax cuts benefit everyone
Or the Clean Skies Initiative is good for the environment
Or the Budget Reconcilliation Bill reduces the deficit
Or "Heckuva Job Brownie"
Or Terry Shiavo is a few therapy sessions away from dancing with the Bolshoy Ballet
Or By the year 2042, the entire [social security] system would be exhausted and bankrupt.

I'm just getting warmed up.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
First off Bush landed that jet on the aircraft carrier himself, he was flying the ****ing plane, second off, the Rathergate story is an outrageous lie it was a totally baseless accusation much the same as every other accusation that has been levied against this President.


Got proof of the bolded part? The document MAY not have been authentic, but the basis of the story has not been proven false.
 
BWG said:
Got proof of the bolded part? The document MAY not have been authentic, but the basis of the story has not been proven false.

I have to agree, I doubt seriously they let the president land on the carrier, he flew much different aircraft, not to mention the danger of losing our president in a time of war!:shock:
 
Che said:
weird, sounds kind of like what cons said to me when I challenged Iraq having connections with Osama and having WMDs before the war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

guess I was wrong, huh? :roll:

Weird, for the record Osama did have connections to Iraq it's all in the 9-11 Commission Report and the Weekly Standard article Case Closed, not to mention the new Steven Hayes story which when confirmed is going to put all of you people, who have made the "no connection between Saddam and Islamic-terrorism," statements, in your places. Oh, and Iraq did have WMD's that, at this time, are still unaccounted for, where'd they go? I don't know, but Syria's right next door, Syria's government is ba'athist just like Saddam's Iraqi regime , and hay trucks convoys were seen moving from Iraq to Syria just pre-invasion, that's weird.
 
BWG said:
Got proof of the bolded part? The document MAY not have been authentic, but the basis of the story has not been proven false.

lmfao what the hell is that supposed to mean??? I love that logic: "We have no evidence that the AWOL story has a shread of veracity to it and the only evidence we did have turned out to be a pack of fuc/king lies and yet the accusation still has merrit."

Give me a break that's the most ridiculous piece of b.s. reasoning I've ever heard, this is how you libs reason: "well the story may not have been true but we all know it was true anyways so the fact that it was untrue doesn't matter."


A lie is a lie any way you cut it partna Rather is a lier.
 
hipsterdufus said:
I could care less what Bush did in the 70's. It's about as important as Clinton's BJ.

For the record. Mary Mapes, Producer of the CBS story, still is convinced that the story was and is accurate.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/11/10/DI2005111001414.html

You can look at a lot of the Docs CBS used for the story at http://truthandduty.com


http://www.awolbush.com/



http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F30E13FD3E5D0C738EDDA00894DC404482

Well good for that senile old bitch I doubt she could remember what she ate for breakfast let alone what happened 30 years ago.

Why do you think Rather got fired??? Or do you believe that retirement b.s. that they fed to the public? Rather got shitcanned for being a partisan hack and now everybody knows what a piece of **** he really is.
 
Last edited:
Deegan said:
I have to agree, I doubt seriously they let the president land on the carrier, he flew much different aircraft, not to mention the danger of losing our president in a time of war!:shock:

Ok he didn't land it . . . but:

Bush said he did take a turn at piloting the craft.

"Yes, I flew it. Yeah, of course, I liked it," said Bush, who was an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating from Yale University in 1968.


And look what Hanoi Kerry had to say about Bush giving a morale boosting speech to the returning troops:

"The president's going out to an aircraft carrier to give a speech far out at sea ... while countless numbers of Americans are frightened stiff about the economy at home," said Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, who is seeking his party's presidential nomination.

what a ****ing deushebag.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/bush.carrier.landing/
 
Last edited:
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Weird, for the record Osama did have connections to Iraq it's all in the 9-11 Commission Report and the Weekly Standard article Case Closed, not to mention the new Steven Hayes story which when confirmed is going to put all of you people, who have made the "no connection between Saddam and Islamic-terrorism," statements, in your places. Oh, and Iraq did have WMD's that, at this time, are still unaccounted for, where'd they go? I don't know, but Syria's right next door, Syria's government is ba'athist just like Saddam's Iraqi regime , and hay trucks convoys were seen moving from Iraq to Syria just pre-invasion, that's weird.

Okay Trajan I honestly doubt that the 9/11 commision report says Osama has connections with Iraq. If you show me a link then I will think about taking your warmongering rant seriously.

Syria, of course! Bingo! Of course Syria has them. Duh! what would they want more than to be invaded by the US and to possibly sanctioned by the rest of the world. Total logic here. Hay trucks! Hay trucks! which ass did you pull that one out of Trajan? If you want anyone to take your conspiracy theories seriously than plaese give us a link! It can even be Fox News! But even they can't come up with WMDs being hidden inhay Trucks being spotted
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
First off Bush landed that jet on the aircraft carrier himself

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Ok he didn't land it

So, you are a self professed LIAR? :rofl
 
Che said:
Okay Trajan I honestly doubt that the 9/11 commision report says Osama has connections with Iraq. If you show me a link then I will think about taking your warmongering rant seriously.

9-11 Commission Report said:
Paragraph #327 on page 61
Bin Ladin was also willing to explore possibilities for cooperation with Iraq, even though Iraq’s dictator, Saddam Hussein, had never had an Islamist agenda—save for his opportunistic pose as a defender of the faithful against “Crusaders” during the Gulf War of 1991. Moreover, Bin Ladin had in fact been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army.

Paragraph #328 on page 61
To protect his own ties with Iraq,Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad’s control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam.There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.

Paragraph #329 on page 61
With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request.55 As described below, the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.

Paragraph #347 on page 66
In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the ini tiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.

Paragraph #348 on page 66
Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.

More proof of the links:

Case Closed
From the November 24, 2003 issue: The U.S. government's secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.
by Stephen F. Hayes
11/24/2003, Volume 009, Issue 11

OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp
and yet more still:

Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17

THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp
 
Last edited:
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Well good for that senile old bitch I doubt she could remember what she ate for breakfast let alone what happened 30 years ago.

Why do you think Rather got fired??? Or do you believe that retirement b.s. that they fed to the public? Rather got shitcanned for being a partisan hack and now everybody knows what a piece of **** he really is.

Senile old bitch? Here's her pic.
sitebanner.jpg


Look, I sense you despise CBS because Edward R. Murrow outed your hero Joe McCarthy.

As for Rather, CBS caved on this one. Viacom spends millions of dollars lobbying Washington,and they could not afford to have the adminstration or the FCC be their enemy. The story of the "forgery" of the CBS document spread faster than the news of the 12 miners being alive in Sago. No one has EVER proved that the document CBS used was a forgery. EVER.


After spending millions of dollars and months of investigation time, not even Dick Thornburg's investigation proved the document to be a fake. There is a difference undocumented proof, and forgery. Either way, there is a serious problem with Bush's National Guard service, it's an old story.

Bush (Rove) has been at war with the media since day one - the first newsconference. The general effect is to get the corporate media afraid to dig up stories. The administration's strategy has been very effective in silencing the media. I think if they had there druthers, the neo-con men would have Scott McClellan report the news on every network but Fox.

Putting journalists in jail, and trying to control PBS are two other good examples. O'Reilly, on the other hand, or Brit Hume, or Neil Cavuto, or Chris Wallace make newz up on almost a daily basis, and no one at Fox is seems to care.

Here's a few more Franken Pictures from his 5th USO tour:

At Abu Graib:
abughraib0623.JPG

More Abu Graib:
Franken_dog_Abu-Ghraib.jpg

In Baghram
Baghram17showFranken9044.jpg
 
hipsterdufus said:
Senile old bitch? Here's her pic.
sitebanner.jpg


Look, I sense you despise CBS because Edward R. Murrow outed your hero Joe McCarthy.

As for Rather, CBS caved on this one. Viacom spends millions of dollars lobbying Washington,and they could not afford to have the adminstration or the FCC be their enemy. The story of the "forgery" of the CBS document spread faster than the news of the 12 miners being alive in Sago. No one has EVER proved that the document CBS used was a forgery. EVER.


After spending millions of dollars and months of investigation time, not even Dick Thornburg's investigation proved the document to be a fake. There is a difference undocumented proof, and forgery. Either way, there is a serious problem with Bush's National Guard service, it's an old story.

Bush (Rove) has been at war with the media since day one - the first newsconference. The general effect is to get the corporate media afraid to dig up stories. The administration's strategy has been very effective in silencing the media. I think if they had there druthers, the neo-con men would have Scott McClellan report the news on every network but Fox.

Putting journalists in jail, and trying to control PBS are two other good examples. O'Reilly, on the other hand, or Brit Hume, or Neil Cavuto, or Chris Wallace make newz up on almost a daily basis, and no one at Fox is seems to care.

Here's a few more Franken Pictures from his 5th USO tour:

At Abu Graib:
abughraib0623.JPG

More Abu Graib:
Franken_dog_Abu-Ghraib.jpg

In Baghram
Baghram17showFranken9044.jpg

CBS didn't cave Rather took a bullshit story and ran with it right before the presidential election because he's a partisan hack, the letter is an obvious forgery and has been proven as such:

Detailed analysis of authentication issues
No generally recognized document experts have positively authenticated the memos. Several individuals with expertise in typewriters or computer typography regard the documents as forgeries based on typographical analysis. These include Peter Tytell, a document examiner and typewriter expert [84], Thomas Phinney, an Adobe computer font expert [85], and Joseph Newcomer, a computer typography pioneer and Windows typography expert [86]. This conclusion is based in part on analysis of the letterspacing, as follows:

The typography of the Killian documents can be matched with a modern personal computer and printer using Microsoft Word with the default font (Times New Roman) and other settings. Therefore the equipment with which the Killian documents were actually produced must have been capable of matching the typographical characteristics produced by this modern technology.

The letterspacing of the Times New Roman font used by Microsoft Word with a modern personal computer and printer employs a system of 18 units relative to the letter height (em), with common characters being 5 to 17 units wide. (The technology allows even finer variability of character widths, but the 18 unit system was chosen for compatibility with the Linotype phototypesetting and earlier hot-metal versions of the font.) In contrast, the variability of character widths available on early 1970s typewriters using proportional letterspacing was more limited, due to the mechanical technology employed. The most sophisticated of these machines, the IBM Selectric Composer, used a system of 9 units relative to the letter height, in which all characters were 3 to 9 units wide. Less complex machines used fewer widths.
Differences in individual character widths accumulate over the length of a line, so that comparatively small differences become readily apparent. Because of the differing character widths employed, the letterspacing exhibited by the Killian documents (matching that produced by a modern computer and printer) could not have been produced with a mechanical typewriter using proportional letterspacing in the early 1970s. At the time the documents were purportedly created, the matching letterspacing could only have been produced using phototypesetting or hot-metal printing. But it is not a realistic possibility that Killian would have had these documents printed, so it must be concluded that they are modern forgeries.
[edit]
Typographical questions
[edit]
Proportional fonts
One of the initial doubts bloggers raised about the memos was the use of proportional fonts. The majority of typewriters available in 1972 used fixed width fonts, and most of the authenticated documents from the TexANG were typed using fixed width fonts commonly associated with typewriters; one document released by the Pentagon on September 24, 2004 used a proportionally-spaced font somewhat similar to the font used in the Killian memos [87]. Some have suggested that because they are photocopies, the actual font of the Killian Documents may be almost impossible to identify. Various proportional fonts were commonly available on military typewriters of that era. This 1969 letter[88] from Gen. Ross Ayers of TexANG also exhibits proportional spacing, as does this letter[89] of resignation in protest from a TexANG secretary, as does John Kerry's 1967 Navy fitness report[90], as does this 1963 White House memorandum[91]. None of these proportional font examples is the same font as that used on the Killian documents.

Several experts interviewed by the media suggested that the proportional fonts in the documents indicated likely forgery. John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com, stated that word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.[92] Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype, stated "It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with."[93] William Flynn, a forensic document specialist with 35 years of experience in police crime labs and private practice, said the CBS documents raise suspicions because of their use of proportional spacing techniques.[94] The Washington Post also indicated the presence of proportional fonts as suspicious "of more than 100 records made available by the 147th Group and the Texas Air National Guard, none used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents".[95] However, several documents later obtained from the TexANG, including parts of Bush's service record, display proportional fonts. None of these documents used the same proportional font as the CBS documents.

Bill Glennon, a technology consultant in New York City with typewriter repair experience from 1973 to 1985 said experts making the claim that typewriters were incapable of producing the memos "are full of crap. They just don't know." He said there were IBM machines capable of producing the spacing, and a customized key — the likes of which he said were not unusual — for creating the superscript th.[96] Thomas Phinney, program manager for fonts at Adobe Systems responded to Glennon's statement that the memos could not have been produced with either the IBM Executive or Selectric Composer, which had been suggested as possibilities, due to differences in letter width and spacing. [97] Phinney says that each time a typeface was redeveloped for mechanical technologies with different width factors, the width and designs are altered, which is why even if Press Roman had been intended to look like Times Roman, the result is significantly different.

Typewriters with proportional fonts were first introduced in 1941, mass-produced from 1948 onwards, and were in widespread use by 1972. The most common device available in 1972 with proportional font support and similar (though not an exact match) [98] to the font some claim was used in the memos (11-point Press Roman vs. 12-point Times New Roman) is the IBM Selectric Composer. The IBM Executive was the most common proportional-spacing typewriter of the era, and supported a single serifed proportional font that is very different from the Selectric Composer font that most closely matches the font some believe is used in the memos. The Selectric Composer was a "Selectric" in name only—really a low-end typesetting device rather than a typewriter, and cost $3,600 to $4,400 in 1973 dollars ($16,000 to $22,000 in 2004 dollars). (Regular Selectrics were available second-hand for around $150 [99], but could not have produced the documents in question.)

Desktop magazine in Australia analysed the documents in its November 2004 issue and concluded that the typeface was a post-1985 version of Times Roman, rather than Times New Roman, both of which are different in detail to IBM Press Roman. The article did not dispute that superscripts and proportional fonts were available in the 1970s.
 
Last edited:
[edit]
Sophisticated spacing
Several blogs argued that the Killian memos display kerning, a sophisticated character spacing that is ubiquitous with word-processing documents and uncommon in typewriters in 1972. Two of these blogs later retracted the claim of kerning.[100][101] Joseph Newcomer, an expert cited by critics of the memos, asserts that the memos do not display kerning.

Some typewriters that were available at the time, the IBM Executive and the IBM Selectric Composer, were capable of proportional spacing, but not kerning. These typewriters had characters whose spacing varied from one to three units. To backspace over an "M", for example, one pressed the backspace key three times; for an "I", a single backspace. The manual for these typewriters included a table of letters and the number of backspaces required to back up and remove the character with a sheet of correction material.

To produce the effect of kerning with the IBM Executive, the user would have to grasp the carriage and, holding the carriage against its spring tension, strike a letter key with the other hand. On the IBM Selectric Composer, the carriage doesn't move laterally; the type element moves instead. The closest one could come to doing so on the Composer would be to backspace by one of these fixed increments, which would result in the characters overlapping at their edges.

Skepticism from Killian's family and others
Jerry Killian's wife and son argued that their father never used typewriting equipment and would have written these memos by hand. The family also stated that Killian was not known for keeping personal memos and that he had been very pleased with George Bush's performance in his TANG unit.


Earl W. Lively, who at the time was the commanding officer at the Austin TANG facility was quoted in the Washington Times as saying, "They're forged as hell."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate

Rather is just a hack.
 
Formatting
It has been claimed that according to U.S. Air Force practice of the 1970s, the memo dated "04 May 1972" should have had the date formatted as "4 May 72". (Months abbreviated to three characters, leading zeros not used, and only the last two digits of the year until 2000). However, exceptions to these practiced did exist as this 1969 letter[132] from Gen. Ayers regarding Bush demonstrates. Similarly, this 1973[133] official memo from Gen. Straw, regarding an officer involved in the Bush case, is dated "2 February 1973" — writing out both month and year in full. Bush's official flight records are also headed with full year notation.[134]
It has also been claimed that the terminology "MEMORANDUM FOR" was never used in the 1970s. However, Mary Mapes has offered evidence that this 1968 letter[135] regarding Bush from Gen. Staudt uses that same heading, though the first several letters of the word "MEMORANDUM" are obscured in the photocopy.
The abbreviations in this letter are incorrectly formatted, in that a period is used after military rank (1st Lt.). According to the Air Force style manual, periods are not used in military rank abbreviations. However in practice, military ranks are often listed with a period in Air Force documents.[136] For an example of periods used in documents released during the controversy, see the signature of the commander on the official history of Bush's Alamaba unit, as well as several instances in that text.[137]
Killian's abbreviation for Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) includes periods after each capital letter. Allegedly, it would have been unusual to use periods in this acronym. In official documents of the squadron, similar abbreviations are presented with periods, such as E.I. Squadron, which is also often written without periods.[138] In official documents, the phrase is also at times written out in shorthand, such as "Ftr Intcp" rather than with an acronym.[139] The other four acronyms on that same document are used without periods.
In paragraph 1, the phrase "not later than" is spelled out, followed by (NLT). NLT was, and is, a widely recognized abbreviation for "not later than" throughout all military services. However in practice, military documents quite frequently use both the acronym and the full version of the phrase.[140]
According to an ex-Guard commander, retired Col. Bobby W. Hodges, the Guard never used the abbreviation "grp" for "group" or "OETR" for an officer evaluation review, as in the CBS documents. The correct terminology, he said, is "gp" and "OER."[141] In a 1994 DOD document, "grp" is specified as a DOD abbreviation for "group".[142] The "grp" abbreviation is also often used in military practice.[143] Usage in the memos varies; "gp" is used at times.[144] A "T" is used at one point in the acronym for "officer evaluation review". It is not clear what the intent of an extra letter would be (OETR); however, T is situated next to the correct letter, R, on a standard US keyboard.
Lieutenant Colonel Killian's signature element is allegedly incorrect for letters prepared in the 1970s. This letter uses a three-line signature element, which was supposedly normally not used by officers below staff rank. However, in contrast to this claim, see the three-line signature of Major Herber or that of Capt. Currie on separate documents concering Bush's appointment as 2nd Lt.[145] Or, see Heber's signature on Bush's suspension from flying status. [146]
Finally, the signature element is placed far to the right, instead of being left-justified. The placement of the signature element to the right was allegedly not used or directed by Air Force standards until almost 20 years after the date of this letter. However, as contrary evidence, this 1969 memo[147] and this 1971 memo[148] from Gen. Ayers each include a right signature block.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate
 
Last edited:
Independent experts
The majority of independent document authentication experts contacted by the major news media and bloggers have indicated a strong likelihood that the Killian memos are forgeries constructed with the use of modern word processing software and printer technology, and "aged" using multiple generations of copying to blur the characters. Several are "certain" that the documents are fraudulent.

In contrast, Dr. David Hailey, who holds a doctorate in technical communication and is an associate professor and director of a media lab at Utah State University, stated in October 2004 that "evidence from a forensic examination of the Bush memos indicates that they were typed on a typewriter." [151] Hailey's study has been controversial with critics pointing out that Hailey donated $250 to Kerry's campaign; Hailey has also been the subject of an email campaign demanding his dismissal from the university after bloggers alleged that he fabricated portions of the study and made several claims in it that were perceived to be misleading. [152] Dr. Joseph Newcomer, a document expert who produced an extensive analysis asserting the memos were forgeries, called Hailey's study "deeply flawed" [153]. After reading both Hailey's study and Newcomer's analysis, Thomas Phinney, a typography expert employed by Adobe, concurred with Newcomer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate


Case closed they were fakes and Rather is a partisan hack job not a journalist!
 
Again, these arguments don't prove that the documents were fake. They don't prove their authenticity. Dicovering forgeries isn't an exact Science. Forgeries have hung in the great museums of the world for years, unbeknownst to the finest of experts.

It's not like DNA, experts from CBS looked at the docs beforehand and reported them to be authentic, others, like the ones you cited don't.

Still, the big unanswered question remains about Bush's service in the National Guard. The charges are valid, and have never been disproven.

Just like the forgery.
 
hipsterdufus said:
Again, these arguments don't prove that the documents were fake. They don't prove their authenticity. Dicovering forgeries isn't an exact Science. Forgeries have hung in the great museums of the world for years, unbeknownst to the finest of experts.

It's not like DNA, experts from CBS looked at the docs beforehand and reported them to be authentic, others, like the ones you cited don't.

Still, the big unanswered question remains about Bush's service in the National Guard. The charges are valid, and have never been disproven.

Just like the forgery.

Sure thing hip whatever you say.:roll: Proving that they're forgeries doesn't prove that they're fakes??? WTF???:shock:

And as for your big question it's been stated many times that Bush had expressed permission for early release from the Air-National Guard.

The big question is if the charges are based on forgeries then just exactly how are they valid???

Another big question is why do you people keep using forgeries as some sort of evidence?

And the really big question is just who the fuc/k made these forgeries in the first place?!!!!
 
hipsterdufus said:
Again, these arguments don't prove that the documents were fake. They don't prove their authenticity. Dicovering forgeries isn't an exact Science. Forgeries have hung in the great museums of the world for years, unbeknownst to the finest of experts.

It's not like DNA, experts from CBS looked at the docs beforehand and reported them to be authentic, others, like the ones you cited don't.

Still, the big unanswered question remains about Bush's service in the National Guard. The charges are valid, and have never been disproven.

Just like the forgery.


Again yes it does too, it's very easy to tell the difference between a letter typed on a type writer and one that comes from a word processor and again independent experts have declared them to be fakes give it up Hip this sh!t don't fly.

Independent experts
The majority of independent document authentication experts contacted by the major news media and bloggers have indicated a strong likelihood that the Killian memos are forgeries constructed with the use of modern word processing software and printer technology, and "aged" using multiple generations of copying to blur the characters. Several are "certain" that the documents are fraudulent.

In contrast, Dr. David Hailey, who holds a doctorate in technical communication and is an associate professor and director of a media lab at Utah State University, stated in October 2004 that "evidence from a forensic examination of the Bush memos indicates that they were typed on a typewriter." [151] Hailey's study has been controversial with critics pointing out that Hailey donated $250 to Kerry's campaign; Hailey has also been the subject of an email campaign demanding his dismissal from the university after bloggers alleged that he fabricated portions of the study and made several claims in it that were perceived to be misleading. [152] Dr. Joseph Newcomer, a document expert who produced an extensive analysis asserting the memos were forgeries, called Hailey's study "deeply flawed" [153]. After reading both Hailey's study and Newcomer's analysis, Thomas Phinney, a typography expert employed by Adobe, concurred with Newcomer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate
 
The funny thing is that there are many records that are missing. Time intervals that cannot be explained. Much apparent and indubitable tampering with documents has occured. What would we expect of an American Presidential legacy... for he can do now wrong? RIGHT?


Was anyone prosecuted for the crime of forgery?

Was someone denounced for such implications?

Where is the justice?

Where is the jury?

Where is the truth?

Sounds like more abuse of power....

Nobody knows for sure... but the pundits think that they do....

{INSERT redundant partisan diatribe here to further show how empirical knowledge and evidence means nothing to you whatsoever. Sign on the dotted line to present an Oath to defend all things unjustified}

Let's spare us the part where you attempt to get brownie points from the site administrator... eh Trajan?
 
Conflict said:
The funny thing is that there are many records that are missing. Time intervals that cannot be explained. Much apparent and indubitable tampering with documents has occured. What would we expect of an American Presidential legacy... for he can do now wrong? RIGHT?


Was anyone prosecuted for the crime of forgery?

Was someone denounced for such implications?

Where is the justice?

Where is the jury?

Where is the truth?

Sounds like more abuse of power....

Nobody knows for sure... but the pundits think that they do....

{INSERT redundant partisan diatribe here to further show how empirical knowledge and evidence means nothing to you whatsoever. Sign on the dotted line to present an Oath to defend all things unjustified}

Let's spare us the part where you attempt to get brownie points from the site administrator... eh Trajan?

hmm, ya was anybody punished??? OH YA! They shitcanned rather like he was the fuc/king plague.

And you're repeating the same left wing lies that have been circulated about a false story and a set of forgeries and I'm the one who's partisan??? Look in a mirror buddy.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
hmm, ya was anybody punished??? OH YA! They shitcanned rather like he was the fuc/king plague.

And you're repeating the same left wing lies that have been circulated about a false story and a set of forgeries and I'm the one who's partisan??? Look in a mirror buddy.

Rather was shitcanned? Why? Was he "proven" to have done something wrong? Was he convicted as being guilty, by pundits like yourself.... before he was proven Guilty of such things as forgery in a court of law?

You're really good at this justification thing. :rofl

Have you ever even read our constitution (I say our assuming that you're American) .
 
Conflict said:
Rather was shitcanned? Why? Was he "proven" to have done something wrong? Was he convicted as being guilty, by pundits like yourself.... before he was proven Guilty of such things as forgery in a court of law?

You're really good at this justification thing. :rofl

Have you ever even read our constitution (I say our assuming that you're American) .


yaya the liberal montra: "facts are lies, lies are facts, if we just repeat the lie enough times it will become true." Well guess what not anymore, not since we regained the freedom of speech and the freedom of the airwaves. 30 years ago this sh!t woulda stuck but not after the repeal of the fascist "fairness," doctrine. See ya in ''06 the American people know what you guys are all about they're on to your game, it's all over for you, the Democrats are out of power and obsolete, Conservatives now control the Executive, both Houses of Congress, and coming soon to a judiciary near you, the Supreme Court.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
yaya the liberal montra: "facts are lies, lies are facts, if we just repeat the lie enough times it will become true." Well guess what not anymore, not since we regained the freedom of speech and the freedom of the airwaves. 30 years ago this sh!t woulda stuck but not after the repeal of the fascist "fairness," doctrine. See ya in ''06 the American people know what you guys are all about they're on to your game, it's all over for you, the Democrats are out of power and obsolete, Conservatives now control the Executive, both Houses of Congress, and coming soon to a judiciary near you, the Supreme Court.

I'm beginning to think you're a robot Trajan.

Any time somebody mentions justice or constitution... you call them liberals....

It's quite amusing really.

What exactly makes me a liberal besides the fact that I don't like Bush? What is the definition of liberal?

I suppose I must be a liberal for simply asking this question....:rofl

quiet2qk.jpg


Liberal: (snip) protection from arbitrary authority (end snip)


Sounds like your boy Bush is more liberal than me. I have nothing against an arbitrary authority.
 
Last edited:
Conflict said:
I'm beginning to think you're a robot Trajan.

Any time somebody mentions justice or constitution... you call them liberals....

It's quite amusing really.

What exactly makes me a liberal besides the fact that I don't like Bush? What is the definition of liberal?

I suppose I must be a liberal for simply asking this question....:rofl

quiet2qk.jpg


Liberal: (snip) protection from arbitrary authority (end snip)


Sounds like your boy Bush is more liberal than me. I have nothing against an arbitrary authority.


yadyadayada so forged memos and lying to swing public opinion during a Presidential election is constitutional now??? Gimme a break the memos were forged it's been proven your whole argument is based on a lie, just like every other argument I've ever seen you make on this sight.

And by the way it's the Democrats who are all for silencing their political opponents, it's called the Fairness Doctrine which was used continiously to silence the conservative voice throughout the U.S. media.
 
Back
Top Bottom