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Logical argument against Gay Marriage

I don't know Cap. I don't really see that happening.

Gay and marriage are two words that do not go together, like "seaworthy collander".

Somebody figures they are gay? Be gay, not my problem. Want a gay life-partner? Go ahead, none of my business. Want a piece of paper saying your partner gets automatic inheritance benefits and that you can file joint tax returns? I don't care.

I just don't want it called marriage.

But how can anyone prevent them form callin git marriage?

I know lots of gays who already do just that, without all of the legal benefits.
 
I don't know Cap. I don't really see that happening.

Gay and marriage are two words that do not go together, like "seaworthy collander".

Somebody figures they are gay? Be gay, not my problem. Want a gay life-partner? Go ahead, none of my business. Want a piece of paper saying your partner gets automatic inheritance benefits and that you can file joint tax returns? I don't care.

I just don't want it called marriage.

OK. See, I am OK with this. As far as I'm concerned, the word "marriage" should be reserved for religious institutions only. All government sanctioned unions should be called "civil unions" anyway. The fact that this is based on your morals and that you admit that is fine.
 
I asked you a question: is "open marriage" your idea of a successful marriage?

If both people are fine with that, accept it, and it harms no one, sure.

Now, I have asked you a question several times. Please show evidence that gay marriage would denigrate marriage in general. No opinions, no opinions dressed up as facts. Links to research that show how gay marriage would negatively affect marriage in general. If you refuse to comply, you are admitting that all you are doing is trolling unfounded positions, positions that have no basis in evidence, and repeating them because you've got nothing else.

Your turn.
 
OK. See, I am OK with this. As far as I'm concerned, the word "marriage" should be reserved for religious institutions only. All government sanctioned unions should be called "civil unions" anyway. The fact that this is based on your morals and that you admit that is fine.


I could accept that as a reasonable compromise.
 
OK. See, I am OK with this. As far as I'm concerned, the word "marriage" should be reserved for religious institutions only. All government sanctioned unions should be called "civil unions" anyway. The fact that this is based on your morals and that you admit that is fine.

I haven't yet deciphered how that was ever supposed to be a rational position; what problem are your proposing your "compromise" is going to solve and how so?

Marriage is a total institution of which religion and law are elements of. The legal institution and the religious institution are not separate entities; they are branches of the same tree. It is irrational to treat one branch of a tree as though it is not a part of a greater organism. Botanists of your persuasion will not produce lush vegetation, but desert and firewood.
 
I haven't yet deciphered how that was ever supposed to be a rational position; what problem are your proposing your "compromise" is going to solve and how so?

Marriage is a total institution of which religion and law are elements of. The legal institution and the religious institution are not separate entities; they are branches of the same tree. It is irrational to treat one branch of a tree as though it is not a part of a greater organism. Botanists of your persuasion will not produce lush vegetation, but desert and firewood.

With that rationale then the institution of marriage is a violation of the first amendment and should be removed as a public institution.
 
With that rationale then the institution of marriage is a violation of the first amendment and should be removed as a public institution.

Well that was random and unrealted to anything in this thread. I f you ever decide to make an argument please feel free.
 
Well that was random and unrealted to anything in this thread. I f you ever decide to make an argument please feel free.

How? With your rationale marriage is like a tree, made up with religious branches, and legal branches. And in this country that is against the constitution, either you cut off the religious branch, and the only relationship that marriage has with religion is ceremony. Or you cut off the legal branch, and you leave marriage to the churches, and provide a state run equivalent.
 
I asked you a question: is "open marriage" your idea of a successful marriage?

Southern man. I can answer that for you. I would say for many couples the answer is YES. I have met plenty of elderly swingers who have been swinging for over 50 years. Based on my observation, they are as happy and fulfilled as monogamous couples. I do not understand how it relates to the thread, but since you were curious, I felt I could provide you with an answer.
 
I haven't yet deciphered how that was ever supposed to be a rational position; what problem are your proposing your "compromise" is going to solve and how so?

Marriage is a total institution of which religion and law are elements of. The legal institution and the religious institution are not separate entities; they are branches of the same tree. It is irrational to treat one branch of a tree as though it is not a part of a greater organism. Botanists of your persuasion will not produce lush vegetation, but desert and firewood.

Separate them. That way it gives everyone what they want. I disagree that it would create problems, in fact it would solve them. It's like the abortion debate. If a fetus is a human life, why allow abortion for rape/incest? Taking that position is hypocritical. It's a compromise position with valid arguments behind it. Just like elimnating the term "marriage" from government and making it a religious only word.
 
Separate them. That way it gives everyone what they want. I disagree that it would create problems, in fact it would solve them. It's like the abortion debate. If a fetus is a human life, why allow abortion for rape/incest? Taking that position is hypocritical. It's a compromise position with valid arguments behind it. Just like elimnating the term "marriage" from government and making it a religious only word.

Pro-gm claims that they are not trying to change the institution. Now here you are clearly stating the opposite.

No, if that is what gay marriage is about then I passionately oppose it, because marriage is not about giving everyone what they want. I couldn't possibly care less about giving everyone what they want. I only care about what is beneficial and what works as a viable solution to reducing the divorce rate.
 
Pro-gm claims that they are not trying to change the institution. Now here you are clearly stating the opposite.

No, if that is what gay marriage is about then I passionately oppose it, because marriage is not about giving everyone what they want. I couldn't possibly care less about giving everyone what they want. I only care about what is beneficial and what works as a viable solution to reducing the divorce rate.

Ya know, i'll never understand why folks really care about someone's sexual orientation and what they can/cannot participate in because of it, nor do I understand how gay marriage is supposedly the bane of all existence. Two dudes or chicks getting married to each other in, say, Lickskillet, Kentucky doesn't affect me or anyone else in any harmful way, yet the way folks carry on about it, you'd think the world will end if it becomes nationally accepted. Wanna know what would happen if homosexuals are allowed to get married to each other? You'd have more married couples sitting on the couch together eating Haagen dasz and watching reruns of American Idol. That's it! OMG QUICK INSTITUTE TEH DOMA!!@!
 
Ya know, i'll never understand why folks really care about someone's sexual orientation and what they can/cannot participate in because of it, nor do I understand how gay marriage is supposedly the bane of all existence. Two dudes or chicks getting married to each other in, say, Lickskillet, Kentucky doesn't affect me or anyone else in any harmful way, yet the way folks carry on about it, you'd think the world will end if it becomes nationally accepted. Wanna know what would happen if homosexuals are allowed to get married to each other? You'd have more married couples sitting on the couch together eating Haagen dasz and watching reruns of American Idol. That's it! OMG QUICK INSTITUTE TEH DOMA!!@!

....it's as though you think I oppose "marriage" for gays who are raising children.....
 
Real marriage isn't about two people who like to **** and think it would be cool to live together.

Historically, marriage is about family, particularly the production and rearing of children. Statistically, children do better when raised in a home with a mother and father who live together in a committed relationship. Therefore, society has an intrest in fostering the family as the building block of society, for the civilizing of the new generation of barbarians (children).

Even societies that embraced homosexual behaviors (certain ancient Greek city-states) still typically reserved marriage for male-female unions that were expected to produce children.

No, not all straights marry for the purpose of making and raising babies...but most of them end up doing it anyway. Gay marriages NEVER "produce" children without the intervention of a third party, which is biologically inefficient. Understand that I'm talking about the norm, not the exceptions, in referring to straight marriage as family-building... because most are at some point.

Marriage has already been debased enough, in the modern era, with a 50% divorce rate and no-fault divorce. No need to damage it further by calling something that has no historical or biological basis of family-building a "marriage".

Yes, I already know you will not accept this argument. You asked, I answered.


Goshin, I hope you don't mind if I add one thing to this (a point that I've tried to make before.)

The people can come up with all sorts of unions and relationships,... gay, straight, swingers,... whatever.

People are going to do what they are going to do.

And like you said,... many people will become outraged at the things you just posted (marriage is for building families, etc.)

But (it seems) no-one takes the time to look at the fact 'objectively' that the government is not challenged with validating and rewarding every kind of living arrangement the people can fathom.

The government (article 1, section 8) has only the authority to define marriage as the congress sees fit to serve the GENERAL welfare purposes of the nation.

That means they get to exercise judgment over what is in keeping with the "general welfare" and provide incentives for the definition that best meets that expectation.

It's not an act of discrimiation in the sense that those who don't meet the definition are being singled out or punished,... It's an act of discrimination ONLY in the sense that our government (representives elected by the people) have decided that the "one man one woman relationship" is the one that best meets the "general welfare" basis,... as encouraged by the Constitution.

Being treated with indifference is not the same as being discriminated against.
 
....it's as though you think I oppose "marriage" for gays who are raising children.....

And do you oppose marriage for heterosexuals who aren't?
 
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And do you oppose marriage for heterosexuals who aren't?
I oppose it for any couple who is not. I don't care if your mixed-race, same sex, opposite sex, immigrant, elderly, etc. The various identity groups simply do not play into my thought process at all. Only Liberals view politics through the eyes of categorizing everyone into identity groups.

Marriage is not about elevating any given identity group rights over any other. Anywhere you look on the globe, any culture, at any point in history, no matter the veriation it takes marriage is about the raising and socializing of children; therefore any couple raising and socializing children should have access to it, while no couple who is not raising and socializing children should be permitted.

Heteros raising children: yes.
Heteros not raising children: No.

So am I pro or anti hetero rights?

Simply put, I am atheistic on the topic of "rights". I care only for what works and is useful. If gays want to marry, great, show me how they will reduce the divorce rate and subsequent juvenile crime rate, teen pregnancy rate and school drop-out rate and I'm a passionate supporter. Pass it off as "because they wana" and they become nothing more than a distraction, and I tend to treat distractions with hostility.
 
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Marriage is not about elevating any given identity group rights over any other. Anywhere you look on the globe, any culture, at any point in history, no matter the veriation it takes marriage is about the raising and socializing of children; therefore any couple raising and socializing children should have access to it, while no couple who is not raising and socializing children should be permitted.

While your opinion is your own, I disagree with this part of your statement. Marriage is not simply about the raising and socialization of children. It's a form of social insurance, too, when you think about it. One of the problems in society is how to care for an individual when they can no longer care for themselves. If single, an individual with Alzheimer’s or cancer might be fortunate enough to rely on friends or family. But then again, they might not, in which case they will fall under the responsibility of the state -- often at substantial cost. The benefit of a marital partner, for both the individual and society, is to help guarantee that one will not have to rely on the government during times of need. From a purely economic perspective, marriage serves as a form of social insurance. You know the old vow "for richer or poorer, in sickness and health", and for this reason elderly and sterile couples are permitted -- even encouraged -- to marry, not because they will bear children, but rather because marriage promotes individual and societal stability.

Of course marriage is more than just social insurance. It's an expression of love, too. When people decide to wed, it's not usually because they are contemplating the insurance features of marriage, but rather because they are in love and want to make a binding commitment to be together for life. Marriage is not just about procreation and child-rearing. It's a system of insurance and a guarantee of stability, an expression of love and a promise of lifelong companionship. So no, "at any point in history", this is not true, because recent history demonstrates marriage is a more expanded institution besides a vehicle for simply raising kids under the best circumstances.

As an aside, I found your quote, that "Only Liberals view politics through the eyes of categorizing everyone into identity groups" to be nothing but an off-base generalization at best. Conservatives, too, are certainly guilty of such a thing - "America is a christian nation", for example, as well as "democrats are socialists", and the very topic dealt with in this thread, "marriage is between a man and a woman". To claim that one political belief is categorizing people into identity groups while failing to acknowledge the reality that the other does the same thing is simply being partisan.
 
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Premise 1: No kind of marriage license should be recognized by the law
You can't do that.

Marriage is a fundamental right. As a result, governments can't (not won't, but can't) dissolve its inerest in marriage.
 
I agree with you if the couples do plan to have children.
 
I agree with you if the couples do plan to have children.

So an infertile couple shouldn't be allowed to get married?

What about older married couples whose children have moved out? Divorce them? What if all their children tragically died?

What if they're trying to get pregnant but are having trouble? How long do you give them?

Does artificial insemination or adoption count? How about that process where the fetus is gestated in a third party's womb? (i forget what they call it)

What if it's two guys who want to have a child via such a third-party womb?
 
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