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Libertarianism as anarchy.

Gabriel

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It is ironic there is a group of protestors/political thinkers that call themselves anarchist. Often time though the strife they have is over implementation of collectivist/socialist measures. This whole arrangement doesn't sit right with me.

Anarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

"No rulership or enforced authority."[1]
"A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder.) But is bound by a social code ."[2]
"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."[3]
"Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."[4]
"Acting without waiting for instructions or official permission... The root of anarchism is the single impulse to do it yourself: everything else follows from this." [5]
The definition from wikipedia.org looks like a libertarians wish list.

Now there would be some variations in left vs right libertarians.. but clearly they don't have disparaging sentiment towards anarchy as defined. Now whether or not these fringe groups they are really anarchists or not.. but clearly if they believe they are anarchist they should be voting for libertarian politicians. Ironically that is the republicans prerogative.

My question is what are these self professed anarchist demonstrating for? They are already being represented.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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It is ironic there is a group of protestors/political thinkers that call themselves anarchist. Often time though the strife they have is over implementation of collectivist/socialist measures. This whole arrangement doesn't sit right with me.

Anarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The definition from wikipedia.org looks like a libertarians wish list.

Now there would be some variations in left vs right libertarians.. but clearly they don't have disparaging sentiment towards anarchy as defined. Now whether or not these fringe groups they are really anarchists or not.. but clearly if they believe they are anarchist they should be voting for libertarian politicians. Ironically that is the republicans prerogative.

My question is what are these self professed anarchist demonstrating for? They are already being represented.
Anarchism is not the same as libertarianism.
Libertarianism contains an authority structure that is purposefully limited.

Anarchism is the absence of a state authority.
 

Gabriel

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Anarchism is not the same as libertarianism.
Libertarianism contains an authority structure that is purposefully limited.

Anarchism is the absence of a state authority.
Well this is true. However one only needs to look at policies entrenched in libertarianism such as deregulation and anti interventionist policy to see crossover in philosophy. Small government .. to an anarchist small government is only a step in the right direction. You see what I'm getting at here?
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Well this is true. However one only needs to look at policies entrenched in libertarianism such as deregulation and anti interventionist policy to see crossover in philosophy. Small government .. to an anarchist small government is only a step in the right direction. You see what I'm getting at here?
No, deregulation is an absence of irrational laws and favors.
Contrary to popular belief, almost all instances of corporate monopolization have come from the partnership of government and business.

There is still a legal framework that exists, contract law and the court system can be used to handle 90% of the problems people have with corporations.
 

Deuce

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Yes, libertarians are kinda like anarchists in the same way that ice cubes in my whiskey are kinda like glaciers.
You can also replace "libertarians" with "liberals" and "anarchists" with "communists."
 

Gabriel

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No, deregulation is an absence of irrational laws and favors.
Contrary to popular belief, almost all instances of corporate monopolization have come from the partnership of government and business.

There is still a legal framework that exists, contract law and the court system can be used to handle 90% of the problems people have with corporations.
So your anti corporate America rings well with anarchists no doubt. However that is in theory .. not in practice and everyone knows it. The crossover in extreme individualism and liberatarian philosophy is pretty hard to deny.

Self regulation is a keystone philosophical libertarian argument. Anarchist don't have issues with that. A smaller framework with regards to laws.. less laws, less government, less regulation, less taxation, decentralisation of the federal government etc. Sure you guys can argue over semantics but in the end libertarians just look like moderate anarchist.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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So your anti corporate America rings well with anarchists no doubt. However that is in theory .. not in practice and everyone knows it. The crossover in extreme individualism and liberatarian philosophy is pretty hard to deny.

Self regulation is a keystone philosophical libertarian argument. Anarchist don't have issues with that. A smaller framework with regards to laws.. less laws, less government, less regulation, less taxation, decentralisation of the federal government etc. Sure you guys can argue over semantics but in the end libertarians just look like moderate anarchist.
Nope, anarchism is the absence of state.

Libertarianism still contains the state as a moderator.
It's not the same thing.

Less laws ≠ no laws.
 

Gabriel

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Ironically the only libertarians you would expect to see being anarchist in a protest look more like this.

YouTube - Evidence -- Police provoke Violence at SPP protest
(this is a canadian video however I would not doubt similar things have occured in america.)

Because in reality there is no group more invested in keeping corporate America just the way it is via weakening of your federal regulation, intervention, taxation.. no other group is more interested in handing power over to big business and private enterprise.
 

Gabriel

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Nope, anarchism is the absence of state.

Libertarianism still contains the state as a moderator.
It's not the same thing.

Less laws ≠ no laws.
Like I said you can take it up with anarchist on what you want for policy most.. but they should be represented by a far right group.. not collectivist that want government intervention, regulation of big business, taxation, centralisation of federal powers.. and so on.

I mean you guys have to smarten these buggers up, they are stealing your material.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Ironically the only libertarians you would expect to see being anarchist in a protest look more like this.

YouTube - Evidence -- Police provoke Violence at SPP protest
(this is a canadian video however I would not doubt similar things have occured in america.)

Because in reality there is no group more invested in keeping corporate America just the way it is via weakening of your federal regulation, intervention, taxation.. no other group is more interested in handing power over to big business and private enterprise.
Look it's apparent you don't understand libertarianism and the rise of corporate power through it's partnership with government.

It is well documented, that corporations only gain and retain their massive power through the state.
You just don't understand it and you're already convinced of your argument.
It's fruitless for any of us to continue this discussion.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Like I said you can take it up with anarchist on what you want for policy most.. but they should be represented by a far right group.. not collectivist that want government intervention, regulation of big business, taxation, centralisation of federal powers.. and so on.

I mean you guys have to smarten these buggers up, they are stealing your material.
Government intervention is a right wing political philosophy.

While it is true that anarchists and libertarians are left wing, we are not the same.
As I said before though, you're already convinced you're right.
 

lizzie

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The Libertarian party platform:

Individual Rights
We hold that each individual has the right to
exercise sole dominion over her/his life, and to live in whatever manner she/he may choose, so long as she/he does not violate the equal rights of others. Details.
Government's Role
We hold that where governments exist, they should be stringently limited both in their structure and in their operations. Details.
Civil Order
No conflict exists between the individual's rights to life, liberty, and property, and the government's obligation to maintain civil order. Details.
Social Concerns
Government interference in current social concerns such as pollution, consumer protection, health care delivery, and poverty exceeds the level required for the protection of individual rights. Details.
Defence & Foreign Policy
A Libertarian government would adopt a policy of non-intervention, abstaining totally from foreign quarrels and imperialist adventures. Details.
Trade & Economy
The only proper role of government, in this context, is to protect property rights, enforce contracts, and adjudicate disputes, providing a legal framework for the protection of voluntary trade. Details.
Libertarian Party Objectives and Platform
 

stinagen

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I am personally an anarchist a very left anarchist but i would never vote for a librarian as they put more power in the hands of "the suits"
but than again i would never vote for anyone unless opposing totalitarianism
 
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Gabriel

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Look it's apparent you don't understand libertarianism and the rise of corporate power through it's partnership with government.

It is well documented, that corporations only gain and retain their massive power through the state.
You just don't understand it and you're already convinced of your argument.
It's fruitless for any of us to continue this discussion.
So your saying libertarians are going to cut out crony capitalism? Cut big business donations to politicians via campaign contributions? Cut out the military industrial complex out of the system huh?
 

Barbbtx

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Well this is true. However one only needs to look at policies entrenched in libertarianism such as deregulation and anti interventionist policy to see crossover in philosophy. Small government .. to an anarchist small government is only a step in the right direction. You see what I'm getting at here?
Oh yea, clear as a bell.........like someone who supports social programs like food stamps is because they really like Communism and it's a step in the right direction.
 

Gabriel

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The Libertarian party platform:

Individual Rights
We hold that each individual has the right to
exercise sole dominion over her/his life, and to live in whatever manner she/he may choose, so long as she/he does not violate the equal rights of others. Details.
Government's Role
We hold that where governments exist, they should be stringently limited both in their structure and in their operations. Details.
Civil Order
No conflict exists between the individual's rights to life, liberty, and property, and the government's obligation to maintain civil order. Details.
Social Concerns
Government interference in current social concerns such as pollution, consumer protection, health care delivery, and poverty exceeds the level required for the protection of individual rights. Details.
Defence & Foreign Policy
A Libertarian government would adopt a policy of non-intervention, abstaining totally from foreign quarrels and imperialist adventures. Details.
Trade & Economy
The only proper role of government, in this context, is to protect property rights, enforce contracts, and adjudicate disputes, providing a legal framework for the protection of voluntary trade. Details.
Libertarian Party Objectives and Platform
Thanks for that .. however anarchist would only say .. it doesn't go far enough.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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So your saying libertarians are going to cut out crony capitalism? Cut big business donations to politicians via campaign contributions? Cut out the military industrial complex out of the system huh?
That is the goal but not necessarily the next inevitable step.
I can't make predictions on what, may or may not, happen when libertarians won't be elected.
 

Gabriel

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Oh yea, clear as a bell.........like someone who supports social programs like food stamps is because they really like Communism and it's a step in the right direction.
yes that is similar.
 

Spartacus FPV

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That is absurd, in libertarianism the proper function of the state is for the defense of our rights, which requires a military, police and law courts. Your tired straw-man has been beaten to death here, stop equivocating. Rights require a state, libertarianism is about rights and the proper (limited) functions of the state, anarchy is NOT.
 

lizzie

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Thanks for that .. however anarchist would only say .. it doesn't go far enough.
That's the problem with anarchists.;) Many in the Libertarian party, and/or small-l libertarians fit better into the minarchist category. We don't desire no government, just unintrusive government. Government's role should be to enforce laws, not create and uphold successes and failures.
 

Gabriel

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Government intervention is a right wing political philosophy.

While it is true that anarchists and libertarians are left wing, we are not the same.
As I said before though, you're already convinced you're right.
Well libertarians are a little of both left and right. But philosophically more right because of the bias for individualism. Left wing bias is .. collectivist which is diametrically opposed to anarchy and individualism.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Well libertarians are a little of both left and right. But philosophically more right because of the bias for individualism. Left wing bias is .. collectivist which is diametrically opposed to anarchy and individualism.
Not really.

The X axis is for stateless-full state power, while the Y axis is for collectivism-non collectivism.
 

Kushinator

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There is still a legal framework that exists, contract law and the court system can be used to handle 90% of the problems people have with corporations.
A most likely contributor to the massive size(s) of specific firms is increasing transaction costs. In some cases, this is only natural I.e. Population growth, resource depletion, resource competition etc.... Other instances such as various regulation, taxation, asymmetrical information, etc... are societal imposed costs. For many laws and regulations, the costs outweigh the benefits.

However, forcing litigation to solve disputes can actually increase transaction costs (which lead to greater instances of market concentration) more so than than regulations.

Specific policy must be analyzed both independently and collectively to ensure a proper cost/benefit analysis.
 

Gabriel

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That is absurd, in libertarianism the proper function of the state is for the defense of our rights, which requires a military, police and law courts. Your tired straw-man has been beaten to death here, stop equivocating. Rights require a state, libertarianism is about rights and the proper (limited) functions of the state, anarchy is NOT.
Ok so the key word an anarchist should be latching onto here in your statement is "limited". Again all libertarian party platform moves away from powerful centralised federal government on all fronts. I am only having a time understanding why they are confused about who they should be trying to support on election day.
 
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