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Libertarianism: a case study in consequences

Technocratic

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Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground | WPSD Local 6 - News, Sports, Weather - Paducah KY | Local

Easy to see how a private fire department model would work or...well not work. They will only put out the fires of the homes who pay, and if you don't pay, the firemen let your house burn down. :lol:

Being the faithful Libertarian rugged individuals they were, the residents tried to use their own personal Libertarian-Standard-issue Garden Hoses as the fee-contingent service stood by and watched.

Good old American Libertarian ethics. Inspiring creativity and ingenuity among the citizenry. That, and extortion. ONly when the fire went to a "paying customer" for that year, did the fighters put out the fire...in the field.

LoL.

Epic failure of the service model that a private business would use. The exact consequence everyone predicted would happen if it were adopted.
 
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tacomancer

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Thank God nobody was trapped in the house :shock:
 

Deuce

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That's better than some damned government-run socialized fire department raising my taxes! *crosses arms*
I mean, I'm homeless now and the insurance company told me to go screw myself because this damage was "preventable," but at least I'm not some liberal stealing money from people who actually work for a living.
 
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RightinNYC

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This is a city fire department that provides fire services to people located in the city. If people outside the city want to buy coverage, they can do so. This guy didn't.

It sounds like the problem stems from the fact that the city doesn't have legal authority to tax people outside the city limits for fire services.
 

Technocratic

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LoL. This is the type of system that Libertarians claim they want to make universal, not only for this, but other public services, as well.

What's next? If you don't pay the subscription fee, the police will watch you get raped? Oops, too bad!

Another reason I loathe libertarians.
 

Technocratic

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This is a city fire department that provides fire services to people located in the city. If people outside the city want to buy coverage, they can do so. This guy didn't.

It sounds like the problem stems from the fact that the city doesn't have legal authority to tax people outside the city limits for fire services.


That's ultimately irrelevant, given it's the TYPE of system that caused this to happen. DOesn't matter if government adopted it or not. This is the result of a framework for service advocated by Libertarians. You don't see this happen in a tax funded system, but you do in a service model fee based one.

A private business whom you didn't pay would do the same thing. Libertarians want to adopt the above system everywhere.
 
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RightinNYC

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LoL. This is the type of system that Libertarians claim they want to make universal, not only for this, but other public services, as well.

What's next? If you don't pay the subscription fee, the police will watch you get raped? Oops, too bad!

Another reason I loathe libertarians.

Seems like a bit of a sweeping generalization.
 

RightinNYC

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That's ultimately irrelevant, given it's the TYPE of system that caused this to happen. DOesn't matter if government adopted it or not. This is the result of a framework for service advocated by Libertarians. You don't see this happen in a tax funded system, but you do in a service model fee based one.

A private business whom you didn't pay would do the same thing.

Although this guy lives outside a city, he presumably has some sort of local government. That local government failed to provide any sort of fire service, tax-funded or otherwise. The only reason either party in this story got any help was because of the service fee system. Rather than lambasting the service fee system for not helping out the first guy, why not criticize the government for not providing said services?
 

Technocratic

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Although this guy lives outside a city, he presumably has some sort of local government. That local government failed to provide any sort of fire service, tax-funded or otherwise. The only reason either party in this story got any help was because of the service fee system. Rather than lambasting the service fee system for not helping out the first guy, why not criticize the government for not providing said services?


Because the point of this thread is to show the failure of a model that Libertarians want to adopt? Even if part of the problem was the lack of a public counterpart, Libertarians do not want a public counterpart in the first place. They want everyone to be beholden to private corporate fee services like what this city offers. That they did not have a public service, and had to rely on a private one, is the problem and the whole point. It doesn't work, and for the reasons critiqus of the fee model said it wouldn't.
 
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tacomancer

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WTF is wrong with this county that they don't have a fire department? The lack of such a basic service is very messed up.
 

RightinNYC

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Because the point of this thread is to show the failure of a model that Libertarians want to adopt? The point is that a private service model scaled up would do what this city did outside its boundaries. That they did not have a public service, and had to rely on a private one, is the problem. We should not thereore adopt a private system or a public system that allows this model.

So you're taking a sad story involving a family whose local government failed them and using it as a jumping off point to attack a position that some libertarians hold in relation to some issues. Okay.
 

tacomancer

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While this is ultimately a failure of local government, it does illustrate why a private fire department would not work. I think both you guys have valid points.
 

RightinNYC

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WTF is wrong with this county that they don't have a fire department? The lack of such a basic service is very messed up.

...

The incident is shining new light on a policy that's got a lot of people upset. But Union City Fire Chief Kelly Edmison is defending the firefighters in South Fulton. "If somebody is trapped in the house we're going to go because life safety is number one but we can't give the service away," Edmison said. "It's not South Fulton's problem. It's not Union City's problem. It's the county's problem. There is no county fire department."

...

It's a situation Edmison said isn't ideal but a necessity to keep fire departments operating. "If we just waited to charge when we went out there, you'd be working on a per-call basis," he said. "With no more calls than there are, the money wouldn't be there in a sufficient source to buy the equipment you need." He and other fire chiefs in Obion County who charge subscription fees for county residents know they're in a tough spot. "It's like car insurance," Edmison said. "I wish I could wait until I have an accident until I pay my premium on my car insurance, but it doesn't work that way. So why should the fire service be looked at anything different?"

More fallout following house fire | WPSD Local 6 - News, Sports, Weather - Paducah KY | Local

It sounds like it's the result of there being too few people spread out over too much of an area to support a fire department.
 

tacomancer

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Technocratic

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So you're taking a sad story involving a family whose local government failed them and using it as a jumping off point to attack a position that some libertarians hold in relation to some issues. Okay.

Yes. It makes perfect sense. This is a case study of what would happen more frequently in the Libertero-verse where police, fire, and justice are private subscription services. Even if it's applied by the government now in limited cases, Libertarians want everyone to live in this mad max anarchy of privatization.
 
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tacomancer

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Yes. It makes perfect sense. This is a case study of what would happen more frequently in the Libertero-verse where police, fire, and justice are private subscription services. Even if it's applied by the government now in limited cases, Libertarians want everyone to live in this anarchy of privatization.

You should look up at what went on with the private fire departments in NYC in the 1800s.
 

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You should look up at what went on with the private fire departments in NYC in the 1800s.

OH, and the private detective agencies ;)

Wasn't it cool how big rich agencies could hire Pinkertons to infiltrate unions and other groups and dispense "justice" for whomever paid the fee? Sounds like Libertopia.
 

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There should be either a Federal, State or Local Ordinance making it a Felony for any Fire Department paid for with any tax money not to put a fire out that they are capable of reaching.

Most Fire Departments have mutual aid agreements to attend fires outside their normal area of responsibility and it should be the law of the land.
 

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Yes. It makes perfect sense. This is a case study of what would happen more frequently in the Libertero-verse where police, fire, and justice are private subscription services. Even if it's applied by the government now in limited cases, Libertarians want everyone to live in this anarchy of privatization.

On the other hand, if everybody were forced to pay less taxes, they could better afford privatization of services themselves.

Maybe if this guy's income taxes weren't going to earmarks in Nebraska he would have the money to afford a private fire-fighting service.

There's a few things me and RightNYC agree on. This is one of them. This isn't about the tragedy of having a libertarian society. This is about the tragedy of having a local government that's incapable of fulfilling the needs of it's constituents.
 

Technocratic

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On the other hand, if everybody were forced to pay less taxes, they could better afford privatization of services themselves.

Maybe if this guy's income taxes weren't going to earmarks in Nebraska he would have the money to afford a private fire-fighting service.

There's a few things me and RightNYC agree on. This is one of them. This isn't about the tragedy of having a libertarian society. This is about the tragedy of having a local government that's incapable of fulfilling the needs of it's constituents.


This is indeed a tragedy of both. The failure of government and the failure of the service mechanism Libertarian trumpet. People should not be held hostage by services. I can handle my cable being cut off because I refuse to pay ever increasing blls for less service, but what's next? If you miss your police fee, they let you get raped? Libertaianism is absurd.

The only people who do not see the problem with Libertarianism...are Libertarians. Then again, the nuts in the asylum don't know they're crazy, either.
 
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Technocratic

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Are you sure?
Because last time I checked my guidebook to libertarianism, it didn't say that.

Anarcho-capitalists are down the hall, to the right.


Absolutely sure. Many Libertarians are anarcho-capitalists using the term "Libertarians" as a clown costume. Those who aren't, are only slightly less extreme, but retardless, many Libertarians advocate this model of public service based on the same principles less extreme ones hold, but don't.

The ones who do not just aren't following their ideology to its logical conclusion. They are like moderate Christians, who are cherry pickers of ideology. I have even less regard for the moderate Libertarians, because they can't even apply their ideology consistently. They go "well, let's stop here, but not there!" Taxation THEFT!!! except for this and that!"
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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Absolutely sure. Many Libertarians are anarcho-capitalists, and those who aren't, are only slightly less extreme. Many Libertarians advocate this model of public service based on the same principles less extreme ones hold.

I'd say most advocate that the federal government not provide most/many/more than a few public services but I'd disagree that most don't believe in funding a fire department through taxation.
 
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