Liberals owe Rep. Joe (You Lie) Wilson an apology

[The Prof]

because no health care for illegal immigrants means no health care for illegal immigrants

unless you're obama's hhs

obama lied

 

[ashurbanipal]

It seems to me the problem with Rep Joe's outburst is not the content of the outburst, but the context. It would have been equally bad for a Democrat to yell "you lie" when Bush was making the SOTU address and mentioning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

It seems to me the problem with Rep Joe's outburst is not the content of the outburst, but the context. It would have been equally bad for a Democrat to yell "you lie" when Bush was making the SOTU address and mentioning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

No doubt, that is part of the issue, but the content is also part of the issue. Obama said his plan did not apply to those who are here illegally. That is a factual statement in that his plan did specifically exclude illegal immigrants. Conservatives are trying to call Obama a liar because even though his plan excluded illegal immigrants, some medical facilities may still treat illegal immigrants and try to get reimbursed illegally.

 

[The Prof]

some medical facilities may still treat illegal immigrants and try to get reimbursed illegally

nothing illegal about those reimbursements

Of that $28.8 million, "approximately $8.5 million will be used by 25 New Access Point awardees to target services to migrant and seasonal farm workers," Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) Spokeswoman Judy Andrews told CNSNews.com. HRSA is a part of HHS.

Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services.

link above

the problem: Obama: No Health Care For Illegal Immigrants - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

 

[shintao]

Great. Now all they have to do is show that what Obama proposed was what was actually made into law.

And that any benefits actually will go to illegals.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

nothing illegal about those reimbursements

Of course there is. Just like there's medicare and medicaid fraud. If facilities seek reimbursement for patients ineligible under Obama's plan, those medical facilities expose themselves to being charged with fraud. Obama was telling the truth and Wilson proved himself to being a dick.

link above

the problem: Obama: No Health Care For Illegal Immigrants - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

That link is about $29 million dollars being spent to create new medical facilities and to expand some existing ones. It's not for services rendered.

 

[Boo Radley]

because no health care for illegal immigrants means no health care for illegal immigrants

unless you're obama's hhs

obama lied

Again, read what he actually says. Be honest about it.

 

[Boo Radley]

And that any benefits actually will go to illegals.

No, and that is the point being missed by those who mindless go with the lie meme. I think some know better, but as aprtisans want to paint everything worse than it is.

 

[The Prof]

those medical facilities expose themselves to being charged with fraud

LOL!

who's gonna charge em?

sebelius or holder?

ingenuousness, anyone?

 

[The Prof]

Be honest

Obama: No Health Care For Illegal Immigrants - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

LOL!

who's gonna charge em?

sebelius or holder?

ingenuousness, anyone?

I imagine the same folks who currently go after those committing medicare and medicaid fraud.

Still doesn't make Obama a liar. Though Wilson is still a dick.

 

[RiverDad]

Of course there is. Just like there's medicare and medicaid fraud. If facilities seek reimbursement for patients ineligible under Obama's plan, those medical facilities expose themselves to being charged with fraud. Obama was telling the truth and Wilson proved himself to being a dick.

You should look into a reading comprehension remedial class, pronto.

Follow the bouncing ball:

Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) Spokeswoman Judy Andrews told CNSNews.com. HRSA is a part of HHS.

Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services.​

You're presenting your argument as though the decision to not check immigrant status and then seek reimbursement is being made by individual clinics in violation of President Obama false pledge to make illegal aliens ineligible for benefits. The problem with your argument is that it only exists in your own mind. If you had read the OP you would find that Jude Andrews is the spokeswoman for the coordinating agency, which is part of HHS, and she is reporting that "grant recipients WILL NOT CHECK the immigration status" of their patients. She is making reference to an Obama administrative law decision.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

You should look into a reading comprehension remedial class, pronto.

Follow the bouncing ball:

Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) Spokeswoman Judy Andrews told CNSNews.com. HRSA is a part of HHS.

Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services.​

You're presenting your argument as though the decision to not check immigrant status and then seek reimbursement is being made by individual clinics in violation of President Obama false pledge to make illegal aliens ineligible for benefits. The problem with your argument is that it only exists in your own mind. If you had read the OP you would find that Jude Andrews is the spokeswoman for the coordinating agency, which is part of HHS, and she is reporting that "grant recipients WILL NOT CHECK the immigration status" of their patients. She is making reference to an Obama administrative law decision.

Follow the bouncing ball?

:lamo :lamo

What are you, like six years old?

The healthcare bill requires applicants to be here legally ...

SEC. 1101

(d) Eligible Individual.--An individual shall be deemed to be an
eligible individual for purposes of this section if such individual--​

(1) is a citizen or national of the United States or is
lawfully present in the United States (as determined in
accordance with section 1411);​

SEC. 1411.

(b) Information Required To Be Provided by Applicants.--

(1) In general.--An applicant for enrollment in a qualified
health plan offered through an Exchange in the individual market
shall provide--

(A) the name, address, and date of birth of each
individual who is to be covered by the plan (in this
subsection referred to as an ``enrollee''); and​

(B) the information required by any of the following
paragraphs that is applicable to an enrollee.​

(2) Citizenship or immigration status.--The following
information shall be provided with respect to every enrollee:​

To do what you claim, insurance companies and medical facilities will have to expose themselves to fraud in order to file claims for reimbursement for illegal aliens. Even if some do fall through the cracks and receive healthcare, they are not entitled to healthcare funds and will only receive it fraudulently.

That's what Obama said. He was completely truthful. He said this plan does not apply to those who are here illegally; and it doesn't. Not to mention, the facilities you are claiming will treat patients without verifying immigration status have not actually done so yet in regards to the new laws. See what happens when they try to get reimbursed for patients who didn't qualify under section 1101(d).

 

[sangha]

Breaking news:

I'm very sorry that Rep Wilson is a lying bastard

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

No they don't because Obama and his record and his statements have all been very clear on his intent to wrap illegals in the great social welfare hug that is available to all citizens. He wants to make illegal aliens citizens via amnesty, he wants to allow illegal aliens to attend university and be treated as in-state residents, he's opposed to all state efforts that try to address the illegal alien cancer that is ravaging their states, etc.

Actually he isn't. He's made it a priority to enforce deportation laws, and he's broken records doing so. He is the toughest president on illegal immigration since the early 20th century.
Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration

In terms of his support for a path to citizenship, he's no more "pro-illegal" than Bush. Bush supported that as well. So do the majority of the American people. It's the only good idea Bush ever had, and it was also the only idea the rest of the Republican party turned down cold, preferring to blow a few billion building an ineffectual fence instead. :roll:

 

[RiverDad]

Follow the bouncing ball?

:lamo :lamo

What are you, like six years old?

Just trying to help you out because you were concocting fantastic scenarios and ignoring the DIRECTIVE that came from the agency.

The healthcare bill requires applicants to be here legally ...

I don't think you understand the dirty, nitty-gritty, of how government functions.

The agency spokeswoman has forthrightly declared exactly how these centers will operate. Think of it like a version of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Under that scheme, it was illegal for a homosexual to serve in the military, but if a serving homosexual didn't reveal his status, then he could serve. Are you starting to see the picture?

Here the centers are directed NOT TO ASK for information on immigration status. If they don't know the immigration status of the patient then they are not violating the law. This is a strategy of purposeful ignorance which is meant to skirt the law. Obama does this a lot. The Dream Act was shot down in the Senate so Obama decides to implement it via executive order. The Border Fence was passed by Congress, but Obama has decided to stop construction work on it. Obama made a deal (executive order) with Bart Stupak that ObamaCare would not fund abortions and lo and behold, the lying snake broke the deal:

Donovan says the subject of funding abortions under Obamacare is renewed thanks to the decision by the Obama administration to force insurance companies to pay for abortion-causing drugs, along with birth control, under the preventative care section of the law.

“The HHS interpretation underscores again the validity of concerns that Obamacare’s provisions leave many loopholes for direct payments and subsidies for abortions,” Donovan says. “It is clear that abortion-subsidizing and even abortion-funding features permeate the law.”

Donovan confirms that the lack of any prohibition on abortion funding that covers the entirety of Obamacare makes it so the federal government can find creative ways to fund abortions.​

 

[RiverDad]

In terms of his support for a path to citizenship, he's no more "pro-illegal" than Bush. Bush supported that as well. So do the majority of the American people.

Yeah, and a majority of the American voters also want their taxes to be cut and don't want their entitlements reduced.

The fact that people don't want to make hard decisions and don't want to be "the bad guy" shouldn't be surprising. However, when the costs and benefits of granting amnesty are spelled out, the voter position changes. Much depends on how you ask the question.

"do you think that hard-working undocumented workers should be rounded up in the middle of the night and marched out of their homes so that they can be deported to the destitute homelands that they fled at great risk to their lives" is probably going to get a lot of support for Amnesty.

"Are you prepared to see your taxes go up, your children's school become more crowded, and your social security and medicare retirement benefits cut so that illegal aliens, who have been granted Amnesty, can also benefit from the social welfare programs that were instituted to benefit American citizens? Do you support deportation?" Is going to have a far higher level of support.

Fact-free, emotion driven opinion doesn't tell us much. That's exactly what behind wanting taxes cut and benefits untouched positions and also behind sympathy for the illegal aliens.

It's the only good idea Bush ever had, and it was also the only idea the rest of the Republican party turned down cold, preferring to blow a few billion building an ineffectual fence instead. :roll:

It was another of Bush's brain farts and luckily nothing came of it. As for that border fence, if you believe it is ineffective then look to Obama's stopping construction work on it. If it had been completed it would likely be just as effective as other sections of fence. Here's a report from National Pravda Radio:

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector. He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.

The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.

"Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."

Rancher Carol Kimsey, who lives in a valley near the Pacific Ocean on the U.S.-side of the fence, says the border barrier has improved the quality of life in the area.

"It was pretty seriously bad," she recalls of the prefence days. "They were tearing up everything. They'd just go through fences. They didn't care."​

I extend my sympathies to you for it must be a challenge to live every day having to construct your reality so that it is diametrically opposed to the real world. As President Reagan so aptly noted:

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Unfortunately it isn't stopping the people who want to get in the most, and who we want to keep out the most.
US border security

Lower sheer numbers of illegals, but little change in crime. And some areas haven't even seen much reduction. And some of the reduction is actually attributed to how bad our economy is, thus fewer people thinking they can try their luck here.

Consistent enforcement works better than a giant fence. It's also cheaper (since you need the enforcement either way).

Well, there's three options:

1. Make them all automatically citizens
2. Try to deport all of them
3. Middle road (path to citizenship)

#1 is obviously a bad idea for an endless number of reasons. #2 is physically impossible. So that leaves us with #3.

Path to citizenship is the only sane and physically possible option. Not much else to it. :shrug:

Your impression of the "real world" seems to exist solely in your head.

 

[RiverDad]

Consistent enforcement works better than a giant fence. It's also cheaper (since you need the enforcement either way).

The report from National Pravda Radio begs to differ with your assertion. Illegal crossings down by 95%. Preventing them from coming here is far, far more efficient than allowing them in and then having to hunt them down.

Well, there's three options:

1. Make them all automatically citizens
2. Try to deport all of them
3. Middle road (path to citizenship)

#1 is obviously a bad idea for an endless number of reasons. #2 is physically impossible. So that leaves us with #3.

Operation Wetback:

Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions per day. By the end of July, over 50,000 illegal aliens were caught in the two states. An estimated 488,000 illegal aliens are believed to have left voluntarily, for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimated that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas of their own accord. To discourage illicit re-entry, buses and trains took many deportees deep within Mexican territory before releasing them.​

All that's needed is political will.

Path to citizenship is loaded with drawbacks.

1.) We didn't get to choose the immigrants, we gave them veto power. They force themselves into our society.
2.) When we choose immigrants we can demand high standards, choosing immigrants who will add net positive value to US society. What we get with a path to citizenship approach is 20 million high school drop-outs, who when they qualify as American citizens, become HUGE social welfare subsidy cases.
3.) We reward bad behavior and punish law-abiding potential immigrants.
4.) The actual measures proposed are not fair. When it is declared that they will go to the back of the line, all that does is give them immediate legal permission to live and work in the US and delays their ability to attain citizenship, thus denying them the right to vote, serve on juries, and qualify for security clearances. All other facets of live in America are theirs to enjoy.
5.) If "back of the line" actually meant deporting them until such time as every applicant for legal immigration was processed and then readmitting these illegals back into the country legally, the argument would be intellectually honest.
6.) Those 20 million illegals are overwhelmingly high school dropouts. The National Academy of Science calculated that each such illegal actually makes the nation poorer to the tune of $122,000 for their lifetime (which doesn't include their getting benefits designed for citizens and permanent residents) and this represents a $2.4 trillion cost to Americans, money that can be better spent for hip replacements for granny, school lunches for little becky, clean water treatment for small towns, etc.

 

[Thorgasm]

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Breaking news:

I'm sure George Soros is quite proud.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Just trying to help you out because you were concocting fantastic scenarios and ignoring the DIRECTIVE that came from the agency.

They say charity begins at home -- you should help yourself out. I concocted nothing as I was referring to the law and not some rightwing website.

I don't think you understand the dirty, nitty-gritty, of how government functions.

The agency spokeswoman has forthrightly declared exactly how these centers will operate. Think of it like a version of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Under that scheme, it was illegal for a homosexual to serve in the military, but if a serving homosexual didn't reveal his status, then he could serve. Are you starting to see the picture?

Here the centers are directed NOT TO ASK for information on immigration status. If they don't know the immigration status of the patient then they are not violating the law. This is a strategy of purposeful ignorance which is meant to skirt the law.

Ignorance does not "skirt the law." Read the law again. I posted it for your benefit. The law requires insurance companies to obtain each member's "citizenship or immigration status," and Obama's health does not reimburse medical costs to those who are not here illegally. That would mean to get reimbursed by the government, immigration status will be required, no matter what Judy Andrews says.

Even if healthcare funds get spent on illegal aliens (which they haven't), Obama was telling the truth. He didn't say illegal aliens couldn't get medical treatment by those who "skirt the law," he said his plan doesn't cover those who are here illegally -- and it doesn't. Obama wasn't lying and Wilson remains a dick.

Obama made a deal (executive order) with Bart Stupak that ObamaCare would not fund abortions and lo and behold, the lying snake broke the deal:

Donovan says the subject of funding abortions under Obamacare is renewed thanks to the decision by the Obama administration to force insurance companies to pay for abortion-causing drugs, along with birth control, under the preventative care section of the law.

“The HHS interpretation underscores again the validity of concerns that Obamacare’s provisions leave many loopholes for direct payments and subsidies for abortions,” Donovan says. “It is clear that abortion-subsidizing and even abortion-funding features permeate the law.”

Donovan confirms that the lack of any prohibition on abortion funding that covers the entirety of Obamacare makes it so the federal government can find creative ways to fund abortions.​

That too is bull****. There is no such thing as an "abortion pill." The drugs you are referring to are "anti-conception" drugs. Meaning they are to be taken within days of having sex in order to prevent conception -- not to be taken after conception as a means of abortion.