LGBT? Why the T?

[rathi]

Most of the people who harass homosexuals also go after transgender folks. Call it inclusion through persecution.

 

[Ben K.]

Most of the people who harass homosexuals also go after transgender folks. Call it inclusion through persecution.

Many homosexual people persecute transgender people. Many transexual people persecute transgender people because in their view they're just playing "dress up" as opposed to surgically solving their birth defect.

 

[Ben K.]

On the contrary, a person who is one sex when they get legally married, and then get a sex change, are now going to be legally married to a person of the same sex as themselves if their state legally changes sex for a person. Without SSM being legal in all the states or with the federal government, these people now have no idea if their marriage is legal or not for any one state they are in or with the federal government.

Tell me, what sexuality would you consider a person having if they were born a man, married a woman, and then had a sex change to become a woman? What sexuality do you think others, including the courts and government, would consider them as having? What about a woman who has a sex change to become a man, then marries a woman? How about legally speaking, what is their sexuality? Would it depend on the state they are in? What if they move to a state that does not recognize their new sex as legal? What if they move to a state that recognizes their new sex as legal, but bans SSM, and they are legally married to a person of the same sex in this new state? Where do these people fall in the scheme of legal marriage?

The SSM issue greatly effects transgendered people, some before and some after the surgery. But it effects the whole group, not just a few members who happen to be homosexual or want to be get married to a person of the same sex, since either before or after the surgery, depending on where they live, they will or could be of the same sex as that person.

In their view, born a woman attracted to women, therefore a lesbian. You can attempt to obscure the differences, but the two issues between gender and identity would remain the same. And generally, whether with homosexuals or heterosexuals, attitututes towards transgendered people are in no way homologous towards attitudes in those groups towards orientation.

 

[roguenuke]

Many homosexual people persecute transgender people. Many transexual people persecute transgender people because in their view they're just playing "dress up" as opposed to surgically solving their birth defect.

So what? Do you think that all people who are ever persecuted really accept everyone else who might be lumped in with them in as a part of a certain group? How often do some Christians claim that other groups of Christians are "not real Christians"?

Whether certain LGB or transsexuals like it or not, when SSM is legal, it will be a good thing for all transgendered people.

 

[roguenuke]

In their view, born a woman attracted to women, therefore a lesbian. You can attempt to obscure the differences, but the two issues between gender and identity would remain the same. And generally, whether with homosexuals or heterosexuals, attitututes towards transgendered people are in no way homologous towards attitudes in those groups towards orientation.

I agree, however, I was asking what you considered their sexuality to be. I also asked what the law would view their sexuality as, since it is the law that would decide whether they are being subjected to discrimination based on things such as their gender or sexuality.

 

[digsbe]

Transgenderism is separate from LGB issues. Altering ones appearance through surgery and wanting to be legally defined as their desired sex is not the same as desiring marriage/family equality for homosexual couples.

 

[MaggieD]

I don't see how gender identity is intrinsically attached to sexual preference. In fact, such a belief seems to go against what LGBs would argue for, that gender commands ones sexual orientation.

To Spiker I'd say it does matter. Debate requires clear terminology to progress and I see no relationship between the two issues.

LGB's don't argue that gender commands one's sexual orientation. They argue the exact opposite.

 

[roguenuke]

Transgenderism is separate from LGB issues. Altering ones appearance through surgery and wanting to be legally defined as their desired sex is not the same as desiring marriage/family equality for homosexual couples.

More states give transgendered people rights to marriage, technically, than those that give same sex couples the right to marry.

The two may have differences, but overall, the way they are treated by certain groups in society is basically the same. And laws that are changed to help one group, are likely, in many cases, to help the other.

For instance, if SSM happens before any cases can be filed against a married same sex transgendered couple or couples concerning their legal gender and their marriage, then there would be no reason for such cases, since legally having SSM available will nullify the issue. However, if a state or some part of the federal government files a suit against a same sex couple because they were an opposite sex couple when they legally got married, and one of them was legally able to change their sex in a state that also bans SSM, prior to having SSM legal, then it is likely that such a case could ultimately lead to the legalization of SSM. Or, as long as the case ended favorably for the transgendered person/people and their spouse(s), the case would certainly help the SSM cause, at the very least.

And transgendered people have families, just like those couples who remain the opposite sex or the same sex from the birth to the death of either of the two within those relationships.

Transgender sexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rathi]

Many homosexual people persecute transgender people. Many transexual people persecute transgender people because in their view they're just playing "dress up" as opposed to surgically solving their birth defect.

I don't think so. The same social or religious arguments that are used against homosexuals are inevitably used against transgender people as well. They are both called "sinful" "unnatural" "mentally broken" ect. There are of course outliers, but then general trends are quite plain.

 

[Ben K.]

LGB's don't argue that gender commands one's sexual orientation. They argue the exact opposite.

Phrased poorly on my part. I agree, they would argue against such a supposition, hence the thread. It would appear that LGB's and many heterosexuals often fall into this trap however by trumpeting an LGBT movement. They think that there must be a link, that sexuality and gender have a relationship, perpetuating the idea that lesbians are more likely to be masculine and male gays are more likely to be effeminate.

 

[Ben K.]

I don't think so. The same social or religious arguments that are used against homosexuals are inevitably used against transgender people as well. They are both called "sinful" "unnatural" "mentally broken" ect. There are of course outliers, but then general trends are quite plain.

And homosexuals often hold these views about transgendered people in my experience, not necessarily "sinful", but the other two definately. It would be interesting to see a study comparing attitudes of heteros and homos to transgenderism.

Transphobia In the Gay Community | The Bilerico Project

I also think that the societal acceptance of homosexuality is far higher than it is for transgenderism.

Gay and transgender individuals continue to face widespread discrimination in the workplace.* Studies show that anywhere from 15 percent to 43 percent of gay people have experienced some form of discrimination and harassment at the workplace. Moreover, a staggering 90 percent of transgender workers report some form of harassment or mistreatment on the job.

Gay and Transgender People Face High Rates of Workplace Discrimination and Harassment

I think the wide disparity reflects how seperate the issues truly are, and how it can't be merely Holy Book thumpers decrying transgenderism as unnatural - a rate of 90% discrimination against transgendered folks would imply that liberal and educated people have low levels of tolerance too. Moreover, does lumping the groups together lead to an honest discussion? We can combine the workplace discrimination against gays and transgendered folks into a discrimination against LGBT dataset, then we'll find that discrimnation against gays is dishonestly high and the inverse is true for transgenderism. How does this help anyone?

 

[Ben K.]

So what? Do you think that all people who are ever persecuted really accept everyone else who might be lumped in with them in as a part of a certain group? How often do some Christians claim that other groups of Christians are "not real Christians"?

Whether certain LGB or transsexuals like it or not, when SSM is legal, it will be a good thing for all transgendered people.

It will matter to the transgendered people depending on how the relevant states define gender and the sexuality of the TG person. So "all" is not quite accurate. Laws on gender identity won't affect people of a particular sexual orientation at all.

 

[roguenuke]

It will matter to the transgendered people depending on how the relevant states define gender and the sexuality of the TG person. So "all" is not quite accurate. Laws on gender identity won't affect people of a particular sexual orientation at all.

No, the laws concerning their legal sex probably wouldn't be changed by fully legalizing same sex marriage. What will change is the fact that it won't matter what sex the state sees the transgendered person as legally as to whether they would be allowed to get married to someone, of whatever sex, that they wanted to get married to. When SSM is just as legal as OSM, a man will be able to marry a woman or a man, and a woman will be able to marry a woman or a man. It won't matter what sex either of them are legally viewed as, because any combination will be allowed by the law.

And those who are already married to a person of the opposite sex before they actually changed their own sex will no longer have to be concerned with whether or not that marriage that was legal will now become void because of their sex change making the couple a same sex couple.

 

[Superfly]

Alot of transgenders don't really want to be lumped into the LGB community, anyway, because the issues they face aren't the same. Out of 100 people surveyed, maybe 5 are transgenders. The rest are LGB. It is harmful for transgenders, also, because they aren't "counted" correctly, which leaves them out of the loop when studies are done, when laws are being passed, and so on. Also, discrimination laws don't really fit transgenders, either, because the laws state that you can't be discriminated against over sexual orientation, and lots of transgenders don't have an issue with orientation. They have an issue with gender identity.

Transgenders are one of the last unprotected classes out there. Discrimination in every form is rampant, and nothing is really done about it, except for a very few states. It's really sad that they face this kind of discrimination, and no one will help them.

 

[Ben K.]

Alot of transgenders don't really want to be lumped into the LGB community, anyway, because the issues they face aren't the same. Out of 100 people surveyed, maybe 5 are transgenders. The rest are LGB. It is harmful for transgenders, also, because they aren't "counted" correctly, which leaves them out of the loop when studies are done, when laws are being passed, and so on. Also, discrimination laws don't really fit transgenders, either, because the laws state that you can't be discriminated against over sexual orientation, and lots of transgenders don't have an issue with orientation. They have an issue with gender identity.

Transgenders are one of the last unprotected classes out there. Discrimination in every form is rampant, and nothing is really done about it, except for a very few states. It's really sad that they face this kind of discrimination, and no one will help them.

I'd wholeheartedly agree. The path to complete acceptance of homosexuality is very, very close with a view to SSM being dealt with in the very immediate future. Gender identity issues are comparably very far off on the radar in those terms, and transgender folk are best off seeking their own path.

 

[Ben K.]

No, the laws concerning their legal sex probably wouldn't be changed by fully legalizing same sex marriage. What will change is the fact that it won't matter what sex the state sees the transgendered person as legally as to whether they would be allowed to get married to someone, of whatever sex, that they wanted to get married to. When SSM is just as legal as OSM, a man will be able to marry a woman or a man, and a woman will be able to marry a woman or a man. It won't matter what sex either of them are legally viewed as, because any combination will be allowed by the law.

And those who are already married to a person of the opposite sex before they actually changed their own sex will no longer have to be concerned with whether or not that marriage that was legal will now become void because of their sex change making the couple a same sex couple.

Yet the issues most affecting transgendered individuals won't be addressed by the LGB movement. Their own identity won't be secured by what they are or are not married to.

 

[Superfly]

I'd wholeheartedly agree. The path to complete acceptance of homosexuality is very, very close with a view to SSM being dealt with in the very immediate future. Gender identity issues are comparably very far off on the radar in those terms, and transgender folk are best off seeking their own path.

Exactly. But when a transgender does seek their own path, and they lobby to get laws passed, you have someone who doesn't understand the difference, who says, "We have gay rights laws already! What more do you want?" and then nothing is done.

 

[Omgitsme]

So in this movement, the first three letters refer to sexual orientation. The T refers to gender identity. It seems to make as little sense as an LGBIP movement (Lesbian, gay, bisexual, indiginous people). Anyone think the transgender movement is riding the coat-tails of the LGB movement? Or can someone explain to me why this alliance exists?

Mostly because lots of people lump us in the same category and because we can help each other out. But you are right being transgendered has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

 

[Omgitsme]

Many homosexual people persecute transgender people. Many transexual people persecute transgender people because in their view they're just playing "dress up" as opposed to surgically solving their birth defect.

Completely true and I cannot understand those people at all.

 

[CariCancel]

So in this movement, the first three letters refer to sexual orientation. The T refers to gender identity. It seems to make as little sense as an LGBIP movement (Lesbian, gay, bisexual, indiginous people). Anyone think the transgender movement is riding the coat-tails of the LGB movement? Or can someone explain to me why this alliance exists?

Transgender is an identity for people who do not associate themselves with the gender they were born with. They get ridiculed and harassed just as much as a homosexual would. Actually, they probably do more so.

 

[roguenuke]

Yet the issues most affecting transgendered individuals won't be addressed by the LGB movement. Their own identity won't be secured by what they are or are not married to.

You do realize that most states allow people to change the name and sex on their birth certificates, right? Only 4 states currently refuse to allow a person to legally change their sex of their birth certificate, Ohio, Idaho, Tennessee, and Texas. And even Texas will do it with a court order.

Legal aspects of transsexualism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sure, transgenders/transsexuals have a little further to go than homosexuals do when it comes to equal rights, especially when it comes to anti-discrimination laws and some issues that are purely transgender issues. But that doesn't mean that they would be completely better off separating themselves entirely from the LGB group. They can fight for their own laws and for laws that would help both groups simultaneously.

I'm not exactly sure why you feel that this is such a big deal. I have a couple of brothers who may one day be sisters. One of my brothers goes to college dressed as a woman, in western NC, and he is accepted. Things are changing, and the more people accept one group, the more people that are at least going to be open to accepting the other group. It isn't like they need to have the same arguments or exact same legal needs across the board to be fighting for things that will help them or even just fighting for rights for each other.

 

[Baltim]

In another forum I frequent the acronym QUILTBANDIT is often used, partly to make sure everybody is included but also as a way of pointing out how daft it is to lump everyone together in one big amorphous sexual gestalt.

Queer
Undecided
Intersex
Lesbian
Transgendered
Bisexual
Asexual
Not telling

Unfortunately, I can't remember what the DIT stands for and can't be bothered going and searching to check.

We also get terms like cissexual and hetero-normative bandied about quite a lot too.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

I don't see how gender identity is intrinsically attached to sexual preference. In fact, such a belief seems to go against what LGBs would argue for, that gender commands ones sexual orientation.

To Spiker I'd say it does matter. Debate requires clear terminology to progress and I see no relationship between the two issues.

But that's not what we argue.

My friend Kimberly (whom I met after seeing her incredible documentary PRODIGAL SONS) was born Paul. After graduating high school in Montana (Paul was, by the way starting quarterback and elected Homecoming King) he moved to San Francisco and became Kimberly (full surgery). Kimberly is now a lesbian working in New York and has been in a relationship with her wife for eight years and recently got married under the New York law.

The one thing that never changed is that Paul was always attracted to women. Kimberly is also attracted to women.

What one is attracted to isn't tied to one's gender at all.

 

[Omgitsme]

But that's not what we argue.

My friend Kimberly (whom I met after seeing her incredible documentary PRODIGAL SONS) was born Paul. After graduating high school in Montana (Paul was, by the way starting quarterback and elected Homecoming King) he moved to San Francisco and became Kimberly (full surgery). Kimberly is now a lesbian working in New York and has been in a relationship with her wife for eight years and recently got married under the New York law.

The one thing that never changed is that Paul was always attracted to women. Kimberly is also attracted to women.

What one is attracted to isn't tied to one's gender at all.

I actually just watched that documentary like 2 days ago.

 

[jambalaya]

But that's not what we argue.

My friend Kimberly (whom I met after seeing her incredible documentary PRODIGAL SONS) was born Paul. After graduating high school in Montana (Paul was, by the way starting quarterback and elected Homecoming King) he moved to San Francisco and became Kimberly (full surgery). Kimberly is now a lesbian working in New York and has been in a relationship with her wife for eight years and recently got married under the New York law.

The one thing that never changed is that Paul was always attracted to women. Kimberly is also attracted to women.

What one is attracted to isn't tied to one's gender at all.

That takes confusion and drama to an entirely new level. It begs the question for me: Can a lot of these people really know themselves or are they reacting to a mental illness? I know it is taboo to use the term mental illness and sexual orientation in the same sentence but mental illness can seriously affect a person's perception on everything. Why would we exclude sexuality? And please, I am not saying homosexuality is a mental illness. Let's get that out of the way.