Let’s Talk Predestination

[Daisy]

IMO confusion is manmade……the first big mistake we make is to personify Satan….we want to envisage him as a being outside of ourselves…..Satan becomes a fall guy that can lead us to think that “the devil made me do it”……the real problem is within and the understandable name for it is the ego. That is what separates us from God. This same principle applies to God also….by personifying God we view Him as an entity totally separate from us yet we quote verses that speak of “the kingdom within”, “being one with God”, “ it is no longer I that speak but Christ within me” etc. We allow the material and the physical to become our reality…..and the spiritual, in most cases, remains only as a theoretical possibility. God is Spirit….one must become spiritual….anyone that thinks that all theologians are spiritual is sadly mistaken….

Scriptures that you base such beliefs on please...

 

[Metanoia]

Scriptures that you base such beliefs on please...

I know that you are troubled by the word ‘ego’ which does not appear in any concordance of the Bible. However if a Bible student focuses on every mention of pride and/or humility you might understand why pride(ego) holds first place amongst the 7 cardinal sins. It is in the scripture…find it read it and then take the next step and allow the Spirit to help process it for you….

 

[Daisy]

I know that you are troubled by the word ‘ego’ which does not appear in any concordance of the Bible. However if a Bible student focuses on every mention of pride and/or humility you might understand why pride(ego) holds first place amongst the 7 cardinal sins. It is in the scripture…find it read it and then take the next step and allow the Spirit to help process it for you….

We're in Theology...if you cannot answer my question biblically I understand...it's an ego/pride thing along with moving the goal posts regarding your previous post...

 

[VySky]

The Golden Chain of Salvation

Something to consider. Being born again is like being born the first time. We did not choose when we were born the first time.


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Key words "HIM"

It is by grace, a gift from God, that you are saved through faith. Man doesn't choose grace. Gifts are given, not requested

If we believe God is sovereign then he is sovereign 100% of the time. Thinking that God looks down the hallway of time and saves those he knows will choose him is making man sovereign. That's just not biblical.

Those he foreknew

1 Peter 1:1-4
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,


Those He Predestined

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Isaiah 59:16
16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation,
and his righteousness upheld him.

Ctd;

 

[VySky]

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Those He Called

John 10:3
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

II Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

John 6:37, 44-45, 65
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Those He Justified

Romans 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Romans 9:11
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Romans 9:23
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

 

[Daisy]

Our gift to God, the only gift we are able to give Him, is our obedience...

 

[Parker_Chess]

There are people who are pre-destined to become Christians but that does not mean that the others are for damnation. God's foreknowledge has no impact on our free will and our ability to cooperate with his grace.

The Calvanistic/Presbyterian view of pre-destination can be debunked by many other supporting scriptures in addition to Church fathers.

But say hypothetically you were pre-destined and one of the elect. You would not consciously know this. So there's no point in dwelling upon this more obscure doctrine.

 

[T25]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?

Honestly I don't believe we can really understand predestination until we are with God. Predestination is a thing but how and why is not possible for us to know at this time, or so I believe.

 

[T25]

There are people who are pre-destined to become Christians...

I believe we are ALL predestined to become followers of Jesus.

On another note, I believe that God does assign us to particular circumstances in this life in order to test and prepare us for our roles in his Kingdom. In that regard I do see predestination at work but how and why some are predestined differently is above my pay grade.

 

[VySky]

Honestly I don't believe we can really understand predestination until we are with God. Predestination is a thing but how and why is not possible for us to know at this time, or so I believe.

Agreed. I accept the Calvanist view as I believe that is what scripture, especially the Book of Romans, tells us. To that end, I also admit I do not know if I am one of Gods elect.

Scripture like the parable of the 4 soils and the 10 virgins shows us there are a majority of those who think they are saved but in actuality are not. Of the 4 soils, only 25% of those who thought they were saved were indeed saved,

When we are at the judgement seat there will be one of two outcomes. Either Jesus will say 'depart from me you workers of lawlessness', or 'well done, good and faithful servant.'.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 25:23
23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

 

[SoccerCoach]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
—-


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?

www.gotquestions.org

The main message of Genesis is autonomy free will and moral development. God doesn't want humans to be like ants or bees. The concept of predestined is just an excuse for failure, " Its not my fault"

 

[Lees]

The main message of Genesis is autonomy free will and moral development. God doesn't want humans to be like ants or bees. The concept of predestined is just an excuse for failure, " Its not my fault"

Predestination and election are truths taught in the Bible. They are not 'an excuse for failure'.

Many disagree with these truths, but that doesn't mean they are not taught in Scripture. They are.

The message of Genesis is 'origins'. And usually man's moral development gets in the way of God. Morality is man's term to define his goodness. God says man has none. (Mark 10:18) (Rom. 3:10)

Lees

 

[SoccerCoach]

Predestination and election are truths taught in the Bible. They are not 'an excuse for failure'.

Many disagree with these truths, but that doesn't mean they are not taught in Scripture. They are.

The message of Genesis is 'origins'. And usually man's moral development gets in the way of God. Morality is man's term to define his goodness. God says man has none. (Mark 10:18) (Rom. 3:10)

Lees

The main message of Genesis is free will and morality not predestination which reduces the human being to the level of an ant. Jews wrote Genesis not Christians who have no idea what it means

 

[Lees]

The main message of Genesis is free will and morality not predestination which reduces the human being to the level of an ant. Jews wrote Genesis not Christians who have no idea what it means

Why shouldn't Christians know what (Genesis) means? Do we not have the Holy Spirit? Just because one is a Jew doesn't mean he knows the Scripture. How silly.

Through ignorance of the Scripture the Jews killed Christ. (Acts 3:17) "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers." Jesus said to the Jews, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (Matt. 22:29)

And to this very day there is judicial blindness upon the Jews concerning Christ and the Scritpures. (Rom. 11:25) "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Are we not in the 'Times of the Gentiles'? (Luke 21:24) "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

The Jews at this time are in no position to be understanding the Scriptures.

Again, the book of (Genesis) is the book of origins.

Lees

 

[VySky]

Let’s look at the book of Joel chapter 2 verse 32.
While everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yet in this scriptures context, the word “everyone” are those ones the Lord calls.

Joel 2:32
32 “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2‬:‭32‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the surviv | English Standard Version Revision 201

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the surviv

bible.com

 

[VySky]

As I’m preparing for this Sunday’s Sunday school class we will be looking at the parable of the sower and the seed. I’m prepared to lead the class to a discussion that often brings out emotions.

In short, otherwise known as the parable of the 4 soils, the lesson Jesus taught was that not everyone who initially accepts Jesus is saved. Making the free will decision to choose Christ is not the core action leading to salvation.

Now we need to ask why?

Why are the 3 soils that are not saved lack the Holy Spirit that for without, eternal damnation awaits?

But wait you say, if one accepts the word of God and repents then they are saved. The parable shows us that’s not true because God did not give them the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2 10-14 tells God chooses who he gives the spirit to. The sinner has no say.

Not even the sinner knows his own heart. Only God does.

 

[LittleNipper]

As I’m preparing for this Sunday’s Sunday school class we will be looking at the parable of the sower and the seed. I’m prepared to lead the class to a discussion that often brings out emotions.

In short, otherwise known as the parable of the 4 soils, the lesson Jesus taught was that not everyone who initially accepts Jesus is saved. Making the free will decision to choose Christ is not the core action leading to salvation.

Now we need to ask why?

Why are the 3 soils that are not saved lack the Holy Spirit that for without, eternal damnation awaits?

But wait you say, if one accepts the word of God and repents then they are saved. The parable shows us that’s not true because God did not give them the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2 10-14 tells God chooses who he gives the spirit to. The sinner has no say.

Not even the sinner knows his own heart. Only God does.

Here are two places you can look regarding this topic, and I do pray they help you: https://www.biblequestions.org/bqar1063.html

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sower? | GotQuestions.org

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sower? Why did Jesus often speak using parables instead of teaching more clearly?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Metanoia]

In short, otherwise known as the parable of the 4 soils, the lesson Jesus taught was that not everyone who initially accepts Jesus is saved. Making the free will decision to choose Christ is not the core action leading to salvation.


Why are the 3 soils that are not saved lack the Holy Spirit that for without, eternal damnation awaits?

But wait you say, if one accepts the word of God and repents then they are saved. The parable shows us that’s not true because God did not give them the spirit.

First of all, good luck with your class….not sure which of the three gospels you are using….maybe all 3 ? I prefer the Matthew version seeing that it is more detailed. When Jesus ‘went out of the house’ meant stepping out into the world which was devoid of the spirit. The multitude, at best, if given the seed(the Gospel) can only have literal understanding. When the multitude had gathered Jesus moved from the seashore to a ship in the Sea of Galilee…a place of depth for the deep teaching…..also the ship can be seen as the Gospel…..location is important here just as it was for the Sermon on the Mount where He spoke from the heights. Both the house and the ship represent separation points from the multitude……not to be lost in the crowd.

In contrast to you I would say that all 4 soils contain the Spirit but that the Spirit has not been wakened in 3 of the soils. The 3 are a progression from worst(least likely) to those with a faint ray of hope….maybe even temporarily exhibiting growth but being overcome by their attachment to the literal…..the third one in particular….like coming close enough to briefly seeing a rose but getting caught by the thorns and end of progress for those.

The good soil are those who through intuition and the Spirit can receive and interpret the Gospel….the ‘fruit’ that the are able to bring forth…..thirty fold…sixty fold….hundred fold….can be understood as the 3 stages of enlightenment…..initiate, adept and master…..it indicates that growth in the Spirit remains necessary in one’s path. I remain skeptical of Christians that claim to be born again and are unable to interpret the parables, Gospel and scripture……with any amount of grace that is given there is still a path that must be negotiated…….

 

[Daisy]

The sower (Mt 13:3-8; Mr 4:3-8; Lu 8:5-8). There are no clues to the interpretation in the illustration itself, but the explanation is plainly given at Matthew 13:18-23; Mark 4:14-20; and Luke 8:11-15. Attention is focused on the circumstances affecting the soil, or heart, and the influences that can hinder the growth of the seed, or the word of the Kingdom.

Various means of sowing seed were used in those days. One common way was for the sower to carry a bag of seed tied across his shoulder and around his waist; others would form a pouch for the seed from a part of their outer garment. They would scatter the seed broadcast by hand as they walked. Seed was covered as soon as possible, before the crows and ravens could get it. But when the plowman left footpaths between fields unplowed, or if some seed fell on hard ground alongside the road, the birds ate up the seed that fell there. “The rocky places” were not spots where rocks were merely scattered in the soil; but, as Luke 8:6 says, the seed fell on “the rock-mass,” or a concealed rock ledge, on which there was very little soil. Plants from these seeds would soon wither in the sun. The soil where the thorns were had evidently been plowed, but it had not been cleaned of weeds, so they grew up and choked out the newly planted seeds. The stated yields of the productive seeds—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, and thirtyfold—are well within reason. The sowing of seed and the various types of soil were familiar to Jesus’ hearers.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002147

 

[VySky]

n contrast to you I would say that all 4 soils contain the Spirit but that the Spirit has not been wakened in 3 of the soils. The 3 are a progression from worst(least likely) to those with a faint ray of hope….maybe even temporarily exhibiting growth but being overcome by their attachment to the literal…..the third one in particular….like coming close enough to briefly seeing a rose but getting caught by the thorns and end of progress for those.

Interesting interpretation

Within the parable and the explanation from Jesus he does not elaborate on whether there is another chance to be saved. To the contrary, those of the 3 lost soils committed the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by rejecting what they knew to be true.

 

[Metanoia]

Various means of sowing seed were used in those days. The stated yields of the productive seeds—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, and thirtyfold—are well within reason. The sowing of seed and the various types of soil were familiar to Jesus’ hearers.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002147

Jesus wasn’t giving a lesson on crop production…….and He would not be talking about something they were very familiar with. Logic, reason and literal reading and understanding will not unlock the meaning of parables……the spiritual cannot be understood by the material……

 

[Daisy]

Jesus wasn’t giving a lesson on crop production…….and He would not be talking about something they were very familiar with. Logic, reason and literal reading and understanding will not unlock the meaning of parables……the spiritual cannot be understood by the material……

lol...ok...swwooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

 

[Metanoia]

Interesting interpretation

Within the parable and the explanation from Jesus he does not elaborate on whether there is another chance to be saved. To the contrary, those of the 3 lost soils committed the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by rejecting what they knew to be true.

Thanks for your responses. Technically this is a black area for me. John 7:39 tells us that the Spirit had not yet been given at the time of this parable……so not sure it would be blasphemy at this time. It certainly is valid for our time.

 

[Metanoia]

lol...ok...swwooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

Yes, I am laughing also…... Your presentation of optimum planting methods would have been very helpful for wanna be farmers….didn’t really shed light on the parable for me……

 

[Daisy]

Yes, I am laughing also…... Your presentation of optimum planting methods would have been very helpful for wanna be farmers….didn’t really shed light on the parable for me……

Yeah, I get it...you don't get the connection...Jesus spoke in the context that his audience could grasp...as for the meaning, it's explained plainly in the scriptures I cited...Matthew 13:18-23; Mark 4:14-20; and Luke 8:11-15...