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Yeah, so what? God calling doesn’t make those called robots who then must follow the calling like mesmerized rats uncontrollably dancing Pied Piper’s song and uncontrollably following the Pied Piper to their destination. Those called freely choose to follow.
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So? This verse is announcing a necessary condition to come to Jesus. God must “draw” a person to Jesus for the person to come to Jesus. The verse doesn’t announce a sufficient condition to come to Jesus. Hence, a logical inference from this verse is more than a “drawing” is to occur for someone to come to Jesus, such as perhaps the person “drawn” must freely choose to follow.
The word “unless” announced a necessary condition for something to occur and not a sufficient condition for something to occur.
The verse doesn’t state those who are drawn will come to Jesus.
more than just the brain. And, the 3rd party should be the Holy Ghost. James prescribes the method of knowing truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. James 1:5-8, ask God with real intent. Others also admonish we study the scriptures, meditate on them, listen to what others teach, pray to God about it and then wait for the influence of the Holy Ghost to give us the answers. No double-mind either. So, there is nothing wrong with listening and seeking information. It's what we do with it that counts.
I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.
Thoughts?
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The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.
God commands his elect to go out and make disciples so staying at home will not suffice. We are to share the Good NewsBy definition it is. Either god made you saved or he didn't. You have no power over where you're going so religion is pointless. Stop going to church, you're predestined to be saved anyway so it's a waste of time.
Stop with these lazy one liners. Defend your position or attack mine.
My thoughts point to scripture that state we are born dead. Dead to God spiritual and separated from him. We can’t do a thing. It’s God who does the action an we respond.Yeah? And which part of that do you adopt as your own argument? Or do you just want to co-opt the entirety of another’s position rather than provide your own thoughts on the matter?
It's absolutely hilarious to think that you consider yourself a Christian considering how much hate and filth you are constantly spewing around this forum. Do you seriously think the way you act here is Christ-like?God commands his elect to go out and make disciples so staying at home will not suffice. We are to share the Good News
I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.
Thoughts?
—-
The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.
What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org
What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?www.gotquestions.org
My thoughts point to scripture that state we are born dead. Dead to God spiritual and separated from him. We can’t do a thing. It’s God who does the action an we respond.
As it is written
I Kings 19:17-18 NKJV
18) “It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.
18) Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.””
God chose those 7000 men to save. Their works or efforts had no consequence in his decision making. All others God allowed to worship Baal and are condemned to hell
Then free will doesn’t exist and Jesus’s sacrifice was pointless.
Not at all…
At some point, God and Jesus had many possible worlds to create. Our world was a possible world. Some, maybe all, of the possible worlds involved some kind of creation.
God and Jesus knew what is to transpire in the possible worlds before having actualized the possible world. God and Jesus foreknew what would transpire in our possible world. This foreknowledge of our possible world was of the choices made by humanity as a result of free will.
God and Jesus also foreknew how they would interact with humanity and who would be receptive by their own volition. So, God and Jesus chose to reward those who would freely accept the offer of salvation and determined from the beginning how to be saved but not who would choose salvation.
Except humans didn’t exist before the creation of the world so they couldn’t have made choices. By choosing this “possible world”, human choices were made for them and free will doesn’t exist.
Your logic simply doesn’t follow.
A possible world is a world that can logically exist. God may have contemplated any number of possible creations and possible worlds. God’s perfect foreknowledge of the possible worlds is of what would transpire if God actualized the possible world/creation.
Our existence was a possible world at one time, a possible creation in God’s contemplation. This possible world, possible creation, was one in which humans possessed free will. God’s perfect foreknowledge was of what people would freely do and how’d they would freely act in the possible world if actualized by God.
God “choosing” our existence as the possible world to actualize does not result in “human choices were made for them.” God can logically actualize a possible world where free will exists.
It certainly begs the question why the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 19-20) is even necessary.By definition it is. Either god made you saved or he didn't. You have no power over where you're going so religion is pointless. Stop going to church, you're predestined to be saved anyway so it's a waste of time.
Stop with these lazy one liners. Defend your position or attack mine.
Because God said too. Thats why. The elect still need to hear the effective call.It certainly begs the question why the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 19-20) is even necessary.
I think you're missing my point. If they're going to Heaven anyway, they what's the point?Because God said too. Thats why. The elect still need to hear the effective call.
They are going to heaven because God knows when they hear the call, they will respond. However, I don't question Gods will. It will be done regardless what I think.I think you're missing my point. If they're going to Heaven anyway, they what's the point?
There no basis in the Bible for concluding that Jehovah has foreseen all the choices a person will make in his/her life...predestination would mean His wisdom is cold/devoid of feeling...it is not...
Worse yet, the very notion of predestination suggests that Jehovah’s wisdom is cold, devoid of heart, feeling, or compassion. But nothing could be further from the truth! The Bible teaches that Jehovah is “wise in heart.” (Job 9:4) Not that he has a literal heart, but the Bible often uses that term in connection with the innermost self, which includes motivations and feelings, such as love. So Jehovah’s wisdom, like his other qualities, is governed by love.—1 John 4:8.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002041
Does this mean, though, that God has already foreseen the choices you will make in life? Some who preach the doctrine of predestination insist that the answer is yes. However, that notion actually undermines Jehovah’s wisdom, for it implies that he cannot control his ability to look into the future. To illustrate: If you had a singing voice of unparalleled beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time? The notion is absurd! Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that Jehovah will never revoke.—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.
So humans can make choices that god didn’t predict, thereby making god wrong?
It's possibly the most sadistic and immoral theistic concept anyone has ever dreamt up. Someone that believes that believes that god created billions of people for the explicit and intentional purpose of eternal damnnation and torture.
There's nothing that person can do to change his hellish destiny, so free will, morality, and everything else become meaningless. This is really the scummiest gutter of theology and I pity and look down on anyone that actually believes that.
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