Leningradets Died Not from the German Blockade but from Marxist - Stalinist Failure to Send Food, Solonin Says

[joluoto]

i believe in this

That mindless fantasy map again? Did you dig it up on alternatehistory.com or something?

 

[Fledermaus]

That mindless fantasy map again? Did you dig it up on alternatehistory.com or something?

He never says.

 

[Litwin]

That mindless fantasy map again? Did you dig it up on alternatehistory.com or something?

Managing Russia's dissolution | TheHill
thehill.com › 424511-managing-russias-dissolution



9 Jan 2019 — Managing Russia's dissolution. By Janusz Bugajski, opinion contributor 1,168. The views expressed by contributors are their ...

 

[Fledermaus]

Managing Russia's dissolution | TheHill
thehill.com › 424511-managing-russias-dissolution

9 Jan 2019 — Managing Russia's dissolution. By Janusz Bugajski, opinion contributor 1,168. The views expressed by contributors are their ...

Yep. Fantasy.

The link does not show the map...

 

[SheWolf]

i believe in this

So you think races should be seperate?

 

[SheWolf]

a link? why Koba/satlinists did "transport starving children from Leningrad" in the NIGHT - TIME ?

Just do a little research on actual events.

 

[joluoto]

Managing Russia's dissolution | TheHill
thehill.com › 424511-managing-russias-dissolution



9 Jan 2019 — Managing Russia's dissolution. By Janusz Bugajski, opinion contributor 1,168. The views expressed by contributors are their ...

First: this is not the source of the map. The map isn't there.

Second: That map is so weird, why are they bunching the North Caucasus peoples together when they already have separate Republics within Russia, and most of them don't particularly like each other. Also Karelia is today mostly inhabited by Russians, the number of Karelians and other finno-ugric peoples there are today just a minority. For some reason it has Buryatia eating it's neighbors, which is just weird. And why has Komi contorl of the Mari and Mordvin lands? 2/10, lazy effort.

Another fun snippet: The Jewish Autonomous Oblast has less than 1% Jews. It was created a s a Jewish homeland within the USSR, probably to have the Jews as far away as possible (Stalin was paranoid about them). Never really took off, and is now a weird remnant.

 

[Litwin]

Just do a little research on actual events.

as usual the empty words , some facts (who killed L.)
M. Solonin , google T. "
"The Main Directorate of the Sugar Industry, located in Moscow, sent a telegram to the Leningrad office of Sakharosbyt in mid-September 1941 with a demand to ship several wagons of sugar from Leningrad to Vologda, although Leningrad had already been blocked since September 8." The author cites this fact as a curious example of "people's untimely awareness". I suggest paying attention to the direction of the prescribed movement of the high-calorie product. And if the Germans had not cut the roads, would they have taken the sugar to Vologda? Is it just sugar?
The assumption that food was exported from pre-blockade Leningrad seems absurd and blasphemous - but only at first glance, and, moreover, rather clouded by generally binding pathos. According to common sense, we are talking only about a particular case of fulfilling the general instructions of Comrade Stalin: “Do not leave the enemy a kilogram of bread or a liter of fuel. , including non-ferrous metals, bread and fuel that cannot be exported, must certainly be destroyed. " Note - nothing is said about the evacuation of the population from territories where "not a kilogram of bread" should be left. Now, if Hitler and the Wehrmacht soldiers were cannibals in the truest sense of the word, then old Joe would probably have ordered "to drive all the inhabitants to the rear." And so - only cattle."

Марк Солонин - персональный сайт историка. Две блокады

www.solonin.org

 

[Litwin]

It’s astounding that he thinks the two situations are comparable. When Soviet Russia tried to transport starving children from Leningrad, the Nazis bombed the boats. The Nazis murdered starving children in front of their own parents. It was a horrible war crime. The amount of death and terror that existed in Leningrad is not comparable.

M. Solonin , google T. "
Delivering 1,500 tons by air (Berlin stalinists blackade case) is a daunting task. But water transport (L. case) has completely different dimensions. A very small (I could not find any smaller in the modern reference book) river barge ("project R-137") has a carrying capacity of 1,500 tons (total displacement of 1.953 tons). The river barge "project R-165" with a length of 91.6 m and a width of 15.7 m has a carrying capacity of 2,670 tons. One such barge can meet the daily food needs of a millionth city. Yes, in the early 40s the river (lake) fleet of the USSR did not have such ships, but the available ones were not too small. So, in accordance with the GKO decree of August 30, 1941, the people's commissariats of the naval and river fleets were proposed to allocate 25 tugs and 75 lake barges with a carrying capacity of 1,000 tons each for supplying Leningrad. In fact, the barges used in navigation in 1941 had an average carrying capacity (not a displacement, but a carrying capacity) of the order of 400-700 tons. Worse, because of problems with berths, loading and towing along stormy Ladoga, their actual load was reduced to 300-500 tons.
All this abundance of figures boils down to a simple conclusion: 5-6 of the most modest barges per day (Night ) removed all the problems with providing Leningrad with food according to the usual (that is, very modest) wartime standards. Another 3-4 barges could ensure the delivery of the required amount of fuel and ammunition for the front (it was in this proportion - 785 thousand tons of food and 495 thousand tons of fuel, ammunition and weapons - there was a total cargo flow to Leningrad during the entire blockade, from September 1941 to March 1943). That was all that was required for the "transport breakthrough" of the blockade."

Марк Солонин - персональный сайт историка. Две блокады

www.solonin.org

 

[Litwin]

First: this is not the source of the map. The map isn't there.

Second: That map is so weird, why are they bunching the North Caucasus peoples together when they already have separate Republics within Russia, and most of them don't particularly like each other. Also Karelia is today mostly inhabited by Russians, the number of Karelians and other finno-ugric peoples there are today just a minority. For some reason it has Buryatia eating it's neighbors, which is just weird. And why has Komi contorl of the Mari and Mordvin lands? 2/10, lazy effort.

Another fun snippet: The Jewish Autonomous Oblast has less than 1% Jews. It was created a s a Jewish homeland within the USSR, probably to have the Jews as far away as possible (Stalin was paranoid about them). Never really took off, and is now a weird remnant.

map from 1918:

State of Buryat-Mongolia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the region comes back to 1918 borders today (LNG, oil prices, sanctions , cold war with USA/NATO)

 

[joluoto]

map from 1918:

State of Buryat-Mongolia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the region comes back to 1918 borders today (LNG, oil prices, sanctions , cold war with USA/NATO)

1. Many things have changed over the last 100 years
2. Many of these factions are ethnic Russians, it's the Russian civil war.
3. At the time many of these were not only at war with each other but claiming the same territory.
4. Alot has happened since the Russian Civil War, and note this map is still not the same as the map you showed earlier.

 

[Litwin]

1. Many things have changed over the last 100 years
2. Many of these factions are ethnic Russians, it's the Russian civil war.
3. At the time many of these were not only at war with each other but claiming the same territory.
4. Alot has happened since the Russian Civil War, and note this map is still not the same as the map you showed earlier.

i assume you know very little about Muscovite ulus (asian from of empire) , something what we all orenatalism for you all who speak Muscovite language is Muscovite , start with this ethnic Russians
" y 15 per cent of respondents identified themselves as Siberians during the period from 1986 to 1988, when asked “What would you call yourself?” However, in 1994, 19 per cent of respondents identified themselves in this way, 32 per cent in 2000, 52 per cent in 2005 and 75 per cent in 2010.3 The strongest support for the idea of “Siberian identity” was found mainly in the ethnic-Russian regions of Siberia. "

What's in store for the Siberian movement?

Siberian neo-regionalism has recently gained momentum, writes Stanislav Zakharkin; a development fuelled not least by widespread concern about the uneven distribution of revenues from the region's oil and mineral resources. But is this diverse grassroots movement capable of effecting real change?

www.eurozine.com

 

[joluoto]

i assume you know very little about Muscovite ulus (asian from of empire) , something what we all orenatalism for you all who speak Muscovite language is Muscovite , start with this ethnic Russians
" y 15 per cent of respondents identified themselves as Siberians during the period from 1986 to 1988, when asked “What would you call yourself?” However, in 1994, 19 per cent of respondents identified themselves in this way, 32 per cent in 2000, 52 per cent in 2005 and 75 per cent in 2010.3 The strongest support for the idea of “Siberian identity” was found mainly in the ethnic-Russian regions of Siberia. "

What's in store for the Siberian movement?

Siberian neo-regionalism has recently gained momentum, writes Stanislav Zakharkin; a development fuelled not least by widespread concern about the uneven distribution of revenues from the region's oil and mineral resources. But is this diverse grassroots movement capable of effecting real change?

www.eurozine.com

That's not the point. The point is that map is the factions of the Russian civil war, several of the things on that map are just the areas controlled by different White generals in 1918.

 

[Litwin]

That's not the point. The point is that map is the factions of the Russian civil war, several of the things on that map are just the areas controlled by different White generals in 1918.

so you think that " White generals" have followed the orders from the old czarist regime or Kerinski ? " White generals" is white list of A4 ,some call the leaders for Cossack Don Republic for " White generals" as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Republic

take this one :

 

[joluoto]

so you think that " White generals" have followed the orders from the old czarist regime or Kerinski ? " White generals" is white list of A4 ,some call the leaders for Cossack Don Republic for " White generals" as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Republic

take this one :

Yes, but this is a completely different map. And even this map is funny. It has "The Odessa Free Republic" which was just some isolate Bolsheviks that tried to connect up with the main red army. As well as the Ukrainian small Lemko Republics that were annexed by the Poles and Czechoslovaks (and really was just a few villages, but still interesting. the Rusyns are still a very different culture than mainstream Ukrainian). Still this map is better than the map you showed before. It also shows how fragile the region was during the Russian Civil War. The Far East Republic is an amalgation of many things. The different White warlords in the Far East were more independent (and isolated) from the rest of the White Army. The most powerful was the cossack Ataman Semyonov that ended up being the last "leader" of the Whites. But even he had not full control over the area, mostly there were autonomous warlords. Then the Reds created the Far East Republic as a buffer state in 1920, supposedly a Red puppest state, that in reality never controlled all the territory it claimed. Then the Japanese intervention forces that were still around at this point launched a coup in Vladivostok in May of '21. The Pro- Japanese government only controlled the Transamur and was despised by the locals. When the Japanese withdrew in ´22, the Reds entered Vladivostok and abolished the Far East Republic.

The Cossacks are another faction that are usually forgotten today. Both the Don Republic and Kuban Republic were established by the local Cossack hosts. Cossacks were ethnic Russians and Ukrainians that still practiced their own unique culture. There were both White and Red Cossacks, as well as Cossacks trying to establish their own States, however these projects started when the Whites started to fall apart and the Cossacks tried to create Republics to not fall under the Reds. And as you see again, even on this map many of these factions are factions of the Russian Civil War. I don't see the Green armies here, sad.

 

[Litwin]

Yes, but this is a completely different map. And even this map is funny. It has "The Odessa Free Republic" ....

once again you are a victim of Orientalism , you do think Muscovy before 1917 was a country but in reality it has always been an ulus (realm ) , private property of one family (Kabyla) . once Kabyla clan was out, entire ulus has collapsed , many countries which have been occupied by czars got back their lands , many got it first time in the history (much like yours) . Odessa was dominated by Jews, Belarusians ( 100 000 of them got passports BPR) , Poles, Bulgarians, and had strong city identity, so see in "The Odessa Free Republic" a logical development

conquests of 1/2 world by brutal Bolshevik- Marxist GANG is another story

ps
East Karelian uprising and Soviet–Finnish conflict of 1921–22 ...
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › East_Karelian_uprising_and_...



The East Karelian Uprising and the Soviet–Finnish conflict 1921–1922 were an attempt by a group of East Karelian separatists to gain independence from ... After Finland declared independence from Russia, a number of Finnish nationalists ... Order No 141 of the Revolutionary Military Counsel of the Republic to the Red ...

 

[joluoto]

once again you are a victim of Orientalism , you do think Muscovy before 1917 was a country but in reality it has always been an ulus (realm ) , private property of one family (Kabyla) . once Kabyla clan was out, entire ulus has collapsed , many countries which have been occupied by czars got back their lands , many got it first time in the history (much like yours) . Odessa was dominated by Jews, Belarusians ( 100 000 of them got passports BPR) , Poles, Bulgarians, and had strong city identity, so see in "The Odessa Free Republic" a logical development

conquests of 1/2 world by brutal Bolshevik- Marxist GANG is another story

ps
East Karelian uprising and Soviet–Finnish conflict of 1921–22 ...
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › East_Karelian_uprising_and_...



The East Karelian Uprising and the Soviet–Finnish conflict 1921–1922 were an attempt by a group of East Karelian separatists to gain independence from ... After Finland declared independence from Russia, a number of Finnish nationalists ... Order No 141 of the Revolutionary Military Counsel of the Republic to the Red ...

You really think the Odessan Soviet Republic in any ways reflected the actual population of Odessa? Lol. It was a local Bolshevik government that was isolated from the rest of the Bolsheviks. Lenin actually never recognized them, but that doesn't mean they weren't a Bolshevik state trying to link up with the rest of the Bolsheviks. It actually collapsed due to Germans and Austrians sacking the city (it was on the wrong side of the Bretsk- litovsk line, also the reason Lenin didn't recognize them). So again you don't know what you're talking about. The Odessan Soviet Republic was a local Bolshevik government, that was abolished by the Central Powers.

 

[Litwin]

You really think the Odessan Soviet Republic in any ways reflected the actual population of Odessa? ...

i am not expert on OFR, but i am an expert on Marxism gangs which failed everywhere without Bolshevik ´s gang bayonets very fast

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You didn't answer the question.

Who would you prosecute?

Being a Marxist - Stalinist isn't a crime in the free world.

and that’s the problem.

 

[Fledermaus]

and that’s the problem.

No. It isn't.

 

[Fledermaus]

i assume you know very little about Muscovite ulus (asian from of empire) , something what we all orenatalism for you all who speak Muscovite language is Muscovite , start with this ethnic Russians
" y 15 per cent of respondents identified themselves as Siberians during the period from 1986 to 1988, when asked “What would you call yourself?” However, in 1994, 19 per cent of respondents identified themselves in this way, 32 per cent in 2000, 52 per cent in 2005 and 75 per cent in 2010.3 The strongest support for the idea of “Siberian identity” was found mainly in the ethnic-Russian regions of Siberia. "

What's in store for the Siberian movement?

Siberian neo-regionalism has recently gained momentum, writes Stanislav Zakharkin; a development fuelled not least by widespread concern about the uneven distribution of revenues from the region's oil and mineral resources. But is this diverse grassroots movement capable of effecting real change?

www.eurozine.com

You keep insulting people who obviously know more about Russia than you do.

You have a very real chance to learn from others but you refuse to do so.

You present map after map yet you have no idea why they are flawed.

And ulus are not an "asian from of empire". They are subdivisions of a Mongolian post Mongolian state.

And there is no "Muscovite" language.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No. It isn't.

Sure it is. Chile, Spain, and Brazil saw massive social and economic improvements when under dictatorships that cracked down on Marxism.

 

[Litwin]

Sure it is. Chile, Spain, and Brazil saw massive social and economic improvements when under dictatorships that cracked down on Marxism.

+ entire Eastern Europe but we cracked down Moscow´s Marxism with help of nationalism and democracy

 

[Fledermaus]

as usual the empty words , some facts (who killed L.)
M. Solonin , google T. "
"The Main Directorate of the Sugar Industry, located in Moscow, sent a telegram to the Leningrad office of Sakharosbyt in mid-September 1941 with a demand to ship several wagons of sugar from Leningrad to Vologda, although Leningrad had already been blocked since September 8." The author cites this fact as a curious example of "people's untimely awareness". I suggest paying attention to the direction of the prescribed movement of the high-calorie product. And if the Germans had not cut the roads, would they have taken the sugar to Vologda? Is it just sugar?
The assumption that food was exported from pre-blockade Leningrad seems absurd and blasphemous - but only at first glance, and, moreover, rather clouded by generally binding pathos. According to common sense, we are talking only about a particular case of fulfilling the general instructions of Comrade Stalin: “Do not leave the enemy a kilogram of bread or a liter of fuel. , including non-ferrous metals, bread and fuel that cannot be exported, must certainly be destroyed. " Note - nothing is said about the evacuation of the population from territories where "not a kilogram of bread" should be left. Now, if Hitler and the Wehrmacht soldiers were cannibals in the truest sense of the word, then old Joe would probably have ordered "to drive all the inhabitants to the rear." And so - only cattle."

Марк Солонин - персональный сайт историка. Две блокады

www.solonin.org

So what?

It is the NAZIS that tried to starve Leningrad....

 

[Fledermaus]

+ entire Eastern Europe but we cracked down Moscow´s Marxism with help of nationalism and democracy

You did nothing but wait until people like me helped cause the Soviet Union to dissolve.