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"Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

Are "Legitimate" Breeders also ethical?

  • Shut up and give me a Frenchie.

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Fledermaus

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In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...can-be-best-in-show-are-they-worst-in-health/



So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?
 

ttwtt78640

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We need UHC to cover those terrible conditions, and must spare no expense in the process, not any restrictions on breeders. It's not the dog's fault that they have poor genes and will produce similar offspring.
 

Deuce

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We need UHC to cover those terrible conditions, and must spare no expense in the process, not any restrictions on breeders. It's not the dog's fault that they have poor genes and will produce similar offspring.

Legalize animal cruelty, wouldn’t want to impose job-killing regulations on pure American business owners.
 

beefheart

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In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...can-be-best-in-show-are-they-worst-in-health/



So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?

Well, if the breeder is raising dogs that are AKC certified and the dogs are in dog shows and you can get the full lineage...yeah.

My first Irish Terrier was of show stock, and I knew the breeder.
 

Fledermaus

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Well, if the breeder is raising dogs that are AKC certified and the dogs are in dog shows and you can get the full lineage...yeah.

My first Irish Terrier was of show stock, and I knew the breeder.

AKC only says your inbred was inbred in accordance with their guidelines....

The AKC guidelines for appearance have helped lead breeders to mutate some breeds.
 

Gina

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In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...can-be-best-in-show-are-they-worst-in-health/



So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?

Are all purebreds genetic abominations, in your view? Or just the breeds mentioned?

What's your solution to this problem?
 

beefheart

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So you are cool with breeding infirmity into a breed?

No, Irish Terriers are one of the healthiest breeds out there, because of good breeders. If an IT was found at a pet store, the breeders would buy it and sterilize it. Also, the breed didn't do well at puppy farms.

Very old breed, not messed up by bad breeders.
 

beefheart

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AKC only says your inbred was inbred in accordance with their guidelines....

The AKC guidelines for appearance have helped lead breeders to mutate some breeds.

I have the AKC book from 100 years ago, my breed hasn't changed, and thankfully it never became very popular, it wasn't bred to be something different that hurt the breed.
 

Gina

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If this is anything like the other thread, they just pretty much want the breeds to die out. :roll:

I saw that in the other thread and figured that would be the answer. But I have loads more questions.
 

Fledermaus

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More food for thought IRT the AKC...

Here’s the deal: the AKC doesn’t at all care about their dogs’ health. Their one health requirement for registration is that a dog be up to date with its inoculations—but apart from that, the health of a given dog is irrelevant. In their own words: “AKC registration means a dog, its parents, and its ancestors are purebred. It does not indicate health or quality.”

To be sure, they’re just a registry—but they’re giving absolutely no incentive for a show breeder to take care of their dogs. In fact, the AKC almost seems actively against ensuring the quality of their breeders. They employ only nine field inspectors, who have on more than one occasion certified breeders who were jailed for animal cruelty just months later.

These overtly lax health standards have led to some kennel clubs dissociating themselves from the AKC, which of course responded by prohibiting them from showing their dogs. There’s nothing in the rules that prevents a healthy dog from competing, obviously, but to show a dog with the AKC is to support their lack of health standards. And this is awful, because there are countless professional breeders out there who care about that sort of thing, and who should be supported for doing their jobs properly.

Worst of all, this isn’t simple passivity. The Humane Society of the United States has cited more than eighty proposed bills that the AKC has publicly opposed, all of which were designed to increase the basic care standards for dog breeding. Basic in the sense of “regular feeding” and “veterinary ” Because who needs food and medicine when you have pure blood?


https://listverse.com/2013/06/01/10-terrifying-facts-about-professional-dog-breeding/
 

Fledermaus

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Are all purebreds genetic abominations, in your view? Or just the breeds mentioned?

What's your solution to this problem?

Many purebreds are problematic. From my link: "a population of twenty thousand Boxers had the genetic variance of a population of seventy"

Bulldogs are the Hapsburgs of the dog world.

My solution?

Let the now living enjoy a happy life with a good family.

Stop artificial insemination of breeds incapable of reproducing naturally.

Stop cutting open dams for pups.

In cases where it can be done introduce new bloodlines that offset the deformities. This is noted in the Scientific American link.

Educate the potential owner of what is involved for the all important "purebred" dogs.

"The English bulldog has come to symbolize all that is wrong with the dog fancy and not without good reason; they suffer from almost every possible disease. A 2004 survey by the Kennel Club found that they die at the median age of 6.25 years (n=180). There really is no such thing as a healthy bulldog. The bulldog’s monstrous proportions make them virtually incapable of mating or birthing without medical intervention.

The Dachshund used to have functional legs and necks that made sense for their size. Backs and necks have gotten longer, chest jutted forward and legs have shrunk to such proportions that there is barely any clearance between the chest and floor. The dachschund has the highest risk of any breed for intervertebral disc disease which can result in paralysis; they are also prone to achondroplastic related pathologies, PRA and problems with their legs.

The Pug is another extreme brachycephalic breed and it has all the problems associated with that trait – high blood pressure, heart problems, low oxygenation, difficulty breathing, tendency to overheat, dentition problems, and skin fold dermatitis. The highly desirable double-curl tail is actually a genetic defect, in more serious forms it leads to paralysis."

https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/
 

Fledermaus

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I have the AKC book from 100 years ago, my breed hasn't changed, and thankfully it never became very popular, it wasn't bred to be something different that hurt the breed.

Excellent. I retract the question in your case IRT promoting breeding infirmity into a breed.

Do you think Irish Terriers would be a good choice to correct other breeds?
 

OldFatGuy

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My family and I have taken in many dogs (ams cats) over the years, mostly mutts; primarily as pets. Occasionally am abused bred dog. One aunt purposefully raised lapdogs for the companionship and relatively easy manage,emt they afforded older women, and her son went on to breed high end security dogs for the military. Both bred for small litters in small, clean kennels. I've always been satisfied with the mutts. I understand some dogs are bred for excellence at specific tasks: ratters, shepherds, haulers, security but for the average owner the preferences are for easy training, companionship, good behavior with children, general good health, and no concern for status looks. This latter I find most annoying even tho I enjoy viewing an attractive animal. Sometimes am ugly dog is the best dog to have. It's the dog owner relationship that counts I'd rather walk outdoors with my big, ugly, stupid and cowardly mutt than most people on a rainy nasty day. He makes better conversation and grateful companionship when we warm up at home.
 

lurchadams

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In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...can-be-best-in-show-are-they-worst-in-health/



So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?

That's a big, "negatory" on it being ethical, good buddy.

Yeah.

No.
 

beefheart

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tres borrachos

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There are many legitimate dog breeders in the country. There are more that are not legitimate. Legitimacy is not determined by the AKC standard or the unfortunate reality that certain breeds are susceptible to health or other issues.

A legitimate breeder does not ship puppies. A legitimate breeder does not sell to pet stores. A legitimate breeder does not overbreed the females. A legitimate breeder does not inbreed too closely in the bloodlines. A legitimate breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed.

Dachshunds are susceptible to IVDD and other back issues. Breeding them does not make you a bad breeder. Breeding them indiscriminately, not understanding how to minimize the susceptibility by understanding the bloodlines, and so on is what makes a bad breeder.
 

ALiberalModerate

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In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...can-be-best-in-show-are-they-worst-in-health/



So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?

I think what they are talking about is puppy mills where a breeder will have dozens if not hundreds of dogs, and those dogs are kept in small cages their entire lives, standing in their own filth, and getting little human interaction. That unfortunately is the source of a lot of pet store dogs.

Breeding dogs that tend to have a lot of a lot of health issues like English Bulldogs is an entirely different discussion.
 

Mason66

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This has never affected me and never will.

I get my dogs when they come to my house on their own sick and I take them in.

All of my dogs are Heinz 57 breeds, and I like it that way.
 

Fledermaus

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I think what they are talking about is puppy mills where a breeder will have dozens if not hundreds of dogs, and those dogs are kept in small cages their entire lives, standing in their own filth, and getting little human interaction. That unfortunately is the source of a lot of pet store dogs.

Breeding dogs that tend to have a lot of a lot of health issues like English Bulldogs is an entirely different discussion.

No, they are talking about breeders. To include "Legitimate" breeders. "Legitimate" breeders are the ones pushing pure bred (inbred) breeds.
 

Fledermaus

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There are many legitimate dog breeders in the country. There are more that are not legitimate. Legitimacy is not determined by the AKC standard or the unfortunate reality that certain breeds are susceptible to health or other issues.

A legitimate breeder does not ship puppies. A legitimate breeder does not sell to pet stores. A legitimate breeder does not overbreed the females. A legitimate breeder does not inbreed too closely in the bloodlines. A legitimate breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed.

Dachshunds are susceptible to IVDD and other back issues. Breeding them does not make you a bad breeder. Breeding them indiscriminately, not understanding how to minimize the susceptibility by understanding the bloodlines, and so on is what makes a bad breeder.

Bolded... I am speaking only about breeding infirmity into various breeds. And yes, "Legitimate" breeders do so. Where do you think these AKC show winners come from?

As to Dachshunds... They have been intentionally bred to the current state... See post #16. Breeding them to promote infirmity does make you a bad breeder.
 
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