• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
...and Imperialism is about power and money.
Ahhhhh! Realist theory! Power and money explain every conflict in the world. I do not necessarily subscribe to all of the tenents of Realist Theory, but it does have its points. And there has never been a war in which people are not looking to make money.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Hitler wasn't driven by money but by megalomaniacal ambition. His henchmen lived in opulence whilst Hitler's own home surroundings were modest in comparison.

This obsession that everyone does anything just for the money (except the pure dropout folk on the communal Left) in my opinion blinds you to Communism's practical faults whilst inflating your perception of the pitfalls of Capitalism, a true standalone economic system.
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Hitler wasn't driven by money but by megalomaniacal ambition. His henchmen lived in opulence whilst Hitler's own home surroundings were modest in comparison.

This obsession that everyone does anything just for the money (except the pure dropout folk on the communal Left) in my opinion blinds you to Communism's practical faults whilst inflating your perception of the pitfalls of Capitalism, a true standalone economic system.
No, you are correct about Hitler's ambitions indeed. The truth of the matter is that the Utopian political ideologies can never work because one would have to assume that human nature would change. As greed will never be suppressed in human nature, communism and socialism will not be true to their theories in the "real world."

Capitalism counts on human nature and especially greed. Therefore it is by far the most likely to succeed. However, capitalism must be kept in check by regulation, to simply nuture greed and not balance it will lead nations right back to the 1920's America and even farther to wealthy and poor, no middle whatsoever.
 

William Rea

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
8,949
Reaction score
2,231
Location
UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Hitler wasn't driven by money but by megalomaniacal ambition. His henchmen lived in opulence whilst Hitler's own home surroundings were modest in comparison.

This obsession that everyone does anything just for the money (except the pure dropout folk on the communal Left) in my opinion blinds you to Communism's practical faults whilst inflating your perception of the pitfalls of Capitalism, a true standalone economic system.
Hitler was obsessed with the power and wealth of the Germanic people no matter how modest the surroundings he placed himself in.

Communism is about the fair distribution of power and wealth.

Capitalism is about the aquisition of power and wealth and ALWAYS leads to extremes of power and wealth in the absence of HEALTHY democracy with an informed and educated population.

I disagree that greed is a natural human instinct, in fact I'd go so far as to say that cooperation and sharing are far more powerful human instincts.
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Hitler was obsessed with the power and wealth of the Germanic people no matter how modest the surroundings he placed himself in.

Communism is about the fair distribution of power and wealth.

Capitalism is about the aquisition of power and wealth and ALWAYS leads to extremes of power and wealth in the absence of HEALTHY democracy with an informed and educated population.

I disagree that greed is a natural human instinct, in fact I'd go so far as to say that cooperation and sharing are far more powerful human instincts.
Really! You do not think greed is a natural human instinct? Have you never heard a toddler yell "Mine!" as they grab their toy from another child.
 

William Rea

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
8,949
Reaction score
2,231
Location
UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Really! You do not think greed is a natural human instinct? Have you never heard a toddler yell "Mine!" as they grab their toy from another child.
I was perhaps overegging that statement but, in children that is generally a lack of empathy/ability to see the world through other people's eyes. As they get older most children develope out of that; those that don't tend to end up as sociopaths.
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I was perhaps overegging that statement but, in children that is generally a lack of empathy/ability to see the world through other people's eyes. As they get older most children develope out of that; those that don't tend to end up as sociopaths.
I think people tend to act selflessly during times of crisis and tragedy, but in everyday life, greed is just below the surface and it takes conciousness to supress it.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Capitalism is about the aquisition of power and wealth and ALWAYS leads to extremes of power and wealth in the absence of HEALTHY democracy with an informed and educated population.
Or this: Working Communism is about the aquisition of power and wealth in the hands of an elite and ALWAYS leads to extremes of power and wealth in the absence of HEALTHY democracy with an informed and educated population.

More like it.


There's much more whining about Capitalism than Communism, as if all the atrocities of Communism never occurred. What these Lefties fail to do is lift their heads from the dogmatic pamphlets and actually work out WHY Communism leads to oppression, unfair confiscation of earned wealth without legal recourse, death and tyranny EVERY DAMN TIME.
 

Grant

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ahhhhh! Realist theory! Power and money explain every conflict in the world. I do not necessarily subscribe to all of the tenents of Realist Theory, but it does have its points. And there has never been a war in which people are not looking to make money.
And there has never been a peace where people have not wanted to make money, or at least improve their circumstances in life for themselves and their loved ones.

Money itself is inanimate. It is how we respond to it, or the lack of it, that effects our behaviour and tests our character.

Communists from Lenin to Mao to Pol Pot have tried to create a 'new man', one who is indifferent to improving their position in life and that we all will eventually be one with the universe. After over 100 million deaths this murderous philosophy was finally defeated, though not yet abandoned by those whose thinking fails to extent beyond its 'money bad' limitations.

We can do learn more from reading the New Testament than we can from reading Marx, Mao, or any of these other egocentric madmen who felt they could redesign mankind according to their own whims and personal philosophies. People who can't even manage their own lives often have no difficulty in proposing how the rest of the world should live.
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, you are correct about Hitler's ambitions indeed. The truth of the matter is that the Utopian political ideologies can never work because one would have to assume that human nature would change. As greed will never be suppressed in human nature, communism and socialism will not be true to their theories in the "real world."

Capitalism counts on human nature and especially greed. Therefore it is by far the most likely to succeed. However, capitalism must be kept in check by regulation, to simply nuture greed and not balance it will lead nations right back to the 1920's America and even farther to wealthy and poor, no middle whatsoever.
Not everyone would agree. John Rawls in his 'veil of ignorance' [social contract theory] suggests if we [hypothetically] are placed not knowing or being aware of our situation we would naturally look out for others...

Veil of ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul
 
Last edited:

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Not everyone would agree. John Rawls in his 'veil of ignorance' [social contract theory] suggests if we [hypothetically] are placed not knowing or being aware of our situation we would naturally look out for others...

Veil of ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul
What do you mean? This agrees perfectly with me. The veil of ignorance works on people not knowing their situation, thus fearing for themselves. Even the example shows selfishness:

whites in the southern United States, pre-Civil War, did indeed condone slavery, but they most likely would not have done so had there been a re-fashioning of society so that they would not know whether they would be the ones enslaved.
The only way people would not have condoned slavery was if their was a chance of them being enslaved....sounds like self preservation through group preservation to me.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
People living under Communist rule were aware alright. People would help each other through comfort or hit by effects of the Big Brother telling them they were inhuman or 'greedy' if they tended to mind their own business.

As it went, people were also painfully aware of who they could or couldn't help. Assist a kulak, or protest at the arrest of a thought 'criminal' and you'd end up in trouble too.
 

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Not everyone would agree. John Rawls in his 'veil of ignorance' [social contract theory] suggests if we [hypothetically] are placed not knowing or being aware of our situation we would naturally look out for others...

Veil of ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul
Interesting idea Paul.

I think the thing is Paul, people tend to create political philosophies or even psychological ones based on themselves.

I remember reading Friedman's belief that we were all little robinsoe cruseos living just for ourselves. According to him if we were going down the street with friends and we came on a $10 bill we would never think of sharing it with those friends. We would just put it in our pockets - this was a few years ago when $10 was worth a bit more.

He was on Thatcher's reading list. One of the ones she liked most. Because of this her policies were based believing this was the prototype of human rather than an illustration of a somewhat damaged one. To not have empathy for others is surely a psychological damaged person.
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Interesting idea Paul.

I think the thing is Paul, people tend to create political philosophies or even psychological ones based on themselves.

I remember reading Friedman's belief that we were all little robinsoe cruseos living just for ourselves. According to him if we were going down the street with friends and we came on a $10 bill we would never think of sharing it with those friends. We would just put it in our pockets - this was a few years ago when $10 was worth a bit more.

He was on Thatcher's reading list. One of the ones she liked most. Because of this her policies were based believing this was the prototype of human rather than an illustration of a somewhat damaged one. To not have empathy for others is surely a psychological damaged person.
I do not think anyone is arguing that people do not possess empathy or compassion, however I assert that in the West where we celebrate "individualism" the self-satifying part of our nature outweights the rest. People feel bad for others, just usually not enough to do anything about it if it costs them anything meaningful. Sure, it is easy to donate some money when you have the extra money, but try to when money is tight or to actually donate significant amounts of time to a good cause. Empathy is what we are talking about here, people relate and are sad, but rarely help unless it is something traumatic that really moves them.

Just watch that show "What would you do?" where they simulate crimes or domestic violence just to see how people will respond. 80-90% do not get involved and those that do will wait til they are away from the situation to call the police.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I think the thing is Paul, people tend to create political philosophies or even psychological ones based on themselves.
I absolutely agree. From Lenin, through to Stalin, Kruschev, Breshnev and Kosegin, leaders of even Communism's boss nation placed the personification of absolute authority in themselves. The Polituburo and Comintern couldn't think for themselves. And there was no concrete thoughts of successions, hence the infighting leading even to murder to gain control of the USSR.

Indeed, so brutal is Communism that Kruschev is given credit for reform which 'softened' the USSR so much that he had the reputation of being the first deposed leader not to be murdered!



And all this is acknowledged by the merest of backwards glances by hardcore Leftists. They prefer to believe that Communism should have been something else so much that they read screed after screed of pompous, beard-stroker theory clouding the issue rather than clarifying it!
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
6,057
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Communists from Lenin to Mao to Pol Pot have tried to create a 'new man', one who is indifferent to improving their position in life and that we all will eventually be one with the universe. After over 100 million deaths this murderous philosophy was finally defeated, though not yet abandoned by those whose thinking fails to extent beyond its 'money bad' limitations.
Lol what a silly post
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, you are correct about Hitler's ambitions indeed. The truth of the matter is that the Utopian political ideologies can never work because one would have to assume that human nature would change. As greed will never be suppressed in human nature, communism and socialism will not be true to their theories in the "real world."

Capitalism counts on human nature and especially greed. Therefore it is by far the most likely to succeed. However, capitalism must be kept in check by regulation, to simply nuture greed and not balance it will lead nations right back to the 1920's America and even farther to wealthy and poor, no middle whatsoever.
What do you mean? This agrees perfectly with me. The veil of ignorance works on people not knowing their situation, thus fearing for themselves. Even the example shows selfishness:



The only way people would not have condoned slavery was if their was a chance of them being enslaved....sounds like self preservation through group preservation to me.
I'm not sure you fully understand,

"For example, in the imaginary society, one might or might not be intelligent, rich, or born into a preferred class. Since one may occupy any position in the society once the veil is lifted, this theory encourages thinking about society from the perspective of all members".

The bolded is the pertinent point in Rawls opinion in this state of nature we are concerned about society as a whole rather than an individualistic approach.

I think Hobbes social contract theory is more in-line to what your suggesting,

"In addition to Subjectivism, Hobbes also infers from his mechanistic theory of human nature that humans are necessarily and exclusively self-interested. All men pursue only what they perceive to be in their own individually considered best interests" [...]

This of course if you agree with the principles of social contract theory :)

Social Contract Theory [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Paul
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I'm not sure you fully understand,

"For example, in the imaginary society, one might or might not be intelligent, rich, or born into a preferred class. Since one may occupy any position in the society once the veil is lifted, this theory encourages thinking about society from the perspective of all members".

The bolded is the pertinent point in Rawls opinion in this state of nature we are concerned about society as a whole rather than an individualistic approach.

I think Hobbes social contract theory is more in-line to what your suggesting,

"In addition to Subjectivism, Hobbes also infers from his mechanistic theory of human nature that humans are necessarily and exclusively self-interested. All men pursue only what they perceive to be in their own individually considered best interests" [...]

This of course if you agree with the principles of social contract theory :)

Social Contract Theory*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Paul
Ok, so the only way for this scenario to play out now, is for anarchy to breakout, yes? I understand what he is saying, however I do not see this being more than a theory, in reality people will rarely, if ever think in such a fashion.
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Indeed, so brutal is Communism that Kruschev is given credit for reform which 'softened' the USSR so much that he had the reputation of being the first deposed leader not to be murdered!
QUOTE]

I wasn't aware the USSR actually reached Communism rather, it languished with the dictatorship of the proletariat so true communism was never experienced .

Paul
 

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
And yes, I do agree with Hobbes and social contract theory.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Lol what a silly post
Ah, you can tell us why Communism automatically leads to genocide, oppression and loss of liberty wherever it's allowed to stain the offices of government.

And 'That's not real communism' as an answer is a cop-out because it explains no circumstances which communism creates to allow tyrants to ascend so easily.
 

Republic_Of_Public

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
...it languished with the dictatorship of the proletariat so true communism was never experienced .
Marx's dictatorship idea is the last rung on the ladder when you head in his direction.

Like religion with its ideals of heavenly reward after all the suffering, Communism's divine utopia on earth is completely unworkable and so thus operational dictatorship is as far as you get.
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
And yes, I do agree with Hobbes and social contract theory.
As you previously suggest they are just theories but its surprising how many of these theories actually underpin government policy :)

Paul
 

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I do not think anyone is arguing that people do not possess empathy or compassion, however I assert that in the West where we celebrate "individualism" the self-satifying part of our nature outweights the rest.
People are more individual than you may think. There is a difference between being in touch with your genuine self and 'individualism'. Not everyone has 'self satisfaction' as the most prominent part of their nature. Paul's link does give one way of looking at how that may be created. Myself I would prefer a free society where people can be creative and conscious of who they are rather than having a life addicted to the grind with little time to share with children and being so out of touch with myself through overwork that I cannot give so much to them anyway ...and like it or not that is a big symptom of our societies at the current time.

People feel bad for others, just usually not enough to do anything about it if it costs them anything meaningful. Sure, it is easy to donate some money when you have the extra money, but try to when money is tight or to actually donate significant amounts of time to a good cause. Empathy is what we are talking about here, people relate and are sad, but rarely help unless it is something traumatic that really moves them.
I'm not making a personal point about you. ;)

The statement you quoted of Adam Smith is a stereotype of humans and one that certainly suits the rich and powerful far more than Joe Blogs. I don't think it works. We have only been trying it for a few years in the UK and look what it did to us. Greed is good did not work.

Friedman saw humans as lonely. People who are like Robinson Crusoe's. People basically out of touch with their inner feeling selves so that all the can do is be selfish. It is a horrific concept of the potential of human beings and one that sees possibly the lowest type existence as the one to strive for.
 
Last edited:

tlmorg02

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
1,078
Location
Louisville, Ky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
As you previously suggest they are just theories but its surprising how many of these theories actually underpin government policy :)

Paul
In the US, I think many tend to allign with neorealism, yet in actual practice we really witness neoliberalism.
 
Top Bottom