Knowledge test [W:93]

[apdst]

It's not Obama's job to overhaul healthcare or gun regulations, either.

but...but...but...that's different!

 

[Carjosse]

It's not Obama's job to overhaul healthcare or gun regulations, either.

It's his government's job to, I hate people who blame Obama for flaws in the country. Republicans can also be blamed aswell. They should share the blame for all he things that are wrong with America.

 

[Jerry]

Last time I checked it's not Obama's job to overhaul the education system and figure out where the money is going.

It's his job to.

 

[Jerry]

I hate people who blame Obama for flaws in the country. Republicans can also be blamed aswell. They should share the blame for all he things that are wrong with America.

Oh right like Obama doesn't still blame everything on Bush.

Whatever. Obama isn't republican, and republican's aren't talking gun control.

 

[LaMidRighter]

It's his government's job to, I hate people who blame Obama for flaws in the country.

No, it isn't. The federal has no power over things not specifically enumerated under the tenth amendment, those powers are reserved to the states specifically. Only those powers granted to the federal through further amendment which requires the house of congress and 2/3 of the states are then enumerated to the federal. If you actually read up on why health care costs so much in America it all points back to federal interference, that's all I'm going to say as I've done the research.

Republicans can also be blamed aswell. They should share the blame for all he things that are wrong with America.

I am no fan of the Republican party, but the largest expansions of federal powers came from Wilson(D), FDR(D), Nixon(R), and Obama(D). In all of those eras the Democrats held congress and expanded the government in ways not according to the constitution, they didn't even bother to go through the necessary and proper protocols set out for immediate needs. The only other Republican to blame is Lincoln, he was the original states' rights violator, once he had secession defacto banned through a war and subsequent SCOTUS decision the states lost ground to federal expansion. We are a federal republic, central authority was something not meant for a free people. The Democrat party is more guilty, though the Republicans continued what the other clowns started.

 

[apdst]

It's his government's job to, I hate people who blame Obama for flaws in the country. Republicans can also be blamed aswell. They should share the blame for all he things that are wrong with America.

You sure as hell don't mind giving Obama credit for everything that goes right.

BTW, it's not, "his", government. It's OUR government. He works for us and it's just a temp job, at that.

 

[apdst]

It's his job to.

Yeah, nevermind that the Secretary of Education is a member of Obama's cabinet.

 

[Moot]

A sub machine gun, also called machine pistol.


You can't buy that in a sporting goods store. It's been banned since 1986. To have one, you need a Class-3 tax stamp. Very costly. The typical gun owner does not own this type of firearm. Very, very few people have a sub-machine gun. That is not the kind of firearm an AR15 is, and no, a 8y/o should not be handling one, supervised or not, I don't care, if you're a cop, I don't care, that type of gun is to much fr a 8 y/o to handle. if I see you put a sub machine gun in a 8y/o hand I'm gona walk over to your lane and we're gona have a problem. I don't give **** if there's badge on your chest, you take that gun away from that kid or my fist will be in your ****ing face.

What happened was perfectly predictable and is why I would freak the **** out if I saw a kid with one: It's a light, small full-auto rifle, bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle, great for room clearance. It's petite size is deceitful. The kid pulls the trigger, rounds start pouring out, the kid reflexively holds on tighter, which keeps the trigger down, which keeps the gun firing, and muzzle flip becomes to much, gun points up and up and up and back, kid shoots himself in the head.

Ironically, if the kid were firing a full size more powerful machine gun, this would not have happened, because the size and weight would have prevented the gun from flipping up, the gun would have been fired from a sitting or prone position (Ito large and heavy for an 8 y/o to hold). Worse case scenario is the kid would freak out and hold down the trigger effectively causing a 'run-away' effect which is easily corrected, but the bullets would be going in the right direction: AWAY, not up, not back.

Adults have no problem firing a sub machine gun, because adults generally weigh 200lbs+, have more muscle then an 8 y/o, and can easily manage the recoil for the gun's light or moderate cartrage with little trouble. maybe this is why the adults underestimated the child's ability to handle it, since an adult can handle a sub machine gun easily.

A sub machine gun is a Class-3 item, and no Class-3 item is on any assault Weapon Ban definition or list. Not many people own them now, and they're not what Obama is talking about when he referrs to guns "being taken off the street".

Oi veeeey...I knew it was bad, but I had no idea it was that bad. This occured at gun show that advertised family fun and games.....uuuuunnngh. Thank you for your response. Too bad you weren't at that gun show, Jerry. The way you described the gun it's amazing more people weren't killed.

 

[Jerry]

Oi veeeey...I knew it was bad, but I had no idea it was that bad. This occured at gun show that advertised family fun and games.....uuuuunnngh. Thank you for your response. Too bad you weren't at that gun show, Jerry. The way you described the gun it's amazing more people weren't killed.

It is amazing, frankly. You give a gun like that a small kid who can't handle it....in a panic that kid could have started turning around instead of the gun moving up and he would have sprayed everyone.

That weapon is fine in the hands of an adult, but it is so ****ing stupid to give that to a child.

You don't give liquor to a child. You don't give tobacco to a child. You don't let a child drive. You don't give a machine pistol to an 8 y/o.

****
In the Guard we have an annual recruiting event called Warrior's Challenge. Basically each company in the battalion gets an E-4/5 type to gather up 4-12 highschool juniors and seniors. We take them out and give them camo, have them crawl in mud, eat MREs, camp outside, do "missions", land nave, obstical coarse (the kind where everyone has to work together or everyone falls in the water... plus single rope ladders, cargo nets, etc) lots of fun stuff. The kids have a blast. One of the events is a live-fire with assault rifles and machine guns. M4s, M16s, they get to shoot burst, belt-fed weapons, good stuff.

We would never dream of doing this with an 8 y/o. An 8 y/o isn't even allowed in paint-ball, forget about machine guns.

These are highschool kids, old enough to enlist and do this for real.

 

[Arbo]

Amazing how quickly people refuse to address their statements, and try to move on as if it never happened.

Just making a note there....

Never disappointed when the uninformed refuse to back up their words, as that's how it always works out.

 

[Moot]

1) most of the stuff is locked up
2) some target shotguns are in cases in an alarmed area
3) my kid has his competition weapons in his room. we bought him a safe today which will be installed in his room so he can instantly access the weapons if he needs them and to provide hard cover in his room.
4) when his friends come over we lock his weapons up
5) I have no problem having my soon to be 15 year old have access to weapons. He has had 64 hours of formal training from the best tactical training academy within 500 miles of our house and has at least 75,000 rounds of training. this two week xmas break involved 2000 rounds of 22 lr, 400 rounds of 38 Special (revolver), 500 rounds of 9mm (mainly single action 1911 style pistol) and
1200 rounds of IPSC major level 45 ACP out of a Kimber US Shooting Team 1911 (mostly draws and practicing either double taps on multiple targets or various single round each target drills)

he also spent several hours with dummy rounds practicing speed reloads of that 45 ACP so he can compete on the USPSA circuit this summer.

He is sometimes home alone. If some assoles decide to break into the house, the dogs will give him plenty of warning. He is well trained enough to decide whether to grab his 20G pump shotgun, his AR 15 in 545x39 or a "David Bowie" custom Smith and Wesson 9mm that has a J point red dot sight on it

It sure sounds like you're ready for Armaggedon if and when it should ever come. Are you also a prepper? If someone has that many guns in their house it seems like they would need more protection just to protect their guns from theft. But I've known you long enough on this forum, TD to believe that you know what you're doing and making sure your kids are well trained and respectful of guns. It obvious you enjoy them as a sport and hobby.

 

[ecofarm]

If someone has that many guns in their house it seems like they would need more protection just to protect their guns from theft.

Any expensive hobby requires additional security. For example, collecting watches. Do you think that no one should own anything expensive?

But I've known you long enough on this forum, TD to believe that you know what you're doing and making sure your kids are well trained and respectful of guns. It obvious you enjoy them as a sport and hobby.

And carrying a handgun probably saved his life, and perhaps the lives of others.

 

[Moot]

It is amazing, frankly. You give a gun like that a small kid who can't handle it....in a panic that kid could have started turning around instead of the gun moving up and he would have sprayed everyone.

That weapon is fine in the hands of an adult, but it is so ****ing stupid to give that to a child.

You don't give liquor to a child. You don't give tobacco to a child. You don't let a child drive. You don't give a machine pistol to an 8 y/o.

This article describes the gun just like you said....

All guns when fired will recoil, or jerk slightly backwards and up, he said. The shooter needs to lower the gun and re-aim after each shot. With a fully automatic Uzi firing up to 600 rounds a minute, the gun will recoil with each round fired, he said. "With this continuous recoil, it will go back and up, back and up, back and up, back and up," he said. If the person shooting the weapon is not prepared or does not have the physical strength to control the weapon, the combined recoil can cause the weapon to jerk backward violently, he said. Lech said this may have contributed to the accident. Also, the boy may have been too scared or surprised to let go of the trigger, he said.....

Father says boy who shot self at Westfield Sportsman's Club had permission to use machine gun | masslive.com


Whats odd is that it was a "machine gun expo" that advertised, "no permit, no training required" and various targets to shoot at. The article then goes on to say that for officers to qualify to use automatic weapons, they must undergo 40 hours of training. Hmmm.

In the Guard we have an annual recruiting event called Warrior's Challenge. Basically each company in the battalion gets an E-4/5 type to gather up 4-12 highschool juniors and seniors. We take them out and give them camo, have them crawl in mud, eat MREs, camp outside, do "missions", land nave, obstical coarse (the kind where everyone has to work together or everyone falls in the water... plus single rope ladders, cargo nets, etc) lots of fun stuff. The kids have a blast. One of the events is a live-fire with assault rifles and machine guns. M4s, M16s, they get to shoot burst, belt-fed weapons, good stuff.

We would never dream of doing this with an 8 y/o. An 8 y/o isn't even allowed in paint-ball, forget about machine guns.

These are highschool kids, old enough to enlist and do this for real.

I have a friend that used to do paint-ball thing....but after a couple of blasts in the face with red paint, he finally had enough. lol

 

[Jerry]

This article describes the gun just like you said....

All guns when fired will recoil, or jerk slightly backwards and up, he said. The shooter needs to lower the gun and re-aim after each shot. With a fully automatic Uzi firing up to 600 rounds a minute, the gun will recoil with each round fired, he said. "With this continuous recoil, it will go back and up, back and up, back and up, back and up," he said. If the person shooting the weapon is not prepared or does not have the physical strength to control the weapon, the combined recoil can cause the weapon to jerk backward violently, he said. Lech said this may have contributed to the accident. Also, the boy may have been too scared or surprised to let go of the trigger, he said.....

Father says boy who shot self at Westfield Sportsman's Club had permission to use machine gun | masslive.com

Sure. If you or I owned our own Class-3 item, such as a machine gun, we could take our friends out and let the m shoot it. Our friends wouldn't need any permit or training, but we have to be standing right there next to them. That by itself isn't a problem.

It's the giving it to an 8 y/o who doesn't have a snow-ball's chance of controlling it which is the problem.

Yeah the recoil's a bitch. Even on a full-size machine gun, we fire in bursts so as to keep the thing in control. All machine guns will fire up and to the right because of recoil. An adult can manage it and keep the gun under control and have a good time. An 8 y/o cannot. That is just so incredibly stupid to give a gun like that to an 8 y/o.

Having said that, most folks do not have machine guns. I have taken my 8 y/o shooting and he can handle my .38 revolver just fine. He' can't hit the board side of a barn but that that's because the revolver is a snub-nose and isn't any good beyond 15-20 feet, about from my bed to the door, which is all I need it for. My 8 y/o is very good with his .22 rifle.

If I owned a full-size machine gun, lol hell yeah I'd take my kids shooting with it, but we would only fire from the prone position and I would be laying right there with them. I've received structured training on machine guns, I've trained people on how to operate them (the A&A, who shouldn't be trusted with a fork let alone a firearm), and I've personally experienced and dealt with a run-away machine gun. That doesn't make me superman where I can save the world, but it does mean that I can prevent or respond to most emergencies.

If I owned a machine pistol, I would never put it in my 8 y/o's hands. Not ever. An 8 y/o can't handle it.

I tell people that guns are like electricity: you NEED to be afraid of it in order to respect it and use it correctly. The moment you don't fear it that's the moment someone dies. I think the adults allowing this 8 y/o to fire the machine pistol got comfortable and dropped their guard, the lost their fear, and that's when the kid died. Perfectly preventable.

You can take a "scary looking assault rifle" AR15 with a collapsible stock, 30rnd detachable mag, pistol grip and bayonet lug, put it in the hands of this same 8 y/o, and this would not have happened, because the AR15 only fires 1 round when the trigger is pulled. You could take an identically looking assault rifle, put it on burst, and this would not have happened, because an assault rifle does not keep firing when the trigger is held down. It will fire it's 3rnds and stop. The trigger mechanism actually has a way of counting how many shots are fired and stops at 3. It's not a computer, it's a mechanical function like a clock, and stops at the 3rd tic.

Calling back to gun control, just because some number of folks get electrocuted every year doesn't mean we need to limit "high-capacity" electrical transformers, the number of circuits a home can have, or register every light socket in the wall. There are some basic level safety measures which should be honored, such as GFI outlets and standardized fuses, just as we should require proper storage of firearms which aren't in immediate use. But it's getting to crazy. We don't need all this extra gun control.

 

[blaxshep]

Just asking, doesn't an Uzi fire relatively small rounds?

 

[Jerry]

I agree...idiots shouldn't own guns. Anyone that thinks you can openly buy a, "sub-machine gun", at a gun show is an idiot.

I've handled thousands of guns at gun shows and none of them were loaded, so I have to question the credibility of this story.

Your typical low-information voter who doesn't care about the difference between a "magazine" and a "clip" certainly isn't going to care about the difference between a "modern sporting rifle" and a "machine pistol". They don't know, and they don't care to know. All they perceive is "scary looking gun".

The people are being pacified.

 

[Jerry]

Just asking, doesn't an Uzi fire relatively small rounds?

Yes, an Uzi fires common pistol rounds. The exact same thing you would load into a small AWB compliant semi-auto pistol, that's what an Uzi fires.

 

[Mach]

It's the giving it to an 8 y/o who doesn't have a snow-ball's chance of controlling it which is the problem.
If I owned a machine pistol, I would never put it in my 8 y/o's hands. Not ever. An 8 y/o can't handle it.

So in this one example, why should there not be federal legislation that prohibits anyone from letting an 8 y/o fire a machine pistol (or certain classes of firearms)?

You have to remember it's the dead 8 year old who is the victim here, of his parents inability to make a decision you believe is as clear as day. Why not legislate it? Is the question.

 

[Mach]

Just asking, doesn't an Uzi fire relatively small rounds?

Relative to an 8 year old?

 

[Jerry]

So in this one example, why should there not be federal legislation that prohibits anyone from letting an 8 y/o fire a machine pistol (or certain classes of firearms)?

You have to remember it's the dead 8 year old who is the victim here, of his parents inability to make a decision you believe is as clear as day. Why not legislate it? Is the question.

The parents didn't own the gun. This was at a machine gun expo. The owner was a licensed instructor at the expo who let a lot of people shoot that gun before this incident occurred. Instructors are already required to follow various safety standards, assessing the physical ability of the shooter being one of them. A broad rule on age isn't going to stop an adult with a physical handicap.

Now maybe the parent's aren't educated on firearms themselves to realize what that little pistol could do, and trusted the fact that there was a trained professional standing right there saying it was alright.

This instructor failed to properly assess the physical ability of the person he was allowing to fire the gun. That's already illegal, and if I recall correctly from when this happened, the instructor got a long prison sentence and will never own a firearm ever again.

 

[Jerry]

Relative to an 8 year old?

An 8 y/o can handle a .38cal/9mm semi-auto, or revolver, or rifle, no problem.

A machine pistol is a whole different animal, though. It's not the size of the round that the gun eats, it's how fast those rounds are fired out, and that the machine pistol doesn't ever stop while the trigger is held.

A gun that fires 1 shot at a time, though, is no problem.

 

[Moot]

An 8 y/o can handle a .38cal/9mm semi-auto, or revolver, or rifle, no problem.

A machine pistol is a whole different animal, though. It's not the size of the round that the gun eats, it's how fast those rounds are fired out, and that the machine pistol doesn't ever stop while the trigger is held.

A gun that fires 1 shot at a time, though, is no problem.

1,700 rounds a minute to be precise....

 

[Jerry]

1,700 rounds a minute to be precise....

I would own one if I could, but I would never give it to an 8 y/o.

 

[Moot]

Any expensive hobby requires additional security. For example, collecting watches. Do you think that no one should own anything expensive?

Sure if they can afford it. But I learned a long time ago that in some places, like in poor areas or countries, it wiser not to advertise.

And carrying a handgun probably saved his life, and perhaps the lives of others.

Yes, it probably did by the sound of it.

 

[ecofarm]

Sure if they can afford it. But I learned a long time ago that in some places, like in poor areas or countries, it wiser not to advertise.

You think collectors should not talk about their collections, online? I'm pretty sure his security is good enough that he can mention his stuff.

Anyway, security is key. Keeping quiet about things is hardly a position I'm willing to take or a policy I could endure.