Judge Revokes Partial-Birth Abortion Ban

[Fantasea]

Abortion, the one issue where I can forgive someone for voting Republican.

If abortion is outlawed...more women will certainly die as a result.

Where's the morality in that?

How about furnishing some numbers in order to put a little concrete in what is simply an abstract statement?

 

[Pacridge]

I don't like abortion. Never have, never will. So really- let's do something to put an end to it. Laws aren't going to do it. People will just go back to having back ally abortions. Well at least the poor. The rich will fly their daughters off to Canada. Didn't work with alcohol, isn't working with drugs. Not going to work with abortion. I didn't care much for Clinton when he was in office, probably because I was watching too much FNC. I my defense I had no idea how much they were lying to me, now I do. But when you go back and look at the numbers; he actually reduced the number of abortions in this country. We got to stop sticking ours heads in the sand and pretending. Let's start dealing with hard honest facts.

 

[Jufarius87]

what your basicly saying is, because we cant stop all murder, we cant prevent all atrocities..... we shouldnt even try

weak liberalist trash arguement usually im more polite than that but this is one issue that tends to agravate me

 

[Fantasea]

I don't like abortion. Never have, never will. So really- let's do something to put an end to it. Laws aren't going to do it.

Why not share your ideas for a solution?

 

[Pacridge]

what your basicly saying is, because we cant stop all murder, we cant prevent all atrocities..... we shouldnt even try

weak liberalist trash arguement usually im more polite than that but this is one issue that tends to agravate me

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying let's do more in the way of valid factual education and work harder to improve conditions that lead to unwanted pregnancies.

But hey thanks for calling me trash. Coming from you- it makes me feel all warm inside.

 

[Pacridge]

Why not share your ideas for a solution?

I wish, I honestly wish I had some great plan that would end abortions. Now and forever. As you might suspect I don't. I do think that by supplying good solid educational programs we can reduce the numbers of unwanted pregnancies. I've also done some looking into the effects of some other social programs and their effect on teen pregnancies. Here in Oregon they had a midnight basketball program that ran for several years. During those years teen pregnancies dropped by over half. Seems logical to me less unwanted pregnancies- less abortions.

Personally I'd do whatever it took to end this practice. That would include passing some more laws too. I never said we shouldn't pass laws limiting who and when abortions could be done. I simply pointed out that passing laws alone wouldn't put an end to this problem.

 

[Hoot]

How about furnishing some numbers in order to put a little concrete in what is simply an abstract statement?

It's not an abstract statement.
It's simple common sense.

If abortions are outlawed, any reasonable person has to agree that illegal abortions will increase...as all abortions will be illegal.

It's not a stretch at all to conclude... therefore....

"the more illegal abortions..the more likelihood of women dying from those illegal abortions."

 

[Hoot]

Why not share your ideas for a solution?

Sterilizing all Republicans would be a great start.

 

[Fantasea]

It's not an abstract statement.
It's simple common sense.

If abortions are outlawed, any reasonable person has to agree that illegal abortions will increase...as all abortions will be illegal.

It's not a stretch at all to conclude... therefore....

"the more illegal abortions..the more likelihood of women dying from those illegal abortions."

What you're really saying is that you have no idea of numbers.

Let me provide a few for you.

New York
Live Births Abortions
1990 302,084 159,098
1991 293,518 158,761
1992 285,568 164,274
1993 278,307 157,891
1994 279,187 149,598
1995 264,253 139,686
1996 271,569 152,991
1997 282,389 145,334
1998 258,207 139,646
1999 255,612 137,234
2000 258,737 129,678
2001 254,026 127,102
total 3,283,457 1,761,293

What these numbers reveal is that the odds of a child making it out of the womb alive are just about 1 in 3.

Or, for every 2 live births, there is one abortion.

What does that tell you?

 

[Hoot]

What you're really saying is that you have no idea of numbers.
What these numbers reveal is that the odds of a child making it out of the womb alive are just about 1 in 3.

Or, for every 2 live births, there is one abortion.

What does that tell you?

What in the world does this have to do with my premise that more women will die if abortions are made illegal?!

Sheesh...are you sure you aren't Sean Hannity in disguise?

This is exactly the way Sean debates...change the subject...site a bunch of numbers that have nothing to do with what I was suggesting....

"More women will die if abortions are made illegal."

Does that concern you at all?

Abortions won't stop. Women will still need abortions...therefore we will have more back room abortion procedures with wire coat hangers, and as a result, more women will die.

But guess what? It won't be the rich and well-to-do women who will die, They'll simply jet off to the nearest legal abortion clinic. It will be the poor who will suffer, but that's never been much of a concern to conservatives.

I'm not pro-abortion...I think it's a terrible thing, but I also believe in a woman's right to choose... I believe in a woman having safe access to abortions if she is raped, or her life is threatened by pregnancy. This is still the law of the land...a legal right that came from a Supreme Court that most agree has 5 conservative members and 4 liberal members.

So, what are you? An anarchist? A terrorist?

Don't like it? Then elect representatives that support your view.

But if you think republicans are actually gonna touch the abortion issue, then you're living in a dream world...won't happen...it would alienate too many women voters...can't have that, can we republicans?

 

[Pacridge]

What in the world does this have to do with my premise that more women will die if abortions are made illegal?!

Sheesh...are you sure you aren't Sean Hannity in disguise?

This is exactly the way Sean debates...change the subject...site a bunch of numbers that have nothing to do with what I was suggesting....

"More women will die if abortions are made illegal."

Does that concern you at all?

Abortions won't stop. Women will still need abortions...therefore we will have more back room abortion procedures with wire coat hangers, and as a result, more women will die.

But guess what? It won't be the rich and well-to-do women who will die, They'll simply jet off to the nearest legal abortion clinic. It will be the poor who will suffer, but that's never been much of a concern to conservatives.

I'm not pro-abortion...I think it's a terrible thing, but I also believe in a woman's right to choose... I believe in a woman having safe access to abortions if she is raped, or her life is threatened by pregnancy. This is still the law of the land...a legal right that came from a Supreme Court that most agree has 5 conservative members and 4 liberal members.

So, what are you? An anarchist? A terrorist?

Don't like it? Then elect representatives that support your view.

But if you think republicans are actually gonna touch the abortion issue, then you're living in a dream world...won't happen...it would alienate too many women voters...can't have that, can we republicans?

Women will still need abortions? Why will they "need" abortions? I think I agree with just about everything you stated here but I'm sure anyone needs an abortion.

I do like your thought that the wealthy will just fly to nearest legal clinic while the poor will just have back ally abortions. If they totally outlaw abortions it will take all of five minutes for a flood how-to-do-it guides to appear on the internet.

Again, I think we should be doing more to curb the unwanted pregnancies to begin with. And I think there are ways to do just that. I think if the anti-abortion people spent less time marching outside of clinics and more time working with teen programs it would be a good start. And no not just the health clinic. I'm talking Boy and Girls Clubs, Inter City Youth sports leagues, the local Youth Church group- anything that would involve a positive interaction between a responsible adult and a young person. Studies have shown that kids involved in groups and programs of this nature are far less likely to be involved in drugs, gang activity and by a wide margin less likely to become or get someone else pregnant. So many of these programs have been cut or are at risk of being cut due to lack of funding and lack of volunteers.

 

[Fantasea]

What in the world does this have to do with my premise that more women will die if abortions are made illegal?!

I'm not pro-abortion...I think it's a terrible thing, but I also believe in a woman's right to choose... I believe in a woman having safe access to abortions if she is raped, or her life is threatened by pregnancy.

I've edited the noise out of your response.

First let me refresh your memory with those numbers, the significance of which eluded you the first time around.

What you're really saying is that you have no idea of numbers.

Let me provide a few for you.

New York
Live Births Abortions
1990 302,084 159,098
1991 293,518 158,761
1992 285,568 164,274
1993 278,307 157,891
1994 279,187 149,598
1995 264,253 139,686
1996 271,569 152,991
1997 282,389 145,334
1998 258,207 139,646
1999 255,612 137,234
2000 258,737 129,678
2001 254,026 127,102
total 3,283,457 1,761,293

What these numbers reveal is that the odds of a child making it out of the womb alive are just about 1 in 3.

Or, for every 2 live births, there is one abortion.

What does that tell you?

Will more women die from illegal abortions than currently die in legal abortions?
Given that the number of abortions in total will be dramatically reduced, I don't believe so since all illegal abortions will not kill the mother.

Government statistics which you can find on the web confirm that less than 1% of pregnancies resulting from rape or incest, or involve danger of the death of the mother are legally aborted.

In the total shown above, that would be fewer than 17,613. Tell me, what is the justification for aborting the other 1,743,680? Other than poor timing on the part of the child.

Do you find it significant that 1 out of every 3 pregnancies is terminated by abortion?

 

[Fantasea]

Women will still need abortions? Why will they "need" abortions? I think I agree with just about everything you stated here but I'm sure anyone needs an abortion.

I do like your thought that the wealthy will just fly to nearest legal clinic while the poor will just have back ally abortions. If they totally outlaw abortions it will take all of five minutes for a flood how-to-do-it guides to appear on the internet.

Again, I think we should be doing more to curb the unwanted pregnancies to begin with. And I think there are ways to do just that. I think if the anti-abortion people spent less time marching outside of clinics and more time working with teen programs it would be a good start. And no not just the health clinic. I'm talking Boy and Girls Clubs, Inter City Youth sports leagues, the local Youth Church group- anything that would involve a positive interaction between a responsible adult and a young person. Studies have shown that kids involved in groups and programs of this nature are far less likely to be involved in drugs, gang activity and by a wide margin less likely to become or get someone else pregnant. So many of these programs have been cut or are at risk of being cut due to lack of funding and lack of volunteers.

If owners of dogs can teach them to behave, why can't more parents teach their children to do the same?

 

[Contrarian]

Hoot, you have the sensibility of a rational person and I say bravo, because you can see the resultant consequences of making abortion illegal. There is no reasonable person who feels abortion is a good thing. It is always a tragedy when people are very often forced into making this decision. It is even a greater tragedy when the young, the poor, the raped or abused frightened girl would be forced to self induce, or seek the assistance of a butcher. We all agree it is terrible.

Pac, I think your suggestions for helping prevent un-wanted pregnancies deserves merit, but I didn't see a plan for preventing rape and abuse. I hope you are not suggesting that molested child should be forced to endure a pregnancy and delivery? She wasn't tormented, violated and psychologically harmed enough? I sense your traditional conservative leaning, but are you rational enough to include in your programs of prevention, free access to birth control for these young people, or does that violate some moral code? Wouldn't free access to contraception also help lower the number of abortions, but is also something that is fought tooth and nail to prevent,in the conservative camp?

Lastly, Fant, you were kind enough to come up with the number of abortions (you didn't show the source however) but I haven't seen any statistics on the number of babies adopted by you anti-abortion activists? Since we discussed this earlier, have you stepped up to the plate yet and taken a young scared girl under your protection? Paid for her medical care? Agreed to raise her child as your own? Pay for their food, housing and education etc? Still distancing yourself from the solution?? According to your plan (and lack of personal commitment), there would have been over 1.7 million unwanted babies in institutional care since 1990. It's neat. It's clean. You don't have to see them or deal with them. You don't have to hear them when they cry at night. You don't have to deal with their psychological problems when they question why their Mom didn't want them and that none of those nice anti-abortion people wanted them either... so dig into your library of questionable and definitively biased "facts" and get us the number of your camp who have taken the direct responsibility to resolve this problem. And please don't bore us with the indirect, institutional, somebody else will take care of the problem drool. What are YOU doing other than BLOVIATING on the subject... geez, I wonder how many children O'Reilly, Limbaugh or Coombs have adopted?????????? I can give you that number...

NONE

 

[Fantasea]

Hoot, you have the sensibility of a rational person and I say bravo, because you can see the resultant consequences of making abortion illegal. There is no reasonable person who feels abortion is a good thing. It is always a tragedy when people are very often forced into making this decision. It is even a greater tragedy when the young, the poor, the raped or abused frightened girl would be forced to self induce, or seek the assistance of a butcher. We all agree it is terrible.

The consequences of making abortion illegal would be monumental. Every year, a million and a half children would live to be born and take their rightful place among us.

If everyone agrees, as you do, that abortion is a bad thing, then it must be time foe a change, don't you think?

No one is 'forced'. It is purely voluntary. The incidence of pregnancy arising from rape, as with any single sexual encounter, is extremely limited. Also, the routine medical treatment for rape victims, generally dilation and curetage, while not specifically intended to induce an abortion because it is not determined whether the victim is actually pregnant, will, nevertheless, result in unknowingly terminating a pregnancy if, in fact, one may exist.

Is being young or poor sufficient reason to take a human life?

Pac, I think your suggestions for helping prevent un-wanted pregnancies deserves merit, but I didn't see a plan for preventing rape and abuse. I hope you are not suggesting that molested child should be forced to endure a pregnancy and delivery? She wasn't tormented, violated and psychologically harmed enough? I sense your traditional conservative leaning, but are you rational enough to include in your programs of prevention, free access to birth control for these young people, or does that violate some moral code? Wouldn't free access to contraception also help lower the number of abortions, but is also something that is fought tooth and nail to prevent,in the conservative camp?

In the grand scheme of things, there will always be child molestation; but it does not occur with any frequency that compares to the million and a half children who are killed in the womb every year.

With respect to 'prevention', as I wrote earlier, I long for the days when a father, on being introduced, for the first time, to his daughter's date, took the young man aside, put his arm around the fellow's shoulder and explained the consequences, should the daughter be violated.

At the same time, the mother was helping the daughter with her coat, she reminded her that only two types of woman removed their hats or their lingerie while on a date; sluts and hookers. The difference depended on whether a fee was involved.

But, of course 'the god of political correctness', so worshipped these days, precludes any notion of personal responsibility, doesn't it?

Lastly, Fant, you were kind enough to come up with the number of abortions (you didn't show the source however) but I haven't seen any statistics on the number of babies adopted by you anti-abortion activists? Since we discussed this earlier, have you stepped up to the plate yet and taken a young scared girl under your protection? Paid for her medical care? Agreed to raise her child as your own? Pay for their food, housing and education etc? Still distancing yourself from the solution?? According to your plan (and lack of personal commitment), there would have been over 1.7 million unwanted babies in institutional care since 1990. It's neat. It's clean. You don't have to see them or deal with them. You don't have to hear them when they cry at night. You don't have to deal with their psychological problems when they question why their Mom didn't want them and that none of those nice anti-abortion people wanted them either... so dig into your library of questionable and definitively biased "facts" and get us the number of your camp who have taken the direct responsibility to resolve this problem. And please don't bore us with the indirect, institutional, somebody else will take care of the problem drool. What are YOU doing other than BLOVIATING on the subject... geez, I wonder how many children O'Reilly, Limbaugh or Coombs have adopted?????????? I can give you that number...

NONE

All of the information on numbers can be easily confirmed by a little surfing. Many of them come from the website of the Centers for Disease Control, a government organization that furnishes all kinds of useful information. You may wish to spend a little time there to fill in the gaps.

What you refuse to accept is the fact that the vast majority of abortions are performed, not on the poor, the disadvantaged, the young, the raped, and the like. A greatly disproportionate number of abortions are performed on well to do women who decide that the pregnancy has occurred at an opportune time. Having a child would interfere with some facet of their life. There are those, too, who wish to genetically engineer their family so as to have a particular mix of boys and/or girls. Too bad for whoever shows up out of the planned order.

I like the way you ask a question and then instruct me on your idea of the correct way for me to answer it. It reveals much about the way you fear the truth.

Irrespective of the occasional local horror story which the socialist-lib-Dems media apologists blast across the country, imbuing it with the stature of a national disaster, unwanted children are still better off alive, rather than dead, aren't they?

I can't prevent your blatant mockery. However, the advocacy of those folks, the taxes they pay,and their support of charities are of far greater value than adopting a child, or two.

 

[Pacridge]

If owners of dogs can teach them to behave, why can't more parents teach their children to do the same?

Asking why they don't- won't make them suddenly take interest and start teaching their children, Will it?

 

[Pacridge]

Pac, I think your suggestions for helping prevent un-wanted pregnancies deserves merit, but I didn't see a plan for preventing rape and abuse. I hope you are not suggesting that molested child should be forced to endure a pregnancy and delivery? She wasn't tormented, violated and psychologically harmed enough? I sense your traditional conservative leaning, but are you rational enough to include in your programs of prevention, free access to birth control for these young people, or does that violate some moral code? Wouldn't free access to contraception also help lower the number of abortions, but is also something that is fought tooth and nail to prevent,in the conservative camp?

You're right I didn't address any plans for rape or abuse. As it turns out I don't have all the answers. Big surprise. I don't really know if what I suggest would work to curb the teen problem. Just from the studies I've read the data suggest those types of programs do help. And yes I would favor free birth control prevention programs as part of a plan of attack. Do I like the idea of teens going around having sex? No I don't. But they're certainly doing that now and let's just be completely honest with ourselves- we're not going to unring that bell anytime soon. This idea that we can duck our heads in the sand and simply teach our children not to have sex, it's just not realistic. So personally I'd favor whatever would reduce the problem. In part I see the problem as unwanted pregnancy. But only in part. I see the problem as larger than that and the issues more complex. We have children in this country trying to raise children. To me that is a major problem. I think that by simply attempting to outlaw abortion, marching on clinics or god forbid hurting or killing those that perform abortions; by doing these actions we're not dealing with the larger issues and will never really make any real dents in the overall problem. In a sense I see that as trying to drink the ocean dry when it might make more sense to collectively put our fingers in the dike.

 

[Hoot]

I think that by simply attempting to outlaw abortion, marching on clinics or god forbid hurting or killing those that perform abortions; by doing these actions we're not dealing with the larger issues and will never really make any real dents in the overall problem. In a sense I see that as trying to drink the ocean dry when it might make more sense to collectively put our fingers in the dike.

"Fingers in the dike?"

Are you sure that wasn't a Freudian slip, Pacridge? (J/K)

 

[Pacridge]

"Fingers in the dike?"

Are you sure that wasn't a Freudian slip, Pacridge? (J/K)

Ah, no sorry I didn't even catch that, I honestly meant dike as in dam. Maybe I've just had too much or not enough coffee today? Or possibly I should stop pouring in so much Jack?

 

[Contrarian]

Fant, I thank you again (sincerely) for filling in the "blanks" while presenting your interpretation of the truth. I have no fear of it. I embrace it, I just haven't come to the exact same conclusions on this very complex issue. I prefer to examine the entire problem, not just one portion.

You make some very strong positive arguements concerning the behavioral norms and standards for what sounds like an Ozzie & Harriet - 1950's moral code. Unfortunately, in the REAL WORLD, millions of kids don't even have the benefit of two parents in a household or someone to feed and guide them. It is very ugly out there and (geez, I hate to follow your lead, but...) the Fascist - Conservative - Religious Right - Republicans, have no sense of what is going on in the ghettos, trailer parks and tenements of big cities. And even if they did, they ignore it with a self righteous arrogance that disregards the facts. You can't inject your moral code into people like a Vitamion B 12 shot. Your camp trumpets the virtues of Family Values, and I agree whole heartedly with you. Strong family unit, role models, parental presence, economic growth potential (see, I do agree with you on a great deal!!), and education are the keys out of this prison. However, the flaw in your arguement (in my humble, but correct opinion) is that by expanding the underclass and bringing more poor and dysfunctional children into this world without the "family" core in place is irresponsible and almost criminal. I absolutely agree with you when it comes to the affluent, who have decided upon some Orwellian form of family engineering. They are repulsive, but those who lay out blanket restrictions on the life choices of others without contributing to an aggressive solution (adoption, providing the missing "family" - not institutionalization) are flacid activists. I say it again... put up or shut up.

Pac, you at least have a grasp of reality. It would be nice if we were living in the "Fantasea" world (pun intended!) of Leave it to Beaver and 50's Moms and Dads; things would be different. We are not and we need to find 21st century answers for the 21st century reality. These aren't Victorian times and the accepted standards of morality from 50 years ago will not be returning anytime soon. So, free and easy access to contraception is a damn site better than watching those abortion numbers climb. The lesser of two evils?? Try to get that past a GOP congress and the Preacher in Chief. You can't have it both ways guys!

 

[Pacridge]

Pac, you at least have a grasp of reality. It would be nice if we were living in the "Fantasea" world (pun intended!) of Leave it to Beaver and 50's Moms and Dads; things would be different. We are not and we need to find 21st century answers for the 21st century reality. These aren't Victorian times and the accepted standards of morality from 50 years ago will not be returning anytime soon. So, free and easy access to contraception is a damn site better than watching those abortion numbers climb. The lesser of two evils?? Try to get that past a GOP congress and the Preacher in Chief. You can't have it both ways guys!

As I've said on this site before; I used to vote mainly conservative and wouldn't have even thought about voting for a "liberal." A lot of my voting preferences were really rooted in fiscal issues though. Some, like the abortion issue, were socially conservative. But mainly I just viewed the liberal agenda as being for big government programs and lots of taxes, things I didn't think would help America as much as hurt it. In a lot of ways I still feel that way, though in some cases I'm having to re-look at some of these issues as well. Finding out that a lot of people in the media that I trusted were basically lying to me didn't sit well with me.

The reason I'm talking about all this in this thread is I never really spent that much time talking to any number of people with a liberal outlook for any length of time until this past election. For several reasons, not just one, I decided GWB, wasn't going to get my vote in 2004. I found myself talking to people I probably wouldn't have spoken to in the past. To be honest I was really quite surprised by their attitude regarding several issues. The abortion issue probably surprised me more than any other. I guess I'm not really sure what I expected. Maybe I expected an "It's my body if I want an abortion I'll damn well get an abortion" type attitude. But really I never met one person on the left with that attitude. I never met one person who ever said they would ever want an abortion. Not one who thought that an abortion was a good idea. I guess they must be out there? I just never met them. Of the many people I met and spoke to concerning this issue they all thought working toward lowering the number of abortions was a good idea. Surprised me. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think we're as separated by this issue as we might think. I'm beginning to believe both sides would favor measures to reduce abortions. Though it's going to be hard work to find common ground on just how to work in that direction. But in my mind lots of innocent children are at stake and both sides should start working toward making a real effort. Rather than just fighting each other, in the end lives are being lost. Sure you're always going to have those on one side or the other that are "true to their cause." The slippery slope argument guys on each side. "If you allow any restrictions, that'll just open the door to restricting all and pretty soon even if a woman is dying they won't let her abort the baby." "If you allow just one baby to be aborted, you're just opening the door to the mass killings all over again." And yes it would be nice if we didn't have all these children running around having sex. But as I said earlier I don't think we're going to un-ring that bell now. And yes, teen sex is not the only issue leading to abortions. But it's a major part of the issue. So, let's get to work trying to solve the part of the problem we may have the ability to solve. And while we're at it there's no reason we can't try to introduce programs that might reduce teen sex a well, is there?

Of course I could be wrong, that's just my opinion.

 

[Contrarian]

I applaude you Pac because you are at least open minded enough to realize that people with different views on this issue are not monsters with a blood lust. No one thinks that abortion is a "good" thing. It is a tragedy for most who encounter the reality of facing it. On the other hand, it is not up to me or Fant, or you, to decide what is right for another person because we are not living their life. As I have stated many time; if you are willing to take your principals and beliefs into your own home, you have the right to talk. If not, you have no right to tell another person what to do.

Pac, you are a good person, who is truly open minded and concerned not only with the question of abortion, but of the consequences to those facing the decision.

 

[Pacridge]

I applaude you Pac because you are at least open minded enough to realize that people with different views on this issue are not monsters with a blood lust. No one thinks that abortion is a "good" thing. It is a tragedy for most who encounter the reality of facing it. On the other hand, it is not up to me or Fant, or you, to decide what is right for another person because we are not living their life. As I have stated many time; if you are willing to take your principals and beliefs into your own home, you have the right to talk. If not, you have no right to tell another person what to do.

Pac, you are a good person, who is truly open minded and concerned not only with the question of abortion, but of the consequences to those facing the decision.

Yeah, this idea that the other side has this "blood lust" is part of the problem. At least in my mind anyway. I know when I ended up speaking more and more to "liberal's" that's really what I expected. I honestly expected someone to tell me something, like I said, "it's my body if I want an abortion I'll have an abortion." After I decided not to vote for W and to work to get Kerry elected, I decide I should most certainly not bring up my views on abortion. So I didn't. But after going to a few rallies and meetings. I ran into some people who had brought the subject up, I didn't bring it up, but I listened. Damned near fell off my chair. What I thought they were going to say about about abortion is nothing close to what they said about it. I think it's what's been drilled into me since an early age, an us Vs. them attitude. But the reality is, as you pointed out, no one thinks abortion is a good thing. In the end none of it's helping the country, nor certainly not the children that are losing they're lives daily to this nightmare.

 

[Fantasea]

Women will still need abortions? Why will they "need" abortions? I think I agree with just about everything you stated here but I'm sure anyone needs an abortion.

Many 'need' abortions because motherhood would interfere with their lifestyles or careers. Abortion on demand provides the 'escape hatch', as it were. All they have to do is say to an abortionist, "I don't want this damned kid.", and it's gone.

I do like your thought that the wealthy will just fly to nearest legal clinic while the poor will just have back ally abortions.

'W H I P' - - Wealth has its privileges. Maybe that would be motivation for some of the 'poor' women you lament to make the effort to climb a few rungs up the economic ladder.

[QUOTE If they totally outlaw abortions it will take all of five minutes for a flood how-to-do-it guides to appear on the internet.

No doubt you are correct. After all the how-to-do-it-yourself Build Your Own Bomb websites were plentiful until recently.

Again, I think we should be doing more to curb the unwanted pregnancies to begin with. And I think there are ways to do just that. I think if the anti-abortion people spent less time marching outside of clinics and more time working with teen programs it would be a good start. And no not just the health clinic. I'm talking Boy and Girls Clubs, Inter City Youth sports leagues, the local Youth Church group- anything that would involve a positive interaction between a responsible adult and a young person. Studies have shown that kids involved in groups and programs of this nature are far less likely to be involved in drugs, gang activity and by a wide margin less likely to become or get someone else pregnant. So many of these programs have been cut or are at risk of being cut due to lack of funding and lack of volunteers.

Once again, you are correct. It is a great idea. And to the extent possible, that's exactly what those who oppose the pro-death crowd do. The problem is, opposing abortion is politically incorrect, it is characterized as imposing one's will on another, instead of protecting a human life, and totally resisted by Planned Parenthood, NOW, and the ACLU in every venue.

 

[Fantasea]

Asking why they don't- won't make them suddenly take interest and start teaching their children, Will it?

That's true. The problem parents face is incarceration for their efforts to combat the liberal concept that children are free spirits and the only role that parents may play in their lives is to feed, shelter, and clothe them in the current fashion fad, while being responsible for any financial liability which may result from irresponsible childish behavior.

The fact that the school nurse must contact a parent before administering an analgesic to ease the pain of menstrual cramps but can set the wheels in motion for an abortion while keeping the parents totally in the dark is indicative of the lengths to which Planned Parenthood, NOW, and the ACLU will go to further their aims.