Judge orders Indiana DoC to give a baby killer his taxpayer-funded gender surgery

[eohrnberger]

If this is accurate and not Foxed up for ratings and full pearl-clutching effect, then I say: No. She can complete her transition once she is out of prison.

If she is in serious mental health danger due to not getting the surgeries she wants, that needs to be determined first by some pretty thorough psych testing.

I have no issue with mental health consoling during that person's prison term to help them through their issues, on the tax payer dime.
Gender surgery is just a bridge too far.

 

[Lisa]

I have no issue with mental health consoling during that person's prison term to help them through their issues, on the tax payer dime.
Gender surgery is just a bridge too far.

Counseling and psychotropic meds do not effectively treat gender dysphoria, despite your transphobic bigotry. That would be an example of malpractice on the part of the state. Despite the fact that she is a prisoner, she cannot be abused or neglected because of the 8th Amendment protections from cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[BrotherFease]

If this is accurate and not Foxed up for ratings and full pearl-clutching effect, then I say: No. She can complete her transition once she is out of prison.

If she is in serious mental health danger due to not getting the surgeries she wants, that needs to be determined first by some pretty thorough psych testing.

I read a couple of articles, and here's the point of confusion: Who is paying for the bottom surgery?

I understand the argument: Prisoners have constitutional rights. If they have a medical issue, then they have the right to seek medical treatment. But does that "freedom for medical treatment", mean the government has to pay for the treatment?

In other words, if the prisoner wasn't in jail for a crime, would the government still be "paying" for the surgery?

I have known a couple of transgender people over the years. All of them tell me that bottom surgery isn't cheap and would cost at least 50k dollars as a baseline.

Are we really going to have the mentality of: If you cannot afford your gender-affirming care or even your cancer treatment, just commit a crime and it's all taken care of.

 

[Lisa]

I read a couple of articles, and here's the point of confusion: Who is paying for the bottom surgery?

I understand the argument: Prisoners have constitutional rights. If they have a medical issue, then they have the right to seek medical treatment. But does that "freedom for medical treatment", mean the government has to pay for the treatment?

In other words, if the prisoner wasn't in jail for a crime, would the government still be "paying" for the surgery?

I have known a couple of transgender people over the years. All of them tell me that bottom surgery isn't cheap and would cost at least 50k dollars as a baseline.

Are we really going to have the mentality of: If you cannot afford your gender-affirming care or even your cancer treatment, just commit a crime and it's all taken care of.

Medicare, the VA, and Medicaid all pay for gender affirming care services.

Its much cheaper than heart surgery, a stroke, or a transplant.

 

[eohrnberger]

Counseling and psychotropic meds do not effectively treat gender dysphoria, despite your transphobic bigotry.

The willingness to publicly fund mental health consoling to treat gender dysphoria is an example of 'transphobic bigotry'?
I don't think so.

Taking the position of denying mental health consoling to treat gender dysphoria would be an example of 'transphobic bigotry'.
But that's not my position, is it?

No, this appears to be you calling anything short of the public writing an open check for gender surgeries for all 'transphobic bigotry'.
Sorry, but it's simply not.

That would be an example of malpractice on the part of the state. Despite the fact that she is a prisoner, she cannot be abused or neglected because of the 8th Amendment protections from cruel and unusual punishment.

As a clear example of the above, you clearly consider the public not writing an open check for gender surgeries for all as 'cruel and unusual punishment'.
It isn't cruel and unusual punishment either.

 

[Lisa]

The willingness to publicly fund mental health consoling to treat gender dysphoria is an example of 'transphobic bigotry'?
I don't think so.

Taking the position of denying mental health consoling to treat gender dysphoria would be an example of 'transphobic bigotry'.
But that's not my position, is it?

No, this appears to be you calling anything short of the public writing an open check for gender surgeries for all 'transphobic bigotry'.
Sorry, but it's simply not.

This is your opinion but this is medically necessary care just as heart surgery or diabetes medication, despite your conservative bias. You seem to be under the impression that this medical care is merely cosmetic surgery like a nose job, botox, or butt implants.

The DSM is very clear on this issue, as is the APA and the AMA. https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302.85-(f64.9)

As a clear example of the above, you clearly consider the public not writing an open check for gender surgeries for all as 'cruel and unusual punishment'.
It isn't cruel and unusual punishment either.

Denial of necessary medical care that prevents suffering or suicide is cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[eohrnberger]

This is your opinion but this is medically necessary care just as heart surgery or diabetes medication, despite your conservative bias. You seem to be under the impression that this medical care is merely cosmetic surgery like a nose job, botox, or butt implants.

The DSM is very clear on this issue, as is the APA and the AMA. https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302.85-(f64.9)

Denial of necessary medical care that prevents suffering or suicide is cruel and unusual punishment.

Except that even with gender confirming surgeries those troubled people are committing suicide.
There are a number who have had gender confirming surgeries and want to transition back, and can't.
At least without such surgeries that's more of an option to transition back than with them.

Gender confirming surgeries isn't the panacea solution which you appear to believe it is and want to make everyone else believe they are.

 

[Lisa]

Except that even with gender confirming surgeries those troubled people are committing suicide.

The denial of effective care causes severe mental health problems.

There are a number who have had gender confirming surgeries and want to transition back, and can't.

The detransition rate is less than 5%, so 95% are happy and had their lives improved by transition care and surgery.

At least without such surgeries that's more of an option to transition back than with them.

Gender confirming surgeries isn't the panacea solution which you appear to believe it is and want to make everyone else believe they are.

The AMA and APA say that you are wrong. Where did you get your MD or PhD in Psych' if you want to go against established medical science? How many papers have you published?

 

[BrotherFease]

Medicare, the VA, and Medicaid all pay for gender affirming care services.

Its much cheaper than heart surgery, a stroke, or a transplant.

So she would have paid the same amount if she wasn't in prison?

Do prisoners get Medicaid?

 

[eohrnberger]

The denial of effective care causes severe mental health problems.

The question being raised is if gender confirming surgeries are effective care.
Seems that you are confirming that gender confirming surgeries can cause worse health problems.
OK.

The knife isn't always the solution nor the best solution, which appears to be your stance on this.

The detransition rate is less than 5%, so 95% are happy and had their lives improved by transition care and surgery.

So at least 5% of the patients suffered permanent damage. Probably more, as wanting to detransition is only one aspect of regret.

The AMA and APA say that you are wrong. Where did you get your MD or PhD in Psych' if you want to go against established medical science? How many papers have you published?

This the canard that you always raise when challenged on the effectiveness or the permanent damage which gender confirming surgeries can cause.

I suppose from your point of view, every child should be transitioned to asexual as early as possible until they decide whether they are male or female, and then intervene, and that all this be footed by the tax payers.
Yeah, OK. A bit hyperbolic but this the perception of your advocacy.

I'm far more drawn to the idea that "Perfect Exactly The Way God Made You" as a starting point at least.

 

[Lisa]

So she would have paid the same amount if she wasn't in prison?

Do prisoners get Medicaid?

Medicaid pays for prisoner medical care.

 

[BrotherFease]

Seems that you are confirming that gender confirming surgeries can cause worse health problems.

Your argument is misleading at best.

The problem here is that many transgender people experience social discrimination and even victims of hate-crimes.

It's not the treatment that made their symptoms get worse, but social rejection.

No studies claim that gender issues causing more harm than good.

More over, regret rate is much less than other forms of cosmetic surgeries.

 

[BrotherFease]

Medicaid pays for prisoner medical care.

Okay. Thanks for the information. I am definitely for the judges decision then. If gender affirming care is covered by medicaid, then there's no reason why she should be denied care.

 

[eohrnberger]

Your argument is misleading at best.

The problem here is that many transgender people experience social discrimination and even victims of hate-crimes.

There's be a difference between what is claimed to be a hate crime and what actually is a hate crime.
I believe it has been claimed that not using the demanded pronouns is a hate crime, and I don't think it even comes close to being one.

It's not the treatment that made their symptoms get worse, but social rejection.

I'm sure that demanding things of others is sure to reduce the perceived social rejection. </sarcasm>

No studies claim that gender issues causing more harm than good.

More over, regret rate is much less than other forms of cosmetic surgeries.

So you are admitting that gender confirming surgery is cosmetic. OK.
The problem is that if a cosmetic procedure is regretted, there's a better change that further surgery can change it.
I'm thinking if someone got their lips or breasts enlarged, there are surgical reversals possible.
I don't believe that there are any surgical reversals to gender confirming surgeries, or if they are, they are far more complex, difficult and risky than other surgical reversals.

 

[Lisa]

The question being raised is if gender confirming surgeries are effective care.
Seems that you are confirming that gender confirming surgeries can cause worse health problems.

There is no medical care that is 100% effective and without risk. That is why you must sign a liability waiver when you go to the hospital. Did you ever read a bottle of Tylenol or Pepto? When was the last time you got a prescription filled? Did you bother to read the warning sheet that is required to be included? Do you want to close all hospitals and ban all medication, even OTC meds because of those risks?

OK.

The knife isn't always the solution nor the best solution, which appears to be your stance on this.

Surgery is the best way to address gender dysphoria, after the patient has been diagnosed and been on HRT for a period of usually 2+ years, if the patient desires that and the treatment team agrees that is the best course of action.

So at least 5% of the patients suffered permanent damage. Probably more, as wanting to detransition is only one aspect of regret.

95% of them have their lives improved. If you scored 95% on a test or an annual performance rating at work, did you get an A+ or did you fail?

This the canard that you always raise when challenged on the effectiveness or the permanent damage which gender confirming surgeries can cause.

Do you have a better course of action with a 95% effectiveness over the past 30 years? Cancer treatment/surgery is lucky to have a survival rate of 50% over 10 years, so do we stop treating cancer because it isn't perfect? Strokes and heart disease arent much better.

I suppose from your point of view, every child should be transitioned to asexual as early as possible until they decide whether they are male or female, and then intervene, and that all this be footed by the tax payers.
Yeah, OK. A bit hyperbolic but this the perception of your advocacy.

Your ideas are disgusting. Only 5% of people are trans or non binary. Only 10% of people ever experience any form of gender questioning that half will outgrow instead of being diagnosed with gender identity or as gender dysphoric.

I'm far more drawn to the idea that "Perfect Exactly The Way God Made You" as a starting point at least.

There are no perfect solutions in medicine or mental heath. Everything has a risk and reward that must be considered on a per patient basis.

 

[BrotherFease]

There's be a difference between what is claimed to be a hate crime and what actually is a hate crime.
I believe it has been claimed that not using the demanded pronouns is a hate crime, and I don't think it even comes close to being one.

I'm sure that demanding things of others is sure to reduce the perceived social rejection. </sarcasm>

So you are admitting that gender confirming surgery is cosmetic. OK.
The problem is that if a cosmetic procedure is regretted, there's a better change that further surgery can change it.
I'm thinking if someone got their lips or breasts enlarged, there are surgical reversals possible.
I don't believe that there are any surgical reversals to gender confirming surgeries, or if they are, they are far more complex, difficult and risky than other surgical reversals.

When your parents, family, and friends abandon you, that's social discrimination.

When employers refuse to hire you because you're transgender, that's social discrimination.

When you're a victim of domestic violence, whether verbally or physically, that can be a hate crime for violence and domestic violence.

Transgender people experience this. You cannot with a straight face deny this doesn't hurt the well-being of people.

If you people constantly told you, your existence was fraud, make-believe, and your life doesn't matter, you would go nuts as well.

This is why it's important we treat gender dysphoria and give people all the material necessary.

Getting breast implants is cosmetic surgery.

 

[uptower]

They're quite happy for their tax dollars to fund the bombing of middle eastern brown kids.

 

[BrotherFease]

They're quite happy for their tax dollars to fund the bombing of middle eastern brown kids.

Cost less than Trump going to Florida every weekend or making cameo appearances at sporting events.

 

[Crunchtime]

When your parents, family, and friends abandon you, that's social discrimination.

When employers refuse to hire you because you're transgender, that's social discrimination.

When you're a victim of domestic violence, whether verbally or physically, that can be a hate crime for violence and domestic violence.

Transgender people experience this. You cannot with a straight face deny this doesn't hurt the well-being of people.

If you people constantly told you, your existence was fraud, make-believe, and your life doesn't matter, you would go nuts as well.

This is why it's important we treat gender dysphoria and give people all the material necessary.

Getting breast implants is cosmetic surgery.

So you’re in favor of perpetuating the gender lie? And you call that compassion?

 

[Crunchtime]

They're quite happy for their tax dollars to fund the bombing of middle eastern brown kids.

I don’t think anyone is happy about the situation in Gaza. Except Hamas. In their twisted thinking what’s unfolding there is good and was their goal from the beginning. Death and destruction is the goal of Islam. Jews and Christians are to be slaughtered. But just to keep the record straight the majority of those middle eastern brown kids are to be slaughtered also. Hamas has no love for Palestinians. Kids or otherwise so put the blame where it belongs.

 

[BrotherFease]

So you’re in favor of perpetuating the gender lie? And you call that compassion?

I am in full support of allowing people to live in a free country.

If prisoners can have access to medicaid, then I have no issue with somebody getting treatment for their gender dysphoria.

Would you mind sharing with us your medical background on here?

 

[Crunchtime]

I am in full support of allowing people to live in a free country.

If prisoners can have access to medicaid, then I have no issue with somebody getting treatment for their gender dysphoria.

Would you mind sharing with us your medical background on here?

Do you think that a medical degree is necessary to discern a lie? You didn’t answer my question. Do you call supporting this course of treatment compassion? Which would automatically call someone with an opposing viewpoint, WHAT? A bigot?

 

[EnchantedMuggle]

I read a couple of articles, and here's the point of confusion: Who is paying for the bottom surgery?

I understand the argument: Prisoners have constitutional rights. If they have a medical issue, then they have the right to seek medical treatment. But does that "freedom for medical treatment", mean the government has to pay for the treatment?

In other words, if the prisoner wasn't in jail for a crime, would the government still be "paying" for the surgery?

I have known a couple of transgender people over the years. All of them tell me that bottom surgery isn't cheap and would cost at least 50k dollars as a baseline.

Are we really going to have the mentality of: If you cannot afford your gender-affirming care or even your cancer treatment, just commit a crime and it's all taken care of.

The other issue, as I see it, is that it isn't just the surgery. The recovery is long and can be painful and involve setbacks and even further surgeries. This depends upon the exact surgery, there are a couple of MtF bottom surgery options.

So we're talking about one seriously long haul here and potentially up to a year or even more of care.

I am pretty surprised that what's being proposed first isn't some extensive psychiatric counseling, not to change her mind (obviously) but to help her deal with this time in prison before she can fully transition. And to assess whether she actually is suicidal or at risk for harming herself or others (more than she would be already) due to not fully transitioning while in prison.

I mean why isn't that on the table? It's just "give her bottom surgery because stats say X about delaying bottom surgery"?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

She didn't commit a capital crime and she wasn't sentenced to die for her conviction, so she cannot be put to death,

Ummmm, thats a dude.

 

[Phys251]

The denial of effective care causes severe mental health problems.


The detransition rate is less than 5%, so 95% are happy and had their lives improved by transition care and surgery.

The AMA and APA say that you are wrong. Where did you get your MD or PhD in Psych' if you want to go against established medical science? How many papers have you published?

As you know, most of those who detransition do so from external pressure.