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Jerusalem must be divided

I'll tell you one thing CJ and I won't change the subject.

The major problem in Arab countries is the corruption.

Of course they'd like some of the democracy of the West. The problem though is that the West always came to "spred democracy" in Arab countries with tanks and guns. They never came in with teachers and doctors.

back to the OP
 
I'll tell you one thing CJ and I won't change the subject.

The major problem in Arab countries is the corruption.

Of course they'd like some of the democracy of the West. The problem though is that the West always came to "spred democracy" in Arab countries with tanks and guns. They never came in with teachers and doctors.

back to the OP

They shouldn't have had to come with anything, and it is the ARABS fault, not the west's fault, for the situation.

We didn't go into India or Asia or anywhere else with teachers either, after all.

Things will never, ever get better until the Arab culture of refusing to admit weakness, refusing to introspect about the situation, refusing to aknowledge RESPONSIBILITY for past and present failings is changed. Until then, every exercise in explaining failure will look to a scapegoat, will look to make excuses, and will look to the simplistic fundamentalism/authoritarianism/fascism/demagoguery that has been the staple go to approach every time the Arabs fail to achieve anything.
 
Things will never, ever get better until the Arab culture of refusing to admit weakness, refusing to introspect about the situation, refusing to aknowledge RESPONSIBILITY for past and present failings is changed. Until then, every exercise in explaining failure will look to a scapegoat, will look to make excuses, and will look to the simplistic fundamentalism/authoritarianism/fascism/demagoguery that has been the staple go to approach every time the Arabs fail to achieve anything.

I agree and think that is very accurate assessment but to be fair, this issue is not just seen only within Arabs but Muslims in general - the inability to acknowledge faults and question in a similar way the West does. Which probably explains the lack of development both socially and economically.
 
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They shouldn't have had to come with anything, and it is the ARABS fault, not the west's fault, for the situation.

We didn't go into India or Asia or anywhere else with teachers either, after all.

Things will never, ever get better until the Arab culture of refusing to admit weakness, refusing to introspect about the situation, refusing to aknowledge RESPONSIBILITY for past and present failings is changed. Until then, every exercise in explaining failure will look to a scapegoat, will look to make excuses, and will look to the simplistic fundamentalism/authoritarianism/fascism/demagoguery that has been the staple go to approach every time the Arabs fail to achieve anything.

No, it is not entirely the Arabs fault. Things happen for a reason.
Saying it is the "Arab culture" to refuse to introspect is wrong. Of course the Arabs should change, of course they need to admit their mistakes and build a more progressive society, but the West should also admit its mistakes and work in the right direction for the sake of everyone and not just its own personal interests, believe me that will help the situation immensely as well.

now please back to the OP.
 
The site you linked has an article regarding the controversy with religious interpretations pertaining to Jewish Law and Temple Mount access. The Temple Institute: Who's Afraid of the Temple Mount? Some Rabbis support it, others do not.

Regardless, you have not addressed my question. Why do Muslims have the authority to oppress and silence all non-Muslims on the Temple Mount? Why do they deserve sole control and authority over the holiest site in Judaism? Also, what do the opinions of Rabbis have to do with Muslim leadership? It's not like they are oppressing Jews to uphold Jewish Law. And what about Christians? There is nothing Biblically that would ban a Christian from visiting the Temple Mount and praying to God at a site. You have not addressed the Islamic oppression of those who do not belong to the Muslim faith and their right to have freedom of religion on the holiest site in Judaism. I respectfully ask that you respond to this question and stop trying to divert the subject to why Jews theologically should not visit the Temple Mount.

Why do Muslims have the authority to administer the Temple Mount? Because they were given that authority when Israel captured Palestinian territories in the Six Day War. It's not oppression when you are upholding Jewish law which is enforced by the Israeli government. Nice propoganda attempt.

"Some rabbis support it, others do not." That is disingenuous at best. The majority of Chief Rabbis of the differrent sects in Israel support the ban. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel supports the ban. The ban is not an Islamic invention like you are attempting to purport. But that won't stop you from spewing ignorant comments.
 
LOL. If we disregard the biblical narrative, Jewish history doesn't begin in Jerusalem until a few decades before Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire.

Archeological evidence in this land are from hundreds of years before Alexander the Great was even born.

Arabs can also lay the same "nation" claim to Jerusalem, as they are also the progeny of Abraham.

Abraham died hunderds of years before Jerusalem was founded, by King David, who wasn't only an Israelite but Judehaish (or Jew if you'd like).

David, Solomon, and Jesus are Prophets in Islam and Jerusalem was the direction of prayer (qibla) for Muslims in the beginning of Islam. Did Jerusalem have to be a capital for an Islamic Caliphate for it to have significance in Islam? Jerusalem was not a strategic place to have a capital in any of the Caliphates.

I do not dispute nor care about Jerusalem's significance in Islam, the point I'm making is that its irrelevant, its significance to the Palestinian nation is all that matters.

Except only Muslims over 45 years old can go inside Al-Aqsa. That is why I have always agreed with the idea that Jerusalem should have been an internationally administered zone. No country has sovereignty over it

But the whole idea of Peace between our nations is that Muslims under 45 years old will not riot and throw stones at the Jewish worshipers down at the western wall, isn't it? Are you expecting Palestinians to continue to be a security threat to Israelies after peace will come?
 
No, it is not entirely the Arabs fault. Things happen for a reason.
Saying it is the "Arab culture" to refuse to introspect is wrong. Of course the Arabs should change, of course they need to admit their mistakes and build a more progressive society, but the West should also admit its mistakes and work in the right direction for the sake of everyone and not just its own personal interests, believe me that will help the situation immensely as well.

now please back to the OP.

Sorry, I don't agree. No nation or people has an obligation to help make up for other people's faults. We may WISH to do so, or even do so of our own selfless inclinations, but there is no obligation.

Every nation acts in its own best interests. Why should the US care if China and Russia and every single middle east country does not?

As for the impact of past wrongs, I would respectfully suggest that none of the past wrongs of Europeans to the Arab world come even close to the wrongs undertaken (and that are continuing) by the Arab/Muslim world towards the west.

Were it not for the ability of the west to repel Muslims from france and Vienna, it would have ben completely over-run. So the fact that there were a few decades of colonial rule in the middle east is worth precisely nothing, in my view, in terms of obligations to help Arabs improve their societies.

The Arab world wants help, fine. Ask. but don't tell me they deserve it, cause they don't.
 
Why do Muslims have the authority to administer the Temple Mount? Because they were given that authority when Israel captured Palestinian territories in the Six Day War. It's not oppression when you are upholding Jewish law which is enforced by the Israeli government. Nice propoganda attempt.

umm, who said that the territories captured were Palestinian? Not the Jordanians who controlled the territory. Not the UN, which never included east Jerusalem in the Palestinian portion of the partition. So who?
 
Why do Muslims have the authority to administer the Temple Mount? Because they were given that authority when Israel captured Palestinian territories in the Six Day War.

Palestinian territory? That's news to me. Unlike you, I was actuallt alive then and old enough to be aware of the events as they unfolded. The territory Israel captured after Nasser vowed to destroy them was not Palestinian territory -- sheesh , precious few people even called themselves Palestinan then as the PLO had only just begun its efforts at reshaping perception in such a way as to create a Palestinian national identity. The territories captured were Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian, and this was in response to the Arab aggression led by Nasser vowing to drive Israel into the sea.
 
Palestinian territory? That's news to me. Unlike you, I was actuallt alive then and old enough to be aware of the events as they unfolded. The territory Israel captured after Nasser vowed to destroy them was not Palestinian territory -- sheesh , precious few people even called themselves Palestinan then as the PLO had only just begun its efforts at reshaping perception in such a way as to create a Palestinian national identity. The territories captured were Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian, and this was in response to the Arab aggression led by Nasser vowing to drive Israel into the sea.

Probably also wrth noting that at the time the PLO had expressly stated that the palestinians had no claims on any territories thatw ere controlled by Jordan, which ... wouldn't you know it ... included east jerusalem...
 
umm, who said that the territories captured were Palestinian? Not the Jordanians who controlled the territory. Not the UN, which never included east Jerusalem in the Palestinian portion of the partition. So who?

Not the UN?

More ignorant comments:
United Nations Security Council Resolution 476 - Wikisource

Deploring the persistence of Israel, in changing the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure and the status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

Gravely concerned over the legislative steps initiated in the Israeli Knesset with the aim of changing the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;


3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;
 
Palestinian territory? That's news to me. Unlike you, I was actuallt alive then and old enough to be aware of the events as they unfolded. The territory Israel captured after Nasser vowed to destroy them was not Palestinian territory -- sheesh , precious few people even called themselves Palestinan then as the PLO had only just begun its efforts at reshaping perception in such a way as to create a Palestinian national identity. The territories captured were Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian, and this was in response to the Arab aggression led by Nasser vowing to drive Israel into the sea.

Of course it's news to you. But then again, it's you.
 
Probably also wrth noting that at the time the PLO had expressly stated that the palestinians had no claims on any territories thatw ere controlled by Jordan, which ... wouldn't you know it ... included east jerusalem...

And then what happened? Jordan gave up all claims to the West Bank/East Jerusalem to the PLO, as Egypt did the same with Gaza.

But no point in telling the whole story, right?
 
Why do Muslims have the authority to administer the Temple Mount? Because they were given that authority when Israel captured Palestinian territories in the Six Day War. It's not oppression when you are upholding Jewish law which is enforced by the Israeli government. Nice propoganda attempt.
This doesn't answer the question. Why should Muslims oppress every other religion besides their own. Why can't Jews, Christians, Ba'hais or any other faith share that freedom? If Israel really is some big bad Arab killing machine then why did they give control to Muslims after winning a war that was brought upon them by Israel's enemies? Please address my question. Why do Muslims have the right to oppress Jews, Christians, all other faiths, and deserve control of the Temple Mount which is the holiest site in Judaism?
"Some rabbis support it, others do not." That is disingenuous at best. The majority of Chief Rabbis of the differrent sects in Israel support the ban. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel supports the ban. The ban is not an Islamic invention like you are attempting to purport. But that won't stop you from spewing ignorant comments.
Um... it is a ban by the Islamic invention. As a Christian there is no human telling me I can't walk on the Temple Mount, pray to my God, or wear a cross. The Muslims who control it are the ones telling me I can't do this, not the Rabbis. Regardless, the Rabbi issue doesn't address the core problem. There are different sects in Judaism, many moderate Jews wish to go upon the Temple Mount, nearly all of them support praying at the Western Wall. Don't accuse me of spewing ignorant comments when you refuse to answer the question and bring everything back to bashing Israel.
 
Please address my question. Why do Muslims have the right to oppress Jews, Christians, all other faiths, and deserve control of the Temple Mount which is the holiest site in Judaism?
That's a question you can ask the Israeli government, since it was their decision to leave the Islamic Waqf in charge of the Temple Mount. It was their decision to enforce the ban in Jewish law that stops Jews from entering the Temple Mount.
Um... it is a ban by the Islamic invention. As a Christian there is no human telling me I can't walk on the Temple Mount, pray to my God, or wear a cross. The Muslims who control it are the ones telling me I can't do this, not the Rabbis. Regardless, the Rabbi issue doesn't address the core problem. There are different sects in Judaism, many moderate Jews wish to go upon the Temple Mount, nearly all of them support praying at the Western Wall. Don't accuse me of spewing ignorant comments when you refuse to answer the question and bring everything back to bashing Israel.
Umm, no. It is ban issued by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. There has been no Islamic fatwa issued that stops Jews from ascending to the Temple Mount, so you can cut your propaganda. You have a problem with, then get mad at Israel for not having a written constitution. Stopping Jews from going to the Temple Mount is a violation of:
Protection of Holy Places Law

Who enforces both the ban and that law? The Israeli government.

I've answered your question numerous times. You are just too blind to care to see the answer.
 
I agree and think that is very accurate assessment but to be fair, this issue is not just seen only within Arabs but Muslims in general - the inability to acknowledge faults and question in a similar way the West does. Which probably explains the lack of development both socially and economically.

You practice what you preach which is why I like you. Mira has stated the same in past posts.

I admire both of you for being candid and being able to state the above. Strength comes from admitting weakness.

Israel is strange that way. It cetainly has open admission of its weaknesses to the point of nauseum if you read the press or listen to the politicians and so many interest and human rights groups but I do think in fairness it can be said Israelis have developed a similiar mentality to many peoples and its certainly not just particular to the Arab peoples and best described as resentment towards outsiders who presume to tell them how they should live and what values to have.

If I may give a constructive example may I refer to Djibouti. In that territory next door to Somalia, the U.S. Army has used a model first created by Canadian Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson which envisioned an army being a peacekeeper and social facilitator. It has worked hard with the people of Djibouti building roads, schools, community centres and engaging in what I would humbly suggest is a successful model of equal partnership in assisting a country develop as opposed to Iraq.

In Iraq the Americans came in, bombed the country back to the stone age, and then set up a system of contractual kick backs for Haliburton to rebuild the country but forbidding any Iraqis from being part of that rebuild. That to me was crazy. The best way in my humble opinion to build a democracy is to create grass roots work projects with and for the people. Why Iraqis could not be part of the rebuilding of roads, schools, buildings I do not know.

Some say well its because terrorists would blow everything up. Some would argue no the reason why terrorists exist is because the average Iraqi has no vested interest in rebuilding their country and have been forced to the sidelines and unemployment. Give them jobs and give them a direct interest in the property being built and they won't blow it up.

Certainly Israel proved that true. At one point Israel went into Gaza and funded hundreds of charities with indirect relations to Hamas when Hamas openly renounced terrorism as an option. During those days Gaza Palestinians and Israelis worked together and built community centres, schools, roads, green houses, government buildings and Gaza citizens went into Israel to work as well.

Hamas are no dummies. When they saw there was no incentive to fight Israel and that Palestinians were peacefully co-existing the first thing they did was blow up the roads, buildings, schools, green houses and threaten Palestinians with death for cooperating with Israelis in any way shape or form.

With those then deprived circumstances and Gaza citizens trapped in unemployment Hamas could then justify terrorism, blame the malaise on Israel and set of a never ending round of tit for tat.

Seems to be and it may be naive I know, but the best way to be pro-active against societies that incite terrorists is to get the people jobs-give them a reason to live-give them a vested interest in direct control over their futures-I may argue with Palestinians on many subjects but I totally must agree with them when they say if you take a people and they have no jobs or control over their future-they turn to anger and terrorism. It doesn't justify it but it explains the conditions that create it.

Democracy is an intangible concept until its put into practice-in practice democracy is as simple as setting up a water well or water piple line, or building roads-boring, infrastructure issues. Water, roads, homes, food production, those boring basics build the foundation of democracy.

Sending in as the U.S. did Haliburton and its never ending mercenary security force to keep the country hostage and under seige will not build democracy just resentment.

The U.S. Army warned not to send in corupt contractors and mercenary security forces and establish a foreign elite non military presence in Iraq that did not actively involve Iraqis and Bush Jr. and Chaney and Rumsfeld arrogantly ignored their advise and the successful model of cooperation they achieved in
Djibouti.

Now I fear the lesson may not be learned in Afghanistan. With the corupt elite Afghani government o Karzi, one wonders, what are the NATO forces there for? Are they really building a democracy that will translate in day to day life or are they merely protecting the interest of corupt drug lords?

On the West Bank is democracy a tangible concept that could arise? Has there been sufficient cultural precedent in the Arab world for a truly democratic government of the people? I don't think any has ever existed. Even in Israel, its prickly democracy has been corupted by bribery probably sunconsciously tolerated mor readily from the influx of Russians, Arab Jews, or Jews from countries that did not havenon corupt democratic traditions and so are more likely to toelrate coruption and non tolerant political engagement.

The old Labour Zionist movement and idealism of Western Europe first enunciated in Israel long since passed and appears forgotten as we now see Israel has moved from a n agragrian cooperatvie model of economy to a military industrial complex with its own unique democratic defficiencies as every nation has.

No one is perfect that is for sure but it doesn't mean we can't push to try reform and change things and try find models of cooperation and political cooperation that allow free speech and healthy difference of opinion without the need to resort to violence. It just may be far more of an obstacle in the Middle East and maybe unrealistic.

Lebanon had it not been for Syria's military intervention and repeated assassinations of its leaders, despite its horrible civil war was evolving into a very real and dynamic democracy. Whether it ever can again get back to democracy with Hezbollah so powerful and a nation to itself within the nation remains to be seen.

Certainly one can't anticipate democratic regimes in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Yemen , the Gulf States or Saudi Arabia. In fact its doubtful any Arab League State would embrace Western style democracy. The deeply entrenched tradition is for one party rule propped by the military.

Lebanon shows the most promise for democracy provided it can find a way to deal with Hezbollah who seem to get more powerful as each day passes and is headed for a show down over tribunal findings over the assassination of past Lebanese elected leaders and Hezbollah's role in their murders.
 
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And then what happened? Jordan gave up all claims to the West Bank/East Jerusalem to the PLO, as Egypt did the same with Gaza.

But no point in telling the whole story, right?

well then finish. Jordan only renounced claiming the West Bank as part of Jordan when it realized that would mean the majority of Jordan would be Palestinians whose allegiance was not to the King of Jordan but Arafat. Do continue how Jordan expelled Arafat after the Black Sabbath uprising and turned on Palestinians expelling thousands and imprisoning thousands and scrapped the right of Palestinians to come to Jordan and gain automatic Jordanian citizenship and began to omit references that called Jordan a Palestinian state.

Hey I did not create the government emblems and stamps depicting Jordan as a Palestinian state. I am not the one who unilaterally seized over 73% of Palestine and declared it a jew free TransJordan Palestinian state. King Abdullah and the British did. Go talk to them and finish their story.

Lol. Let's not get too selective shall we. You and I both know when Arafat decided to revise his books and script to suddenly call for a Palestinian state. We both know the PLO started off ridiculing Arabs who referred to themselves as Palestinians as did the Arab League of nations.
 
You practice what you preach which is why I like you. Mira has stated the same in past posts.

I admire both of you for being candid and being able to state the above. Strength comes from admitting weakness.

Israel is strange that way. It cetainly has open admission of its weaknesses to the point of nauseum if you read the press or listen to the politicians and so many interest and human rights groups but I do think in fairness it can be said Israelis have developed a similiar mentality to many peoples and its certainly not just particular to the Arab peoples and best described as resentment towards outsiders who presume to tell them how they should live and what values to have.


This is quite a coincidence because at the moment I'm working on the subject of Christians in the Arab world and because I'm fluent in Arabic I'm charged by the magazine that I work for to scan the Arab press (which I have been doing anyway for as long as I can remember)

What you've said is true for a certain Arab press but you'd be surprised to see the diversity in the Arab media.

Yes there are some countries such as Tunisia (and others) where they jail journalists for having pronounced a few words against the government or against Islam but on the other hand there are lots of open debates going on.

Only last night I watched a long programme on the Morrocan Medi tv entitled "Islam and the West". It included documentaries and debates. I was happy to observe how openly they criticised Islam totay and called for reform, how accurately they described the Islamic conquest with it's positive and negative aspects, how they blamed the Ottoman Empire for being the instigator of the current mess in the Midle East.

The debates were open, blamed the behaviour of Muslims in Europe and held them mostly responsible for the rising Islamophobia. They debated about the role of women and criticised the injustice against them etc... etc...

I really wish some of you here could read or understand Arabic in order to be able to follow the Arab press. You'd be pleasantly surprised.

late to work... must run !

ps: you'd be surprised to see how many women's conferences are taking place in the Arab world to increase the already existing numbers of woman entrepreneurs and politicians ....
 
Why do you even bother writing such crap? Don't you realize people might read it?

Are you saying Iraq was not bombed? Are you saying its entire infrastructure wasn't eradicated? Hello. Are you trying to suggest its entire electric and sewage systems were not blown to smithereens?

Get off it. Don't even attempt to suggest I am anti-American for saying that. Anyone who reads my posts knows I thought Hussein was an evil man responsible for a genocide and should have been removed. However the criticism I repeat is exactly the criticism the US Armed Forces levelled at Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Chaney.

The decision to bomb Iraq as extensively as it was and then shut Iraqis out of the rebuilding and leave them without electricity, a water system, buildings, schools, shelter was the decision of Chaney and Rumsfeld not the United States Armed Forces. The US Armed Forces set out a very controlled plan to remove Hussein and did not at any time support a lengthy ground presence or protracted air war. That was the 100% creation of Bush, Chaney and Rumsfeld who chose to ignore their military experts.

The US Armed Forces can not speak out against its politicians so I do. They take a lot of heat for political decisions they had no control over. I happen to have and continue to support the men and women in the US Armed Forces and I do not criticize them-I criticize the politicians who use them inappropriately.

If you do not think Iraq was reduced to the stone age then go to your research and see what was left after the bombings and what state people were left in. Go find out.

No you can't bomb people repeatedly and do no harm.

Go look at the amount of money awarded in contracts to Haliburton and its subsidiaries and go tell the ratio of private soldiers to US Armed Forces soldiers in Iraq and explain to me why the US Armed Forces was placed in an inferior position to these mercanary security forces.

Why is it good enough to pay a private mercenary the millions they did but have the soldiers who are paid butkus in all the high risk jobs?

Crap. Crap is pretending Iraq was not left without an infrastructure or that Haliburton was given exclusive contracts to rebuild it excluding the very people of the nation that was blown up.

That is what is crap. That is what is a crock...using the US Army as pawns for Haliburton.

It was a good thing to remove Hussein. It was a crock to ignore the US Armed Forces and misuse their soldiers and services.

The fact is Bush, Chaney and Runsfeld showed open contempt for their own armed forces right down to sending in private contracted CIA personnel to violate international laws and the US COnstitution in front of soldiers and their officers trying to uphold the US constitution and military law.

The US military command was deliberately ignored and given the finger by these contracted employees who operated outside the very laws these soldiers took an oath to uphold and protect.

Yah you bet I have a problem with that. Yah I have a problem with the US Armed Forces taking crap because of the actions of a handful of politicians who ignored military law and what they were sworn to do and flaunted their disrespect in their face.

Chaney and Rumsfeld were nothing but carpet baggers and Bush a stooge. I will take the side of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on this one any day and no they were not disloyal to criticize what Bush-Chaney and Rumsfeld did. They warned these 3 idiots, and then were ignored and left to carry out their bidding and they did it because they had no choice but it was not the way the US Armed Forces would have done it had they been allowed to properly.
 
Are you saying Iraq was not bombed?

You said "In Iraq the Americans came in, bombed the country back to the stone age".

This is crap. Whether you believe it to be true or not, it's still crap.

And in your obvious confusion you're asking me a question about what I said, despite it being only one line.
 
You said "In Iraq the Americans came in, bombed the country back to the stone age".

This is crap. Whether you believe it to be true or not, it's still crap.

And in your obvious confusion you're asking me a question about what I said, despite it being only one line.

So then clarify my confusion. Are you saying Iraq was not bombed to the extent its water and electricity infrasctruture ceased to exist?

Please help me. I am confused. Is the followng a lie? Did CBS lie to me?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/22/iraq/main545267.shtml

Are you syaing there was no Shock and Awe campaign?

On a more serious note please don't assume I am anti-American or anti or pro anything. The military views I hold are coventional and contend that conventional armed forces are not intended to serve as ground police forces or long term presence on the ground to control the day to day lives of a country's citizens.

I come from the school of thought that believes terrorism should be fought by small, extremely mobile units of about 20 that get in and out and operate with speed and mobility and engage in precision pin point targetting.

I am not a believer in creating huge networks of logistics or in carpet bombing.

I believe carpet bombings or intense bombings serve only to incite terrorism not contain it.

I believe the matter is a moot point in Afghanistan were intense bombing is pointless. In Iraq I think in hindsight everyone agrees it would have been better not to have run such an intense ground war but focus on strategic locations once Hussein was taken out. Its one thing to take out communication centres or strategic locations needed to paralyze your opposition military force, its another to take out installations that only negatively impact on civilians.

The military school of thought I follow is based on Israeli, U.S. and British strategies and handbooks. I think it is fair to say the bombing strategy was in fact george Bush Sr.'s influence and in-put on his son's decisions and Bush Sr. Chaney and Rumsfeld ran the war and shut out the upper echelons of the US Armed Forces in favour of their troika and civilian hired and contracted mercenaries.

I do not believe in private wars as were conducted in Iraq where more private soldiers exist on the ground than military. I don't support it because these private soldiers are not accountable to anyone and in the case of Iraq, ran amuck endangering the lives of US ground forces with their idiotic stunts and attacks.

It was the US Armed forces who bore the brunt of sniper fire and civilian lash back for these mercenaries.
 
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So then clarify my confusion. Are you saying Iraq was not bombed to the extent its water and electricity infrasctruture ceased to exist?

If you read the link you submitted you'll find that there were areas in Baghdad that were bombed, with the intentions of being as precise as possible. The Americans did not "bomb Iraq back to the stone age" That is not only hyperbole, it is harmful hyperbole.
Please help me. I am confused. Is the followng a lie? Did CBS lie to me?


'Shock And Awe' Throttles Iraq - CBS News


No, it seems you just didn't read it.
Are you syaing there was no Shock and Awe campaign?

Again, you can read what I wrote and nowhere did I mention it one way or the other. It is only one line and its meaning should be quite clear. Why are you asking me what I'm saying?
On a more serious note please don't assume I am anti-American or anti or pro anything. The military views I hold are coventional and contend that conventional armed forces are not intended to serve as ground police forces or long term presence on the ground to control the day to day lives of a country's citizens.

So, in the case of Iraq, you feel that the Coalition forces should have taken Hussein out and then left. And you feel that way abut all countries, such as Korea, post war Germany, etc.? In fact they are often there to protect the citizens, as in the case of Iraq, or to maintain some border control, as in the case of Korea. The military does far more than just fight wars.

I come from the school of thought that believes terrorism should be fought by small, extremely mobile units of about 20 that get in and out and operate with speed and mobility and engage in precision pin point targetting.

In fact that's being done, as well as attacking their financing, using bribes and payoffs, etc. As George Bush said early on in the WOT, there will be a lot going on behind the scenes that the public may never hear about..
I am not a believer in creating huge networks of logistics or in carpet bombing.

Sometimes it's necessary.


I believe the matter is a moot point in Afghanistan were intense bombing is pointless.

Perhaps those who are there are better placed to make that sort of decision.

In Iraq I think in hindsight everyone agrees it would have been better not to have run such an intense ground war but focus on strategic locations once Hussein was taken out. Its one thing to take out communication centres or strategic locations needed to paralyze your opposition military force, its another to take out installations that only negatively impact on civilians.

War is going to 'negatively impact' civilians, no matter what. And in the case of Iraq, and of course Islamic terrorists in general, no one can say for certain who the civilians are.

The military school of thought I follow is based on Israeli, U.S. and British strategies and handbooks. I think it is fair to say the bombing strategy was in fact george Bush Sr.'s influence and in-put on his son's decisions and Bush Sr. Chaney and Rumsfeld ran the war and shut out the upper echelons of the US Armed Forces in favour of their troika and civilian hired and contracted mercenaries.

Maybe. I really don't know, although I'm aware of the theory. I personally don't think that Bush Sr. had the balls.
 
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