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Jerusalem must be divided

Well, one side of the argument is that the visit did contribute in raising tensions :shrug:

sure. And one side of the argument about how paedophilia is bad is that some people like it.

Just because something is "one side" does not make it remotely right.

Tensions increased because the Palestinians were looking for a pre-text to raise tensions. We should not be living in fear that anything we may do will "inflame muslim sensitivities", like Islam is the religious equivalent of a bratty teenaged girl, throwing a hissy fit if she is looked at the wrong way or people do not say nice enough things about her hair.

What tunnel?

Western Wall Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kotel tunnel incident, 1996

incitement:
Al Aksa Tunnel Riots of 1996

same crap, different pre-text, with a more limited political agenda.

.... o_O
I have no idea what you are talking about here, it seems you have just gone off on one. The ban imposed is done largely by the Muslim Governments who refuse to allow flights/access for Muslims to go to Israel.

well, when you say, "many times Israel prevents them from visiting as well not to mention Muslims worldwide are banned from going to Israel to visit Jerusalem", t seems pretty obvious that you are saying Israel prevents them from coming. If that was not your intention, that would make sense, as it was clearly wrong.
 
No, I said I think.
I didn't say it will happen.

It doesn't make any dfference. I wasn't talking about what will happen, i was discussing what you "think" miight happen. And it was your "thinking" I was commenting on.

"Muslims have a Mosque on a site which is important to all three branches".y.

So what? IIt might be important to others as well. Being a Muslim doesn't hold any special privlges in a civilized first world society
Some Christians want the Mosque destroyed so Jews can build their Temple which apparently will beckon Jesus return quicker. In Judaism, the Mosque would need to be destroyed for the rebuilding so they can fulfil their religious obligations.

And perhaps there is a justifiable reason for this. I hope you're not trying to make the argument that Muslims are more rational than Jews or Christians, or that they have greater rights.
The one time there was a fire in Al Asqa it happened because a Christian wished to destroy the Mosque so Jesus could return and in doing so destroyed priceless artefacts. You are so right, I am just making all this stuff up and it is in my head.

It's always best to supply some documented evidence of your claims. The credibility of Muslims does not rank very high on the nternational register, largely due to Al-taqiyya perhaps.

Holy ****, what threats against Catholics have I issued??

None as far as I know. I think it best that you use the quote system in order that you comment on real things said.
 
No one is disagreeing. I think Jews have as much right to visit as Muslims and Christians.
It is only the ongoing political issues which doesn't .... help matters. Look what happened when Ariel Sharon visited Haram al-Sharif :shrug:

Right. More Muslim rioting, throwing rocks, garbage cans, etc. Such is there international image. And it seems that's the image they want.
 
Well, one side of the argument is that the visit did contribute in raising tensions.

Well it doesn't seem to take much to get Muslims tensions raised. A cartoon will inspire murder and international mayhem. Such is Islam today. And yes, i know. Not all Muslims rioted, murdered, or committed international mayhem.

The ban imposed is done largely by the Muslim Governments who refuse to allow flights/access for Muslims to go to Israel.

And that is accepted as normal. Incredible!
 
And that is accepted as normal. Incredible!

Well it's nice you acknowledge not all Muslims rioted. If all billion of us did, there would have been alot more damage than a few burned flags.

It is a side effect of Muslim countries policy to Israel.
You can't take a direct flight to a country your country does not recognise, now can you? No recognition means no economic or diplomatic links to even arrange for flights.
Besides, majority of Muslim countries want the tourism that would come with visiting Jerusalem (on par most likely with the billions SA tourism brings) to go to Palestinians :shrug:
 
So what? IIt might be important to others as well. Being a Muslim doesn't hold any special privlges in a civilized first world society

And where have I stated Muslims hold special privileges? :rolleyes:
And perhaps there is a justifiable reason for this. I hope you're not trying to make the argument that Muslims are more rational than Jews or Christians, or that they have greater rights.

Muslims can be as rational as Jews and Christians. I don't care, I just expect Al Asqa protected.
It's always best to supply some documented evidence of your claims. The credibility of Muslims does not rank very high on the nternational register, largely due to Al-taqiyya perhaps.

:lol:
You don't know about the Al Asqa arson attack of 1969 by Michael Dennis Rohan?

http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/al-aqsa.htm
I can find thousands more on google if that link isn't sufficient :shrug:
 
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Well it's nice you acknowledge not all Muslims rioted. If all billion of us did, there would have been alot more damage than a few burned flags.

Yes, I'm a firm believer in the "not all Muslims are rioters" idea.

It is a side effect of Muslim countries policy to Israel.

And what good is that intended to do?
You can't take a direct flight to a country your country does not recognise, now can you?

As far as I know I can visit any country that will have me, though of course there are countries which I'd avoid for my own safety. Muslim countries would be chief among them.
No recognition means no economic or diplomatic links to even arrange for flights.

Not a very progressive attitude. This does not create an atmosphere for mutual understanding. I see similar attitudes, though not near as severe, where I'm living at the moment.

Besides, majority of Muslim countries want the tourism that would come with visiting Jerusalem (on par most likely with the billions SA tourism brings) to go to Palestinians

The contemporary image of most Muslim countries is not one that would promote much tourism, despite their very rich history in many areas, and a style of architecture which I find personally very appealing.
 
Except Christians have destroyed more religious and culutural symbols than all the other religions combined.

You of course have a reference for the above sweeping allegation.

Can't wait.

You will also explain how it is germaine to the discussion as to dividing Jerusalem.

I believe your post is not only irrelevant to the thread but simply designed to inflamme.

Come on you made a sweeping negative allegation with no reference.

You might also want to research how when Jerusalem was under the control of Jordan and Muslims, it desecrated Jewish sites and this is a deep memory that fuels part of the reason Israelis are very reluctant to discuss allowing Jewish sites coming under international or Muslim control.

Its easy for many of you to discuss what Palestinians want, what should be done, etc., this is the talk of people who have never been to Jerusalem and understand its physical size, and the impossibility of in many of its part being able to divide it with a border.

Its one thing to sit in an arm chair and talk of drawing a dotted line down it, its another to try put that into practice.

I wrote a previous extensive thread on the physical problems of division. I will not repeat it again suffice to say for those of you who think its possible to divide Jerusalem like a cookie you will have to do better then that and start by understanding the exact manner in which the populations and neighbourhoods are set up and why that would not be possible with out large population shifts on both sides.

As for comments like Lailas as to East Jerusalem, they are no different and no less intransigent then the ones I hear from extremists on the other side.

Its easy to start a debate by demanding something and stating an intrenchable position of demand. We hear that a lot. All it means to me is the person pronouncing it is emotional and attaches their emotions to the subject matter.

The problem when discussing Jerusalem is it often illicits and solicits emotional, fist clenching responses.
 
I agree with you Laila that Sharon's visit was inflammatory. Certainly it was. But prior to that there were many inflammatory actions done by Jordanians and Palestinians. A lot of rhetoric and intense emotional displays have been expressed by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Israelis, citizens of other nations, etc. It is the nature of Jerusalem. It brings out the worst emotions in people.

The fact is most of us end up expressing emotional bias in our discourse on it and yes Laila I criticize myself for the exact reason I did you in the previous post.

Here is what I would like to say. In an ideal world, no one's religion is better then another. In Jerusalem all three mono-theistic religions should have equal access to their sites which of course overlap.

On one level, the religious councils of the Christians, Jews and Muslims have cooperated and got along relatively well considering the plethora of religious historic issues, but the practical reality is there are terrorists, extremists, politicians, fundamentalists, of all three faiths and many nations, who have agendas that will fuel the conflict for Jerusalem.

The practical reality is as well, there has never been a city where an international border would seperate people by tens of metres which the division of Jerusalem would have to do.

The fact is the Muslims built their third holiest shrine smack dab on the holiest Jewish shrine. That is not an easily resolveable conflict. Neither is the fact that most of Jerusalem is under the legal title of individual Christian churches of many denominations which the state of Israel recognizes and pays rent to, but the Palestinian Authority has stated it will not recognize.
 
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And where have I stated Muslims hold special privileges?

I never said you said it. I was making an observation.


Muslims can be as rational as Jews and Christians.

I'll remain unconvinced, unless the "can be" part is serving as an out.


You don't know about the Al Asqa arson attack of 1969 by Michael Dennis Rohan?

No, i seem to have missed that. But Muslims still carry a grudge because of that one man do they? It figures, I suppose.
 
I agree with you Laila that Sharon's visit was inflammatory. Certainly it was. But prior to that there were many inflammatory actions done by Jordanians and Palestinians. A lot of rhetoric and intense emotional displays have been expressed by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Israelis, citizens of other nations, etc. It is the nature of Jerusalem. It brings out the worst emotions in people.

The fact is most of us end up expressing emotional bias in our discourse on it and yes Laila I criticize myself for the exact reason I did you in the previous post.

Here is what I would like to say. In an ideal world, no one's religion is better then another. In Jerusalem all three mono-theistic religions should have equal access to their sites which of course overlap.

On one level, the religious councils of the Christians, Jews and Muslims have cooperated and got along relatively well considering the plethora of religious historic issues, but the practical reality is there are terrorists, extremists, politicians, fundamentalists, of all three faiths and many nations, who have agendas that will fuel the conflict for Jerusalem.

The practical reality is as well, there has never been a city where an international border would seperate people by tens of metres which the division of Jerusalem would have to do.

The fact is the Muslims built their third holiest shrine smack dab on the holiest Jewish shrine. That is not an easily resolveable conflict. Neither is the fact that most of Jerusalem is under the legal title of individual Christian churches of many denominations which the state of Israel recognizes and pays rent to, but the Palestinian Authority has stated it will not recognize.

It's only "inflammatory" if you're trained and predisposed to such ridiculous behavior and your parents did a lousy job. It is not for civilized and intelligent people.
 
I agree with you Laila that Sharon's visit was inflammatory. Certainly it was.

I think the better question to ask isn't whether or not it was inflamatory, but WHY the presense of a Jew visiting an ancient Jewish religious site was inflamatory in the first place.
 
I agree with you Laila that Sharon's visit was inflammatory. Certainly it was. But prior to that there were many inflammatory actions done by Jordanians and Palestinians. A lot of rhetoric and intense emotional displays have been expressed by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Israelis, citizens of other nations, etc. It is the nature of Jerusalem. It brings out the worst emotions in people.

The fact is most of us end up expressing emotional bias in our discourse on it and yes Laila I criticize myself for the exact reason I did you in the previous post.

Here is what I would like to say. In an ideal world, no one's religion is better then another. In Jerusalem all three mono-theistic religions should have equal access to their sites which of course overlap.

On one level, the religious councils of the Christians, Jews and Muslims have cooperated and got along relatively well considering the plethora of religious historic issues, but the practical reality is there are terrorists, extremists, politicians, fundamentalists, of all three faiths and many nations, who have agendas that will fuel the conflict for Jerusalem.

The practical reality is as well, there has never been a city where an international border would seperate people by tens of metres which the division of Jerusalem would have to do.

The fact is the Muslims built their third holiest shrine smack dab on the holiest Jewish shrine. That is not an easily resolveable conflict. Neither is the fact that most of Jerusalem is under the legal title of individual Christian churches of many denominations which the state of Israel recognizes and pays rent to, but the Palestinian Authority has stated it will not recognize.

Ah crap, you have gone all sane on me. :)

You are right, there was a certain emotional attachment to Jerusalem in my posts. I think that same attachment would be the same for any religious person who views Jerusalem as sacred.

I am not above bias in regards to this issue, I am probably more than others likely to fall into that trap but I hope I haven't changed so much over my years on the forum to not recognise when I am being unfair.

The issue of Jerusalem sovereignty is, in my experience dependent on the Muslims background. My observation from being in contact with Arabs in particular is that Jerusalem importance has increased over the last few decades - coinciding naturally from when Israel regained it back and any talk of handing it all over to Israel as a capital would be seen to many Arabs as a defeat. The importance of Jerusalem has been hyped up in some regards, when Israel did not control it. Palestinians and Jordan were left to their own devices in regards to the Muslim sites. I think it is fair to acknowledge that Jerusalem has fared and perhaps flourished under Israel's control. There are still many problems that remain

But the issue I think for many Arabs and Palestinians is that ... fear that Israel is trying to remove their claim to Jerusalem. This view has only increased by the fact Israel has such a strong hand which can help explain the over reaction by Muslims worldwide whenever Israel does anything near Jerusalem. Recall the excavation works, something I have no issue with generally speaking but was seen by Palestinians as a attempt to destabilise the foundations of Al Asqa. The uncertainty and I suppose powerless position of Arabs could explain the lack of willingness to negotiate

There is, although many Muslims will refuse to acknowledge historically a sense of domination. Arabs have been too used to controlling Jerusalem and being in power and I don't think have come to terms with the change. Perhaps partly due to it's history, Christians also took Jerusalem from Muslim control for a century before it was returned.
A contributor is naturally the lack of recognition of Israel is a underlying factor and is usually ignored as a cause. Muslim countries are in denial phase over the fact Israel is there to stay. Muslims also refuse to recognise the 'Jewish' State of Israel for a similar reason. That fear that in doing so, they have in effect destroyed their own claim to Jerusalem and will be forced to accept the final acts of European colonialism of Arab land.

I suppose all of that is just so you can better understand one Muslims point of view, I do not speak for all Muslims nor would I say my observations are set in stone.
Should ideally Jerusalem be divided, no. But what other option apart from splitting it, is there? The only other option is for it to be under International law with a body of all 3 faiths control it. Equal number of seats. But for that to happen both Muslims and Jews need to come to a realistic position and maybe let go a bit of history.
 
It's only "inflammatory" if you're trained and predisposed to such ridiculous behavior and your parents did a lousy job. It is not for civilized and intelligent people.

That is just a stupid assumption. :roll:
 
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I think the better question to ask isn't whether or not it was inflamatory, but WHY the presense of a Jew visiting an ancient Jewish religious site was inflamatory in the first place.

I don't think it was the visit of a Jew but a visit of him
I recall a part of his speech included something along the lines of TM is in "our" hands and will remain in our hands. That is the way to lessen fears of a take over :roll:

One of the reasons for the visit was to reassert Jewish sovereignty over the site. Sure he wanted to aww and ahh over the site but it was a provocation and it was done knowing what sort of reaction it would set off.

I doubt Palestinians would have reacted as fiercely if it wasn't such a controversial person who visited.
 
I don't think it was the visit of a Jew but a visit of him
I recall a part of his speech included something along the lines of TM is in "our" hands and will remain in our hands. That is the way to lessen fears of a take over :roll:

One of the reasons for the visit was to reassert Jewish sovereignty over the site. Sure he wanted to aww and ahh over the site but it was a provocation and it was done knowing what sort of reaction it would set off.

I doubt Palestinians would have reacted as fiercely if it wasn't such a controversial person who visited.

Or if there wasn't a purposeful effort by their leadership to incite violence and use this as a pre-text to launch their pre-planed terrorist war against Israel's civilian population...
 
Or if there wasn't a purposeful effort by their leadership to incite violence and use this as a pre-text to launch their pre-planed terrorist war against Israel's civilian population...

That too ... the visit was just another reason
 
While christians have obviously destroyed lots and lots of religious symbols, I don't think you can make this sort of asserttion, which is debatable, without any support.

I also think restricting your review period to, say, the purposeful destruction of religious symbols over the past 50 years, there would be no contest.

And the Christians would not be the winners.
The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki destroyed thousands of ancient statues and culutural symbols in a matter of seconds. How many synagogues do you think Hitler destroyed in all the countries Nazi Germany occupied? The majority of the modern wars have been instigated and started by Christians. You are either blind to realize the amount of destruction Christendom as committed, or too angry with some Muslims to not believe it.
 
Splitting up Jerusalem would be chaos. It's best to give it all to Israel. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism. Much of their holy sites are under Islamic control. Historically Jerusalem is Israel's capitol. It should remain completely and solely under Israeli control and not divided. I must disagree with the UN if they feel that it should be partitioned and divided.

Why would it be chaos? The city was split over 30 years ago with minimal "chaos", but that was because a war had just ended.

All of Jerusalem is occupied by Israel. Israel should withdraw completely from Jerusalem and let it turn into an internationally administered city. If they do not want to do that, then they must relinquish all control over East Jerusalem.
 
The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki destroyed thousands of ancient statues and culutural symbols in a matter of seconds. How many synagogues do you think Hitler destroyed in all the countries Nazi Germany occupied? The majority of the modern wars have been instigated and started by Christians. You are either blind to realize the amount of destruction Christendom as committed, or too angry with some Muslims to not believe it.

Or I distinguish between people who do things who are christian but not motivated by christianity, vs what Muslims do specifically motivated by Islam.

You know, actually looking at the substantive motivation for why they enagge in the conduct that they do, rather than just using an irrelevant factor (like, e.g., eye colour) as an explanatory factor and leveraging that to obfuscate an understanding of other events.

That would make sense, no?
 
As a Brit that same logic would apparently apply to me :shrug:

on the aggregate, that doesn't seem that implausible. There is a fairly large undercurrent of fundamentally discontented Muslims in Britain, no?

Those that are British and were born British but fundamentally hate what Britain is and others within that society.

Combine them with you and those like you and, yes, it may be one can say that British Muslims half hate themselves....

foolish symantics, yes, but the broader point is there.
 
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