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It's not about the minimum wage it's about life.

Renae

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All this hoopla over "$15.00/hr LIVING WAGE!!!" and "Business will quit hiring!!" and "Just get more skills get paid more!!" it all misses the point. It's not about the wage. Not really.
It's about the choices made with the money you have. You can't live off 8.50 an hour? Why? 12.50 an hour? Why? What are your life choices and priorities that made such an amount "unlivable?"

Stop, before you say anything about it's not fair poor people can't... SHUT IT. That line holds no weight with me. LIFE, isn't fair, deal with it.

Now, back to my point, you can in fact survive off 8.50 an hour, 10, 12, 14 an hour. You can make this work for you. But you have to make smart choices, yes you will end up making some sacrifices but that, that is life. All this "Living wage" crap says to me really is "We shouldn't have to make smart choices, we should get what we want!" To which all those talking about the costs to businesses are making the wrong points:

"Great, you claim you need $15/hr because you just can't live off current min-wage. Is there some magical property about a few more dollars that's going to make you suddenly moneywise, sacrifice to achieve your wants and live a better life? Or will you just increase the amount of bad choices and now that you've gotten more you'll instead of making right choices just demand more and more...?"

Cause really, that's what this is about, responsibility. 15hr is a nice income, I won't lie. But is it the income that's the problem or the choices and priorities that are the true problem?
 

cpwill

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All this "Living wage" crap says to me really is "We shouldn't have to make smart choices, we should get what we want!"

Perfectly stated.
 

ttwtt78640

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It is about folks wanting to get paid (just over) twice their current hourly wage for doing the same entry level job. I would imagine that everyone wishes that they could earn twice as much for doing their same job (or work half as many hours and still get their current paycheck) but most understand that is not very likely to happen.
 

Paleocon

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What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.
 

Renae

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What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

Oh, and you want the government to provide that wage I suspect
 

azgreg

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If the min wage kept up with the CPI it would be almost $11 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 

Orly?

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I think raising the min wage to $15 hurts the people that have earned high wages..

Say dude worked his ass off for 8 years at the same place to get raises up to $15 an hour, now you increase everyone to 15 and is this guy going to get a corresponding raise to reflect the value of his work? No way.. The company is going to be too broke paying all the less valuable employees 15 to give the guy that deserves it a raise above min wage where he should be..
 

Crovax

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All this hoopla over "$15.00/hr LIVING WAGE!!!" and "Business will quit hiring!!" and "Just get more skills get paid more!!" it all misses the point. It's not about the wage. Not really.
It's about the choices made with the money you have. You can't live off 8.50 an hour? Why? 12.50 an hour? Why? What are your life choices and priorities that made such an amount "unlivable?"

Stop, before you say anything about it's not fair poor people can't... SHUT IT. That line holds no weight with me. LIFE, isn't fair, deal with it.

Now, back to my point, you can in fact survive off 8.50 an hour, 10, 12, 14 an hour. You can make this work for you. But you have to make smart choices, yes you will end up making some sacrifices but that, that is life. All this "Living wage" crap says to me really is "We shouldn't have to make smart choices, we should get what we want!" To which all those talking about the costs to businesses are making the wrong points:

"Great, you claim you need $15/hr because you just can't live off current min-wage. Is there some magical property about a few more dollars that's going to make you suddenly moneywise, sacrifice to achieve your wants and live a better life? Or will you just increase the amount of bad choices and now that you've gotten more you'll instead of making right choices just demand more and more...?"

Cause really, that's what this is about, responsibility. 15hr is a nice income, I won't lie. But is it the income that's the problem or the choices and priorities that are the true problem?

You cant live off $8.50/hr but youre not supposed to. Minimum wage jobs are for students, 2nd income earners and retirees they are not a career
 

Orly?

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You cant live off $8.50/hr but youre not supposed to. Minimum wage jobs are for students, 2nd income earners and retirees they are not a career

I know a LOT of people that live off $8-$10 an hour wages..
 

Renae

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You cant live off $8.50/hr but youre not supposed to. Minimum wage jobs are for students, 2nd income earners and retirees they are not a career

You CAN. But you have to make the right choices to do so
 

notquiteright

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Cause really, that's what this is about, responsibility. 15hr is a nice income, I won't lie. But is it the income that's the problem or the choices and priorities that are the true problem?

Soooo when exactly did you support a family on 7.25 an hour? Did you provide health insurance, vehicle and it's insurance- how about food and what sort of home could you rent.

This isn't about 15 an hour- it's about NOT 14K a year to feed, cloth, find shelter and healthcare for your family. Perhaps instead of vague 'responsibilities' hand waving you could lay out the budget you think takes care of a family these days- so much for rent, so much for food, clothing, transportation and of course the pure extravagances like birthdays and Christmas- turkey on Thanksgiving...

Then again what is your hourly wage??? :confused:

Sounds a bit like- 'let them eat cake'... :peace
 

countryboy

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Everybody realizes what this minimum wage thing is all about, right? Why do you think unions are the biggest pushers of this thing? Do they earn minimum wage? No, they don't, but many of their contracts are tied to the minimum wage. ;)
 

Aunt Spiker

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All this hoopla over "$15.00/hr LIVING WAGE!!!" and "Business will quit hiring!!" and "Just get more skills get paid more!!" it all misses the point. It's not about the wage. Not really.
It's about the choices made with the money you have. You can't live off 8.50 an hour? Why? 12.50 an hour? Why? What are your life choices and priorities that made such an amount "unlivable?"

Stop, before you say anything about it's not fair poor people can't... SHUT IT. That line holds no weight with me. LIFE, isn't fair, deal with it.

Now, back to my point, you can in fact survive off 8.50 an hour, 10, 12, 14 an hour. You can make this work for you. But you have to make smart choices, yes you will end up making some sacrifices but that, that is life. All this "Living wage" crap says to me really is "We shouldn't have to make smart choices, we should get what we want!" To which all those talking about the costs to businesses are making the wrong points:

"Great, you claim you need $15/hr because you just can't live off current min-wage. Is there some magical property about a few more dollars that's going to make you suddenly moneywise, sacrifice to achieve your wants and live a better life? Or will you just increase the amount of bad choices and now that you've gotten more you'll instead of making right choices just demand more and more...?"

Cause really, that's what this is about, responsibility. 15hr is a nice income, I won't lie. But is it the income that's the problem or the choices and priorities that are the true problem?

So you're saying: "I know 8.5/hr is ****ty money and you can barely make ends meet - but deal with it. Life sucks. You don't deserve a raise."

Well that doesn't help your argument, it hurts it. Why should people be paid so little that they qualify for welfare by working full time in positions like MANAGEMENT? Why should everyone take piss poor pay that DOESN'T cover basic expenses in most states? And by basic expenses in most states I mean HOUSING/RENT, TRANSPORTATION TO/FROM WORK, FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILY, CLOTHING, HEALTH CARE.

With a title like 'it's not about minimum wage, it's about life' I figured you'd say something supportive of a generalized wage increase.

Currently min wage in my state is $7.50 - if I was working my old job as retail management I'd be earning around $14,000 a year.
Right now - for my family of 6 - we spend $20,000 - $27,000 for the BASICS listed above. (Mortgage, Transportation costs, Food, Clothing, Healthcare)

Your argument is **** . . . and your **** point in support of **** pay is why I make more money being a freelance author where I earn royalties than I did being retail management - even though being a retail manager is more important in our society's view of the labor force.
 
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gdgyva

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What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

Really?

All men?

No matter what decisions they have made in their lives?

So if they quit school at 15, and spent the last 5 years playing video games and living off mom and dad....but now they get a girl pregnant, suddenly they are worthy of a job that pays for their family? With no skills and no education?

Choices....we make lots of them in life. Good ones and bad ones. And then we have to live with the consequences of those choices. That doesn't mean you can't improve your situation, but don't expect me as a businessman to pay for your mistakes.

I didn't make them....you did.
 

calamity

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If the min wage kept up with the CPI it would be almost $11 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

lol...then I should be getting paid $400 an hour or more.
 

Paleocon

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Oh, and you want the government to provide that wage I suspect

There's a saying about assuming.

But no, I want employees to pay their employees fitting wages.

I think raising the min wage to $15 hurts the people that have earned high wages..

Say dude worked his ass off for 8 years at the same place to get raises up to $15 an hour, now you increase everyone to 15 and is this guy going to get a corresponding raise to reflect the value of his work? No way.. The company is going to be too broke paying all the less valuable employees 15 to give the guy that deserves it a raise above min wage where he should be..

How much another man makes is materially irrelevant to whether or not your (the general your) wage is just.

Really?

All men?

No matter what decisions they have made in their lives?

So if they quit school at 15, and spent the last 5 years playing video games and living off mom and dad....but now they get a girl pregnant, suddenly they are worthy of a job that pays for their family? With no skills and no education?

Choices....we make lots of them in life. Good ones and bad ones. And then we have to live with the consequences of those choices. That doesn't mean you can't improve your situation, but don't expect me as a businessman to pay for your mistakes.

I didn't make them....you did.

I'm assuming in your hypothetical that this guy marries the girl? Otherwise he's completely aside from what I'm talking about.

In that case, yes he should be able to make enough money(from an unskilled job, say manual work) to support his family. That's not to say that his behavior was ok or anything like that, nor is it to say he should make the same as a skilled worker with a family.
 

Mason66

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What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

If that is the case, as a business owner, I would never hire a family man with kids. Period.
 

Mason66

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There's a saying about assuming.

But no, I want employees to pay their employees fitting wages.



How much another man makes is materially irrelevant to whether or not your (the general your) wage is just.



I'm assuming in your hypothetical that this guy marries the girl? Otherwise he's completely aside from what I'm talking about.

In that case, yes he should be able to make enough money(from an unskilled job, say manual work) to support his family. That's not to say that his behavior was ok or anything like that, nor is it to say he should make the same as a skilled worker with a family.

Why is the employer responsible to pay for his decisions?
 

Gonzo Rodeo

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What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

How much should single mothers make?
 

Northern Light

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It's about transferring the economic burden from the government to the private sector, and that's really all there is to it.

A single person can maybe live off $8.50/hr, but not anyone with a child. You must necessarily get government assistance in that case.

$15/hr means fewer people will be on the government docket. Think about it. A bunch of families with parents earning $8.50/hr and also on family assistance versus some people making $15/hr and not on government assistance at all, and some unemployed while on assistance.

Smaller businesses will be hit harder, but million dollar corporations? They can afford it. Most execs are making a lot of money, they can take the hit to pay the employees properly.

It's farcical that widespread downsizing will happen. Corporations still have tasks to fulfill and quotas to fill for their clients. There are so many ways that companies can trim the fat without sacrificing human resources.

That's why I believe we need to wait and see what the economic realities are. People think they know but really economics is not a hard science.
 

Paleocon

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If that is the case, as a business owner, I would never hire a family man with kids. Period.

There are numerous ways to remedy this in a practical level, but it's besides the point that in principle, an employer should pay a family wage.

Why is the employer responsible to pay for his decisions?

The employer is responsible for paying his employees enough to support their families, because they are dependent on him.

How much should single mothers make?

Ideally there shouldn't be single mothers.
 
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