It's not about the minimum wage it's about life.

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Ideally there shouldn't be single mothers.

Ideally, God never gives young fathers cancer or kills them in car accidents... but occasionally He does.

So how much should single mothers make?

 

[Paleocon]

Ideally, God never gives young fathers cancer or kills them in car accidents... but occasionally He does.

So how much should single mothers make?

Widows and orphans should be supported by their families.

 

[calamity]

Lucky for you they don't pay you what you're worth.

They most certainly would be paying me much more if all the manufacturing jobs weren't in Mexico and China or if I was willing to travel to those places on a regular basis. But, I accept that supply and demand dictates my pay scale and not my perceptions of self-worth or some peg to the CPI.

If people don't want to be paid minimum wage, they should develop skills that separate them from those competing for minimum wage jobs. Kind of logical, no?

 

[Renae]

There's a saying about assuming.

But no, I want employees to pay their employees fitting wages.

And who decides what that is? The market? The business needs? Oh, that's right Government force.

 

[Renae]

Soooo when exactly did you support a family on 7.25 an hour? Did you provide health insurance, vehicle and it's insurance- how about food and what sort of home could you rent.

This isn't about 15 an hour- it's about NOT 14K a year to feed, cloth, find shelter and healthcare for your family. Perhaps instead of vague 'responsibilities' hand waving you could lay out the budget you think takes care of a family these days- so much for rent, so much for food, clothing, transportation and of course the pure extravagances like birthdays and Christmas- turkey on Thanksgiving...

Then again what is your hourly wage???

Sounds a bit like- 'let them eat cake'... eace

Sound a bit like a your didn't read what I wrote and tossed in stupid assumptions to bolster your heart string emotion bombs.

Sorry, won't work.

First:
Why the hell are you trying to raise a family on 7.25 an hour? This goes to my point about "bad decisions". What you are really arguing is MY POINT. You want businesses to hurt their profit margins to make the mistakes of others less painful for those people.

How does that fix the problem of bad decisions that lead them where they are?

 

[Renae]

It's about transferring the economic burden from the government to the private sector, and that's really all there is to it.

A single person can maybe live off $8.50/hr, but not anyone with a child. You must necessarily get government assistance in that case.

$15/hr means fewer people will be on the government docket. Think about it. A bunch of families with parents earning $8.50/hr and also on family assistance versus some people making $15/hr and not on government assistance at all, and some unemployed while on assistance.

Smaller businesses will be hit harder, but million dollar corporations? They can afford it. Most execs are making a lot of money, they can take the hit to pay the employees properly.

It's farcical that widespread downsizing will happen. Corporations still have tasks to fulfill and quotas to fill for their clients. There are so many ways that companies can trim the fat without sacrificing human resources.

That's why I believe we need to wait and see what the economic realities are. People think they know but really economics is not a hard science.

Ahh the old "They can afford it!"

They can, they can also afford to pull chocks and move their business too.

 

[Renae]

So you're saying: "I know 8.5/hr is ****ty money and you can barely make ends meet - but deal with it. Life sucks. You don't deserve a raise."

Nope I didn't say that at all.

I said, life sucks, you can live off a lower wage and it requires making smart choices. No where did I imply that they were going to spend their lives making 8.50 an hour or whatever or that they didn't deserve the opportunity to make MORE. But you have to have a skill set/experience WORTH the higher pay. Not just higher pay because someone not paying your paycheck has lige guilt problems. That's just not economically smart.

Well that doesn't help your argument, it hurts it. Why should people be paid so little that they qualify for welfare by working full time in positions like MANAGEMENT? Why should everyone take piss poor pay that DOESN'T cover basic expenses in most states? And by basic expenses in most states I mean HOUSING/RENT, TRANSPORTATION TO/FROM WORK, FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILY, CLOTHING, HEALTH CARE.

With a title like 'it's not about minimum wage, it's about life' I figured you'd say something supportive of a generalized wage increase.

Currently min wage in my state is $7.50 - if I was working my old job as retail management I'd be earning around $14,000 a year.
Right now - for my family of 6 - we spend $20,000 - $27,000 for the BASICS listed above. (Mortgage, Transportation costs, Food, Clothing, Healthcare)

Your argument is **** . . . and your **** point in support of **** pay is why I make more money being a freelance author where I earn royalties than I did being retail management - even though being a retail manager is more important in our society's view of the labor force.

So basically you turned on the angry self righteous guilt machine and turned off your brain.

You thought I was going to go down the "Business should be forced to pay low end jobs more because "It's SO UNFAIR!!! NO ONE EVER SHOULD HAVE A SMALL WAGE!!!"

Grow up lady, this is the real world, what you want is economically unfeasible, wouldn't change anything in terms of poor decisions leading to living off $7.25 an hour trying to "raise a family". It would lower the numbers of jobs, raise the requirements to get them, increase unemployment rolls and drive businesses elsewhere.

Why the **** do you think so many jobs are outsourced? Because economics, not guilty feelings and rash government solutions, dictate the course a business takes.

 

[jonny5]

What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

A man should not have a family if he cant support it. Not sure why his choices are mine to pay for.

 

[Northern Light]

Ahh the old "They can afford it!"

They can, they can also afford to pull chocks and move their business too.

It costs more to relocate than to just increase the wages of a percentage of your employees.

Like I said it's going to affect small business more than the bigger ones.

The economic deterrent in CA is the corporate tax rate, not the minimum wage rate.

 

[Paleocon]

And who decides what that is? The market? The business needs? Oh, that's right Government force.

Yes. The government is the entity responsible for codifying obligations.

A man should not have a family if he cant support it. Not sure why his choices are mine to pay for.

If you're an employer, paying the man a decent wage is your responsibility because of his dependence on you.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Widows and orphans should be supported by their families.

Are you aware some people don't have families?

Your desired system ignores swathes of people to the exclusive benefit of married men. I bet you miss the 50s, huh? You know, when women knew better than to talk back?

 

[TaterTots]

Minimum wage is $7.25 where I live. I'm sorry to inform you, but you cannot live off those wages without assistance.

 

[notquiteright]

I think raising the min wage to $15 hurts the people that have earned high wages.. Say dude worked his ass off for 8 years at the same place to get raises up to $15 an hour, now you increase everyone to 15 and is this guy going to get a corresponding raise to reflect the value of his work? No way.. The company is going to be too broke paying all the less valuable employees 15 to give the guy that deserves it a raise above min wage where he should be..

So where is this company of yours where the rank and file get minimum wage and some guy is getting 15 an hour?

The same was said when Big Box Retail went from minimum wage (7.25) to 9.50 in Oklahoma- guess what- the stores are still open and raises are still given...

no collapse of morale, no closed Walmarts, no doom and gloom...

Life goes on.... eace

 

[Cephus]

You cant live off $8.50/hr but youre not supposed to. Minimum wage jobs are for students, 2nd income earners and retirees they are not a career

That's how it's supposed to be anyhow, but today, there are a significant number of people who are trying to live on minimum wage, who have families, who have expenses they simply haven't earned the right to have. The whole idea of living within your means is not to take on these extra responsibilities until you can afford to do so, but the left wants everyone to have everything whether they've earned it or not, because "earning" is a dirty word to liberals.

 

[Cephus]

Soooo when exactly did you support a family on 7.25 an hour? Did you provide health insurance, vehicle and it's insurance- how about food and what sort of home could you rent.

This isn't about 15 an hour- it's about NOT 14K a year to feed, cloth, find shelter and healthcare for your family. Perhaps instead of vague 'responsibilities' hand waving you could lay out the budget you think takes care of a family these days- so much for rent, so much for food, clothing, transportation and of course the pure extravagances like birthdays and Christmas- turkey on Thanksgiving...

Then again what is your hourly wage???

Sounds a bit like- 'let them eat cake'... eace

Only a complete idiot TRIES to support a family off minimum wage. Only a complete idiot HAS a family on minimum wage. You don't get a family until you've actually EARNED one.

Or doesn't that compute?

 

[Crovax]

So where is this company of yours where the rank and file get minimum wage and some guy is getting 15 an hour?

The same was said when Big Box Retail went from minimum wage (7.25) to 9.50 in Oklahoma- guess what- the stores are still open and raises are still given...

no collapse of morale, no closed Walmarts, no doom and gloom...

Life goes on.... eace

6 Oklahoma Walmarts closing by the end of January | KFOR.com

 

[notquiteright]

Only a complete idiot TRIES to support a family off minimum wage. Only a complete idiot HAS a family on minimum wage. You don't get a family until you've actually EARNED one. Or doesn't that compute?

Ahhh now we earn the right to have a family??? :roll:

Fact is many young people enter the job force in 'entry level jobs'- that a few don't isn't the issue. Some did have good jobs until the 'invisible hand' drove the economy off the cliff... so they sell their kids and start over???

Fact is if the minimum wage had been indexed to inflation we wouldn't be having this conversation- why doesn't that compute??? eace

 

[Cephus]

Ahhh now we earn the right to have a family??? :roll:

Fact is many young people enter the job force in 'entry level jobs'- that a few don't isn't the issue. Some did have good jobs until the 'invisible hand' drove the economy off the cliff... so they sell their kids and start over???

Fact is if the minimum wage had been indexed to inflation we wouldn't be having this conversation- why doesn't that compute??? eace

Yes, you do. You also have to earn the right to own a car. You also have to earn the right to live in a nice house, have a big screen TV and have diamond rings. It is only after you advance to a point where you make enough money to have these things that you actually ought to have them. Just because you want it doesn't mean you deserve it. That's why young people don't start out with families. That's why young people don't start out living on their own. That's why they have an existing support structure that is supposed to be there for them until they get on their own two feet and can strike out on their own. You work your way up to having the things that you want. You don't just get what you want and expect the world to provide for you. That's an irresponsible and immature way of looking at life.

And no, we'd probably still be having this conversation. If it had been indexed to inflation all along, it would be around $11. Nobody is asking for $11 an hour minimum wage. In fact, in California, the minimum wage is $10 right now and they just announced a $15 minimum by 2022. Nobody is impressed with what you propose.

 

[notquiteright]

6 Oklahoma Walmarts closing by the end of January | KFOR.com

Seriously??? Where does it say this is due to pay raises??? :doh

Did you READ the article- poor performing- not increased labor costs....

Burkburnett Texas lost it's Walmart years ago, long before Walmart paid more than minimum wage. poor performing store

In Oklahoma a crashing oil industry is killing our economy... but I guess any straw in a weak argument... eace

 

[notquiteright]

Yes, you do. You also have to earn the right to own a car. You also have to earn the right to live in a nice house, have a big screen TV and have diamond rings. It is only after you advance to a point where you make enough money to have these things that you actually ought to have them. Just because you want it doesn't mean you deserve it. That's why young people don't start out with families. That's why young people don't start out living on their own. That's why they have an existing support structure that is supposed to be there for them until they get on their own two feet and can strike out on their own. You work your way up to having the things that you want. You don't just get what you want and expect the world to provide for you. That's an irresponsible and immature way of looking at life. And no, we'd probably still be having this conversation. If it had been indexed to inflation all along, it would be around $11. Nobody is asking for $11 an hour minimum wage. In fact, in California, the minimum wage is $10 right now and they just announced a $15 minimum by 2022. Nobody is impressed with what you propose.

Again you like to ignore real facts and make up angry old guy excuses. many lost their good jobs in the great free market financial crash- do they sell their kids???

You ignore simple facts- already many stores around the country are ignoring 7.25 an hour to attract good workers- here in Oklahoma few places only pay 7.25. I'd say in the SIX years to 15 an hour much can happen. But even you have to admit the official 7.25 is extremely outdated.

There are military families defending our nation getting public assistance- should they remain childless- there are LEOs getting public assistance- they shouldn't get reduced price lunches or food stamps for their kids???

We are not talking about luxury items- we are talking about basic living... :doh

Big screen TV??? Diamond Rings??? you are using absurd examples....

But do remember at Christmas many stores were giving big screen TVs away for absurdly low prices- and minimum wage does quality you for a car (not a great car) but a vehicle none the less... most with warranties...

So you can save the angry old guy rant for others. the official minimum wage needs to be raised- don't worry i'm sure you earn multiples above it- and you have a nice family... eace

 

[Cephus]

Again you like to ignore real facts and make up angry old guy excuses. many lost their good jobs in the great free market financial crash- do they sell their kids???

You ignore simple facts- already many stores around the country are ignoring 7.25 an hour to attract good workers- here in Oklahoma few places only pay 7.25. I'd say in the SIX years to 15 an hour much can happen. But even you have to admit the official 7.25 is extremely outdated.

There are military families defending our nation getting public assistance- should they remain childless- there are LEOs getting public assistance- they shouldn't get reduced price lunches or food stamps for their kids???

We are not talking about luxury items- we are talking about basic living... :doh

Big screen TV??? Diamond Rings??? you are using absurd examples....

But do remember at Christmas many stores were giving big screen TVs away for absurdly low prices- and minimum wage does quality you for a car (not a great car) but a vehicle none the less... most with warranties...

So you can save the angry old guy rant for others. the official minimum wage needs to be raised- don't worry i'm sure you earn multiples above it- and you have a nice family... eace

We're not talking about people who have degrees in particle physics who did, for reasons entirely beyond their control, lost their jobs and had to start over as a greeter at Walmart. We're talking about people who have never earned more than minimum wage. Those are people who are just being irresponsible. Whether you like it or not, it is still irresponsibility.

And no, none of those stores were giving away anything. They were SELLING TVs and cars. You couldn't walk in and get one for free, you had to pay for it. And no, minimum wage doesn't "qualify" you for anything. Either you can afford to pay what is being asked for these products or you can't. And if you can't afford it, then you don't deserve it.

Welcome to reality. You ought to give it a try sometime.

 

[Mason66]

There are numerous ways to remedy this in a practical level, but it's besides the point that in principle, an employer should pay a family wage.



The employer is responsible for paying his employees enough to support their families, because they are dependent on him.



Ideally there shouldn't be single mothers.

This is not true. The employer is responsible to pay him what the job is worth and nothing more.

The employer is not going to pay one man one rate because he has one child and another man a different rate because he has three children.

Again, if things were they way you want them, the children would be starving because their fathers could never get work.

 

[notquiteright]

We're not talking about people who have degrees in particle physics who did, for reasons entirely beyond their control, lost their jobs and had to start over as a greeter at Walmart. We're talking about people who have never earned more than minimum wage. Those are people who are just being irresponsible. Whether you like it or not, it is still irresponsibility. And no, none of those stores were giving away anything. They were SELLING TVs and cars. You couldn't walk in and get one for free, you had to pay for it. And no, minimum wage doesn't "qualify" you for anything. Either you can afford to pay what is being asked for these products or you can't. And if you can't afford it, then you don't deserve it. Welcome to reality. You ought to give it a try sometime.

More absurdum- imagine that...

Not talking about particle physics but brokers, accountants, clerks, personal assistants, branch managers, stock researchers, data entry clerks, researchers from the collapsed financial world. While their VP and CEOs baled with princely sums they hit the unemployment line.

Oh you pay for everything- and at the prices they put on those TVs anyone could afford them, same with cars- prices so low, terms so easy anyone with a paycheck qualitifies...

But you deflect- fact is if the minimum wage had been indexed we wouldn't be talking about 15 an hour SIX, SIX, SIX years from now... :doh

So you target a small group and don't care thousands of others fall into that same boat... how enlightened of you... eace

 

[Greenbeard]

What we need to have is a family wage. A man should be able to make enough money to support his wife and kids without welfare and without his wife working. And married men, particularly married fathers, should get paid more than single people.

P.S. Your criticisms of the people supporting the increase, while perhaps accurate in many cases, are ad hominem fallacies.

Why not scale family size (via responsible family planning) to one's earnings instead of asking for one's earnings to be scaled to family size?

 

[Cephus]

More absurdum- imagine that...

Not talking about particle physics but brokers, accountants, clerks, personal assistants, branch managers, stock researchers, data entry clerks, researchers from the collapsed financial world. While their VP and CEOs baled with princely sums they hit the unemployment line.

Oh you pay for everything- and at the prices they put on those TVs anyone could afford them, same with cars- prices so low, terms so easy anyone with a paycheck qualitifies...

But you deflect- fact is if the minimum wage had been indexed we wouldn't be talking about 15 an hour SIX, SIX, SIX years from now... :doh

So you target a small group and don't care thousands of others fall into that same boat... how enlightened of you... eace

Then people with paychecks bought them. It wasn't because they were entitled, it was because those businesses CHOSE to do so. No one forced them to do so. While I don't know what TVs or cars you are specifically talking about, I'd wager they were discontinued models that weren't selling that retailers wanted to dump at a loss to make room for incoming stock that won't be priced that low. But again, it's their choice what they want to do. That has nothing to do with minimum wage.