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Israeli-Palestinian 2010 Peace Talks

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
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I've watched the speeches.
I must say I am very optimistic, a feeling I cannot recall in previous negotiations.
 

justabubba

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based on the preliminary comments by abbas and bibi, abbas is far outclassed going into these negotiations
 

donsutherland1

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From Haaretz:

Israeli and Palestinian leaders agreed Thursday to produce a framework for a permanent peace deal and to hold a second round of direct talks this month followed by regular meetings, a modest achievement reached amid deep skepticism about success at their first such session in two years.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will meet again on Sept. 14 and 15 in the Middle East, likely at the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik, with an eye toward forging the outline of a pact that could lead to a final agreement in a year's time.
Mitchell: Bi-weekly Netanyahu-Abbas meetings to begin this month - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
 

Andalublue

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based on the preliminary comments by abbas and bibi, abbas is far outclassed going into these negotiations
Outclassed in what respect? You mean he's not intellectually Bibi's equal? Bibi's a good media performer in English, Abbas clearly isn't as fluent, but I dare say negotiations will be conducted in Hebrew and Arabic using interpreters.

Can you explain what you mean?
 

CJ 2.0

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Outclassed in what respect? You mean he's not intellectually Bibi's equal? Bibi's a good media performer in English, Abbas clearly isn't as fluent, but I dare say negotiations will be conducted in Hebrew and Arabic using interpreters.

Can you explain what you mean?
My impression was that this was a par for the course performance by both sides. Netanyahu spent as much time talking about what his hopes were for the Palestinians as what Israel needed for itself, while Abbas' speach was the typical list of grievances and victimization.

Netanyahu came off as a top-class diplomat ready to enter into historic negotiations to end a longstanding conflict. Abbas came across as a petty little representative of a party who is more interested in its own set of grievances than in recognizing the needs of the "other" in negotiating an end of conflict.

But it was always thus.
 

Andalublue

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My impression was that this was a par for the course performance by both sides. Netanyahu spent as much time talking about what his hopes were for the Palestinians as what Israel needed for itself, while Abbas' speach was the typical list of grievances and victimization.

Netanyahu came off as a top-class diplomat ready to enter into historic negotiations to end a longstanding conflict. Abbas came across as a petty little representative of a party who is more interested in its own set of grievances than in recognizing the needs of the "other" in negotiating an end of conflict.

But it was always thus.
Clearly you are listening with somewhat less than impartial ears. President Abbas was clear in his aim of achieving peace for both sides. He said:

"Mr. Netanyahu, what happened yesterday and what is happening today is also condemned. We do not want at all that any blood be shed, one drop of blood, on the part of the -- from the Israelis or the Palestinians. We want people in the two countries to lead a normal life. We want them to live as neighbors and partners forever. Let us sign an agreement, a final agreement, for peace, and put an end to a very long period of struggle forever. And peace be upon you."

Do those sound like the words of "a petty little representative ...more interested in its own set of grievances"?
 

Apocalypse

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My impression was that this was a par for the course performance by both sides. Netanyahu spent as much time talking about what his hopes were for the Palestinians as what Israel needed for itself, while Abbas' speach was the typical list of grievances and victimization.

Netanyahu came off as a top-class diplomat ready to enter into historic negotiations to end a longstanding conflict. Abbas came across as a petty little representative of a party who is more interested in its own set of grievances than in recognizing the needs of the "other" in negotiating an end of conflict.

But it was always thus.
Yes but do understand that it is not a fair contest.
Netanyahu has a rich past in working as a diplomat, and he has spent some years living in the US.
 

CJ 2.0

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Clearly you are listening with somewhat less than impartial ears. President Abbas was clear in his aim of achieving peace for both sides. He said:

"Mr. Netanyahu, what happened yesterday and what is happening today is also condemned. We do not want at all that any blood be shed, one drop of blood, on the part of the -- from the Israelis or the Palestinians. We want people in the two countries to lead a normal life. We want them to live as neighbors and partners forever. Let us sign an agreement, a final agreement, for peace, and put an end to a very long period of struggle forever. And peace be upon you."

Do those sound like the words of "a petty little representative ...more interested in its own set of grievances"?
Yes. that was of course tacked on right at the very end in response to events just unfolded, while the core of his speach, from the begining right until this, was all about historical injustices and what they deserve and want etc.

I don't think it was a terrible speach, but I totally agree he was outclassed by Netanyahu, who is, as recognized by others, an excellent speaker.
 

CJ 2.0

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Yes but do understand that it is not a fair contest.
Netanyahu has a rich past in working as a diplomat, and he has spent some years living in the US.
of course. But I also think he was hampered by what he chose to talk about as much as style. That was a choice of his and his speachwriters, and is consistent with past choices by the Palestinians. it is always about what they want, what they deserve, injustices done to them. It is never about what they can do for others, what has been done wrong to others, what others can gain from them.

It is the outward manifestation of an internalized victim mentality, which makes it far mroe difficult to actually reach an agreement. And from this perspective, it is hughely problematic.

Netanyahu came across as someone willing to compromise, to put past grievances behind, to recognize the rights and needs and aspirations of "the other". Abbas did not. Query whetherthis reflects differences in oratory skill, or whether it represents the deep-seated reality of the situation. Past experience would indicate the latter.
 

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It is very very simple on how this will end as it always will.

Netanyahu is lieing through his teeth as he always does, and is only buy time for Hamas or other radicals on the Palestinians side to do something stupid and the he will claim it impossible to "negotiate under attack" and leave. All in the while the settlements will continue.

Now if Obama manages to keep Netanyahu at the table despite these attacks, then Netanyahu will either refuse to discuss certain subjects, which in turn will piss off the Palestinians who then will walk out and get all the blame yet again. I am guessing Netanyahu will refuse to discuss Jerusalem despite saying he would, and of course the right of return. It is usually these two that make things break down.

And on the Palestinian side, the pressure from the continued settlement work going on despite international condemnation will grow and grow until the pressure will become so great that they have no choice but to leave the negotiations and of course get blamed.

All in the while, the Israeli right wing will get its will by expanding Israel's borders via settlements and land confiscations.

It is the same old story that will continue and I am not optimistic in any way with Netanyahu on one side of the table and only half the Palestinians on the other side. Neither side is willing to do what is needed for peace, and as long as that is the fact.. then there will be no peace.
 

Apocalypse

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It is very very simple on how this will end as it always will.

Netanyahu is lieing through his teeth as he always does, and is only buy time for Hamas or other radicals on the Palestinians side to do something stupid and the he will claim it impossible to "negotiate under attack" and leave. All in the while the settlements will continue.
You're a bit too late here Pete, there were already two terror attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians, and Netanyahu, while condemning the murders, has stated that this would not prevent the peace talks from going on.
In other words, please see this as an invitation to take this propaganda elsewhere.
 
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