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Israeli TV says that up to 14 people have been killed. Israel has declined to comment. The exact location of the interception is unclear. Israel had warned the ships not to enter its territorial waters. The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to the Gaza Strip in an effort to break an Israeli blockade. Turkish TV pictures taken on board the Turkish ship leading the flotilla show Israeli soldiers fighting to control passengers.
The footage showed a number of people, apparently injured, lying on the ground. The sound of gunshots could be heard. It is not clear whether the fighting is ongoing. Al-Jazeera TV reported from the same ship that Israeli navy forces had fired and boarded the vessel, wounding the captain. The Al-Jazeera broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!".
I suggest we'll wait and see what really happened tonight.
The radio just said that the forces encountered heavy resistance, passengers attacked them with knives and threw gas and oxigen baloons on them, 4 soldiers are also wounded.
anyways a week ago Israel suggested that all of this merchendise will checked by Israel and than entered by land to the Gaza strip, this was a clear provokation with the sole intent to confront Israel and make it look bad in the media
The first question you could ask yourself is wether it was really necessary to board humanitarian ships with wheelchairs, food and a nobel peace prize winner on board.
It is true that it was a "provocation" to try and break the (illegal) blockade of Gaza, but on the other hand it was previsible that there would be resistance while boarding the ships. Thus, both parts are guilty of provocation.
But let's look at the context and the consequences:
- a blockade that is considered as illegal and illegitimate by most of the world
- these were humanitarian ships with European MEP on board
- at least 10 killeds
Even if Israel is not to be blamed for everything in this story, they made a huge public relation / diplomatic mistake. By boarding the humanitarian ships and killing some of its passengers, the commando probably did much more to hurt Israel that anything anti-Israeli could have done or expected.
WOW, Starting a DUPLICATE string to one you're particpating in, in the Breaking News section:
Of course that its bad public relations but unlike Chumsky's case, here there is a security hazzared of ships smuggling goods into Gaza with no supervision, there could be weapons on those ships, could be wanted terrorist, we can't know if we won't check.
As far as it goes for casualties, 4 soldiers hospitalized with stabing wounds, this indicates that those "Peace activists" were not so peacful, we don't go around and shoot people for fun, this is not the first time the commando takes over a ship heading for Gaza, this is the first time there are casualties on both sides. As for the goods, Israel already stated that after the ships will be unloaded and checked in Ashdod the humanitarian aid will be transfered to Gaza.
WOW, Starting a DUPLICATE string to one you're particpating in, in the Breaking News section:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rael-intercepts-gaza-flotilla-says-hamas.html
WOW, that's not right, and fragmenting discussion about this Intl PR STUNT.
And Using/Poaching the IDENTICAL Article as jujuman's OP in that string too.
Not even a new view.
Wow.. is that cheap board painting.
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Moderator's Warning: |
you can't do that in international waters, that's piracy
Bad for the soldiers, but if it was in international waters then it was self defence. And the answer was totally out of proportion (which seems quite common from the IDF), you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
And the answer was totally out of proportion (which seems quite common from the IDF), you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
You keep citing phrases like it means something.. I bet you never been to the army and have no idea what its like to be in a life and death situation. Yes, its easy to blame the evil Israel, but why don't you look in the mirror? How would you react if someone stabbed you in the stomach? would you offer him your back to stab as well? Hypocrite.
Sure you do wen they are rioting with weapons and attacking your people. Kill them dead.
The keyword on your reply is "if". We still don't have the complete picture of the location, IDF spokesman didn't have an answear for the media.
Not when they are not on your territory, and not at such an unneccessary extent.
I believed army commandos were highly trained soldiers. If they had been highly trained, they'd have retreated immediately when discovering that the situation was out of control, and they would have shot only the guy who took the IDF gun, not the 10-20 people around him who were throwing bricks.
I know what "proportionality" means.
And in a direct route to enter Israel waters. I guess the Americans fighting in Afganistan and Iraq have never attacked on "international waters".. If it wasn't a tragedy I would laugh.. Hell, lets wait they first go on shore, unload the cargo and join Hamas as new (and old) recruits before attempting anything..Furthermore it was not even legitimate at that point since they were still in international waters.
I think the BBC said it was like 40 miles off Gaza.
I know what "proportionality" means. The answer of the IDF was not proportional at all. Furthermore it was not even legitimate at that point since they were still in international waters.
They boarded the ship from a helicopter... probably rappelled down to the deck on ropes. Other than jumping overboard, where were they to retreat to?I believed army commandos were highly trained soldiers. If they had been highly trained, they'd have retreated immediately...
According to initial reports, the situation was under control (non-lethal means) until one of the activists somehow came into possession of an IDF carbine and began firing at the soldiers....when discovering that the situation was out of control...
You make an assumption here that the shooter was isolated and an easy target. Unlikely. In addition, the high concentration of metal on ships almost guarantees that bullets will ricochet all over the place. It is very possible and even likely that activists were hit by ricochet rounds fired by the shooter.... and they would have shot only the guy who took the IDF gun, not the 10-20 people around him who were throwing bricks.
I just heard a press conference on the radio. According to the navy chief the riots occured only on one ship, the 5 other ships had no violant incidents on them. He said they tried to use the crowed control equipment they had but the riot got out of hand and the activists used firearms as well as knives and clubs. Two soldiers suffer from gunshot wounds and one with serious head injury. According to him the forces on site used judgement and the results could have been alot worse if they didn't show restraints.
You should brush up on Maritime Law and immunity from boarding.And once more, if (and it is likely) it was in international waters, Israel had no right to do this.
They boarded the ship from a helicopter... probably rappelled down to the deck on ropes. Other than jumping overboard, where were they to retreat to?
It is difficult enough rappelling from a helicopter to a moving ship below. It is much more difficult reversing this process while under attack.
According to initial reports, the situation was under control (non-lethal means) until one of the activists somehow came into possession of an IDF carbine and began firing at the soldiers.
You make an assumption here that the shooter was isolated and an easy target. Unlikely. In addition, the high concentration of metal on ships almost guarantees that bullets will ricochet all over the place. It is very possible and even likely that activists were hit by ricochet rounds fired by the shooter.
You should brush up on Maritime Law and immunity from boarding.
The only ships that cannot be boarded for inspection are warships and flagged government ships.
Honestly I'm not sure about that, but if you can find the law that applies in this case I'd be glad to read it.
Until then, I merely repeat what several governments say: Russia, for example, talks about an "obvious breach of the international law", that is to say "the use of weapons against civilians", the "boarding of ships in international waters for no legal reason" and "the blockade of Gaza".
Lalibre.be - Israël: les passagers de la flottille ont "déclenché les violences"
As for Amnesty (same article) they say that "Israel pretends that the soldiers were being attacked, but it is difficult to believe that the level of violence used by the IDF was justified".
Amnesty's credibility went right out of the window right now.
I've been saying for years now that they're simply another propaganda group.
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