Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

[ido_]

Why do they allow only one quarter of what is needed then?

Do you know of a humanitarian aid that was sent to Gaza and was blocked by Israel? please give me a solid example.

 

[alexa]

Do you know of a humanitarian aid that was sent to Gaza and was blocked by Israel? please give me a solid example.

I think Bub was talking about this type of thing.

The economy of Gaza has been heavily affected by the siege. Out of some 4,000
possible items, only 63 basic food items can enter Gaza (e.g., chocolate, sugar and
coffee are not allowed). The majority of these restricted products are entering Gaza
through the tunnels. Indeed, Gaza has been transformed into a black market.
...snip

Though there are no cases of starvation, serious cases of malnutrition do exist.

This comes from the Gaza PIJ paper, pdf. if you want to do a search.

 

[Gardener]

Well do you know that according to most definitions, terrorism refers to attacks on civilians?

Now look at what happened in the international waters...a boat with civilians...19 deads...

What part of "ties to Al Qaeda" are you failing to understand here, Bub?

 

[justabubba]

What part of "ties to Al Qaeda" are you failing to understand here, Bub?

i don't understand any of it
what documentation supports your contention that this was a mission with al qaeda ties?

 

[bub]

There are nine activists dead, just from the footage of the first soldier who lands on the deck I see 5 who deserved to be shot and weren't shot. If someone shoots at you you shoot back, if 5 people hit your comrade with crawbars and metal plates you shoot them to save his life. The fact that it was in international waters doesn't make it less life threatning for the soldiers, the deaths resulted from this life threat, there were 60 seconds, a whole minute in which there was no shot fired, the activists just perfomed a lynch in those soldiers who landed with only a sidearm in their back inorder to resolve it peacefully. One of the commandos put it well "we came to talk they came for war", only after 60 seconds when the activist tried to hijack a soldier and start shooting at the soldiers they recieved a clearance to use their sidearms.

5 ships were taken with no casualties at all, no one was even slightly injured, those people left the soldiers no choise.

with this violent logic, then the guys on the ships should have shot down the helicopters, right?

 

[bub]

What part of "ties to Al Qaeda" are you failing to understand here, Bub?

Yeah, like Saddam also had ties with Al Qaeda

 

[bub]

I think Bub was talking about this type of thing.



This comes from the Gaza PIJ paper, pdf. if you want to do a search.

Here are some of the things that the IDF prevents from entering the illegally besieged Gaza:

light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner.

According to the World Health Organization, one third of children under five and women of childbearing age are anaemic.

BBC News - Guide: Gaza under blockade

It's well known that pasta and chocolate can be used to make rockets...

 

[Gardener]

Yeah, like Saddam also had ties with Al Qaeda

Saddam has nothing to do with this group.

You do not seem to care who you are supporting here.

 

[Gardener]

i don't understand any of it
?

I needed no reminder, Bubba.

 

[bub]

Saddam has nothing to do with this group.

That was my point indeed.

 

[justabubba]

I needed no reminder, Bubba.

so there were are the al qaeda ties to this activity?
or are you intentionally dodging that question:

i don't understand any of it
what documentation supports your contention that this was a mission with al qaeda ties?

 

[cpwill]

Why do they allow only one quarter of what is needed then?

you have evidence of Israel blocking 75% of humanitarian aid shipments?

 

[cpwill]

Since the Israelis are responding to actual physical attacks; I'd say this is one of the kindest embargo's in history.

...The main goods crossing into Gaza has been closed and only humanitarian aid has been allowed into the strip since then. But last week, Israel announced that it was closing all the border crossings into Gaza. Israeli officials say this was in response to the almost continuous rocket fire from the territory onto neighbouring Israeli towns and villages.

Palestinian business leaders and politicians also warn that the damage to the economy because of the embargo is now irreparable. With no raw materials getting in and no finished products getting out, Gaza's industrial sector has collapsed. Over 100,000 Palestinians have lost their jobs in the last six months, according to local unions.

Amr Hamad, the head of the Palestinian Federation of Industries in Gaza, says that even if the goods crossing opened tomorrow, most of the business would not return. "The Israeli importers have lost their trust in Gaza," he says. "I don't think they will come back to do business."

The food and beverage sector is the one industry in Gaza that has fared well because food has not been subject to the economic embargo....

 

[CrazyMcCool]

The intent of the fleet was as following

Get media attention
Cause mindless bashing of Israel
Get some stuff to the people of Gaza.

Why is the last option where it is?
Cause if they did care about the people of Gaza they would of docked at Ashdod and brought their " cargo" with them.
However they decided to go head first into a blockade. Not only that after their flagship's cargo was searched it was full of weapons..

also about the Gaza blockade, its not just done cause of the missles, i dont get how no news ever talks about Gilad shallit, cause he is a huge factor for the israeli public which is a factor here.

 

[alexa]

The intent of the fleet was as following

Get media attention
Cause mindless bashing of Israel
Get some stuff to the people of Gaza.

Why is the last option where it is?
Cause if they did care about the people of Gaza they would of docked at Ashdod and brought their " cargo" with them.
However they decided to go head first into a blockade. Not only that after their flagship's cargo was searched it was full of weapons..

also about the Gaza blockade, its not just done cause of the missles, i dont get how no news ever talks about Gilad shallit, cause he is a huge factor for the israeli public which is a factor here.

I don't think your rational is as good as you think. Some aid is good but a lot more is needed. Gaza has to be able to function again. Indeed if Gaza is left for too long I worry that everyone will need psychological help before they can get back into the world.

On every level the Gaza blockade needs to be broken and people need to be able to start living regular ordinary lives where they can have aspirations for their future and that of their children and where they can earn an honest living for themselves.

So on a rational level breaking the blockade is probably more important than one delivery, though that I am sure is really needed.

I understand the remaining ships will be able to come in through Egypt which has opened it's borders.

Can still hope some good will come of this.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

I agree the blockade is awful, ofcorse that is what a blockade is, its suppose to be like this. Sad it happned and even more sad its still on :/

I still think that even if the intent of the fleet was infact to get aid to Gaza ( which we now know is only half true) it went about doing it in the most stupid way possible.
also I read an article a few days before this fiasco, how the Gilad Shalit Family asked the activists to also give aid to Gilad Shalit who is now 4 years being held hostage, which goes against international law..

I just dont get why no one talks about Gilad :/

Either way the 5 other boats were alright I am fine with them, but the big one was obviosly for show and to cause drama/provocation. And the way world leaders are shamelessly and mindlssy condemning Israel for this is just funny...I got China condemning Israel...right after it supported NK in the sinking of the SK boat with 43 killed Rofl..
Its just plain stupid both sides, the IDF failed misrably in the handling of this. Just send in some commandos to kill the engines, and get some huge boats to tow the boat into port

 

[alexa]

I still think that even if the intent of the fleet was infact to get aid to Gaza ( which we now know is only half true) it went about doing it in the most stupid way possible.

I think they always said their intention was to bring the aid to Gaza. That is to break the blockade.

also I read an article a few days before this fiasco, how the Gilad Shalit Family asked the activists to also give aid to Gilad Shalit who is now 4 years being held hostage, which goes against international law..

Yes we (uk) had several people held hostage in the Lebanon for five years. So your article expected the boats to get to Gaza!! I think it would have been cool to ask for some good things to go to Gilad Shalit. Did they agree to do this?

I just dont get why no one talks about Gilad :/

Well for us outside Israel, he is only one man. Here in the UK it was John McCarthy's girlfriend, then ex girlfriend, who would never let anyone forget him.

Either way the 5 other boats were alright I am fine with them, but the big one was obviosly for show and to cause drama/provocation. And the way world leaders are shamelessly and mindlssy condemning Israel for this is just funny...I got China condemning Israel...right after it supported NK in the sinking of the SK boat with 43 killed Rofl..
Its just plain stupid both sides, the IDF failed misrably in the handling of this. Just send in some commandos to kill the engines, and get some huge boats to tow the boat into port

Well it was civilian ships and we do not yet know what has happened. You always need to be much more careful when you are dealing with others civilians. There is a big thread on this in the 'breaking news' section.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[ido_]

with this violent logic, then the guys on the ships should have shot down the helicopters, right?

If the helicopter was shooting at them, yes, do you know of something I don't? I never knew IAF Blackhawks have weapons

 

[ido_]

I think Bub was talking about this type of thing.



This comes from the Gaza PIJ paper, pdf. if you want to do a search.

I never knew people can't live without coffee, chocolate and sugar, I will ask again, do you have an example of a humanitarian aid that was blocked from entering Gaza?
Gaza is under a blockade, the people of Gaza shouldn't be allowed to starve and should be able to sustain life, this doesn't mean we should allow to supply them with luxuries, they are an enemy entity which continuesly fire rockets on our country ever since this entity was born and even earlier.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

I am not sure if this is allowed or not, but I got some footage of what happned.
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Intresting..
Either way the Commandos were armed with paintball guns cause apperntly they wanted to talk..in during 4 AM this is just another fail by the IDF in a long list of them over the last few years...Which saddens me cause the IDF itself is an amazing army...It just needs good leadership..


Edit Actually the supply that was actually not weapons was transported into gaza by the IDF Strange no one talks about it in the media :/

 

[CrazyMcCool]

I think they always said their intention was to bring the aid to Gaza. That is to break the blockade.



Yes we (uk) had several people held hostage in the Lebanon for five years. So your article expected the boats to get to Gaza!! I think it would have been cool to ask for some good things to go to Gilad Shalit. Did they agree to do this?



Well for us outside Israel, he is only one man. Here in the UK it was John McCarthy's girlfriend, then ex girlfriend, who would never let anyone forget him.




Well it was civilian ships and we do not yet know what has happened. You always need to be much more careful when you are dealing with others civilians. There is a big thread on this in the 'breaking news' section.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome
The activists declined the request to get humanitarian supply to gilad Shalit aswell, they asked for this to happen either by them somehow making it to Gaza or by going via Israel.
I find it hypocritical that a Humanitarian entiti would decline such a request :/
Yeah I guess he is just a man, but thats cause well the media decided so ( saddly i am a big critic of the media muahah) little do many people know that He is a huge factor in the Israeli mindset on this situation, and politicians ( even thou I can not believe we have Bibi as PM but I digress ) have to answer the call of the people, and really Gilad Shalit is one of them, cept Hamas knows that keeping him is basically holding Israel by her balls ( yes this makes little sense bare with me xD )

 

[alexa]

I never knew people can't live without coffee, chocolate and sugar, I will ask again, do you have an example of a humanitarian aid that was blocked from entering Gaza?
Gaza is under a blockade, the people of Gaza shouldn't be allowed to starve and should be able to sustain life, this doesn't mean we should allow to supply them with luxuries, they are an enemy entity which continuesly fire rockets on our country ever since this entity was born and even earlier.

Apparently 60% of the children of Gaza suffer from malnutrition and anemia. I can't remember the percentage of those with stunted growth but it is significant.

However what is equally bad is a people being basically forced to live in this way. Never able to move from a small strip of land. Never to get outside and hear other people's opinions. Never able to get any help of improving oneself unless it is through black market activities or terrorism.

What human beings do to other human beings. Israel imo is creating the very situation it says it does not want.

Jeremy Bowen was suggesting today it is to do with pride. Israel does not know how to end it without losing face.

Other people should be in charge of Gaza so that the people may have an opportunity of a healthy life and opportunities to achieve in their life.

If you think it is so cool - try it yourself.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

Apparently 60% of the children of Gaza suffer from malnutrition and anemia. I can't remember the percentage of those with stunted growth but it is significant.

However what is equally bad is a people being basically forced to live in this way. Never able to move from a small strip of land. Never to get outside and hear other people's opinions. Never able to get any help of improving oneself unless it is through black market activities or terrorism.

What human beings do to other human beings. Israel imo is creating the very situation it says it does not want.

Jeremy Bowen was suggesting today it is to do with pride. Israel does not know how to end it without losing face.

Other people should be in charge of Gaza so that the people may have an opportunity of a healthy life and opportunities to achieve in their life.

If you think it is so cool - try it yourself.

Thats what happens when there is a " democratic" election and a known terrorist organazation gets " elected" and then throws opposing parties off roofs/shoots them/exiles them..

I like how people sometimes say Gaza is a democratic nation! It was...not anymore before the blockade it wasnt anymore, the blockade came after the rockets, which is something a lot of news sources forget/dont want to say..

And yes Israel cant end this without a losing face, that is unless they get Gilad back inexchange for it, that way Israeli's would see it as a "win"
Thats the problem in being the big force, its either you do something and you come out as a winner or you do something Still win, but come out as a loser.

 

[Captain America]

Once again, I am rather certain that Israel will be exhonerated or justified. And even IF they are found to be at fault absolutely NOTHING will happen to them because the US will unconditionally support them (and, as a result, remain a demon in the eyes of the rest of the world.) We are just as guilty as Israel has ever been simply by supporting their attrocities time after time. The arrogance is appaling. But I digress. Just ANOTHER day in paradise.

 

[alexa]

Thats what happens when there is a " democratic" election and a known terrorist organazation gets " elected" and then throws opposing parties off roofs/shoots them/exiles them..

I think the election was democratic. It was unfortunate Arafat dying at that time. This is all so complicated so many things involved but a quick look at wiki suggests there was someone else involved in all this and it was not all Hamas to blame.

Fatah

I also think it was wrong to break off talks, aid and so on just because of who was elected. We either believe in democracy or not. If Hamas is all there is, then it is best to speak to them.

I like how people sometimes say Gaza is a democratic nation! It was...not anymore before the blockade it wasnt anymore, the blockade came after the rockets, which is something a lot of news sources forget/dont want to say..

well I would need to get into a bit more study but I think they did not really stand a chance. If the wall was needed for peace, there was no peace. I think that the foundation for peace should have been sorted out before Gaza was left. Indeed now people can look back at what happened I have heard them say it was a mistake to begin with Gaza. The whole of the Palestinian State should have been brought together at the same time. It is also a great pity that the West Bank and Gaza cannot be in regular contact. Again, exchanging of views and so on. Friends are people you meet!

And yes Israel cant end this without a losing face, that is unless they get Gilad back inexchange for it, that way Israeli's would see it as a "win"
Thats the problem in being the big force, its either you do something and you come out as a winner or you do something Still win, but come out as a loser.

Yes, both sides want to be the winner. I think that is also part of the problem in bringing aid. If they let the aid, which was inspected in Turkey in, Hamas has one. With what has happened Hamas has definitely one. It even has access to Egypt.

I am sure that Gilad will be released when the other situations are ready. My wish is that Israel does not demand too much land and indeed resources like water, that a continuous Palestine is formed as by Oslo and that people start to get on with building their world rather than all that is going on at the moment.

You are right that Israel is much the stronger and really holds all the strings. That is why I think it does her no harm to have a bit of pressure.

I do think it is possible, but yes, I will look more at each side needing to save face.