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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

Degreez

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BBC News - Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

Israeli TV says that up to 14 people have been killed. Israel has declined to comment. The exact location of the interception is unclear. Israel had warned the ships not to enter its territorial waters. The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to the Gaza Strip in an effort to break an Israeli blockade. Turkish TV pictures taken on board the Turkish ship leading the flotilla show Israeli soldiers fighting to control passengers.

The footage showed a number of people, apparently injured, lying on the ground. The sound of gunshots could be heard. It is not clear whether the fighting is ongoing. Al-Jazeera TV reported from the same ship that Israeli navy forces had fired and boarded the vessel, wounding the captain. The Al-Jazeera broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!".
Wow. Attacking ships that are bringing humanitarian aid to a place that is in a humanitarian crisis. Fourteen people dead from trying to help. I wonder what the provocation was... They were probably holding a blanket.
 

ido_

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I suggest we'll wait and see what really happened tonight.
The radio just said that the forces encountered heavy resistance, passengers attacked them with knives and threw gas and oxigen baloons on them, 4 soldiers are also wounded.

anyways a week ago Israel suggested that all of this merchendise will checked by Israel and than entered by land to the Gaza strip, this was a clear provokation with the sole intent to confront Israel and make it look bad in the media
 

bub

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I suggest we'll wait and see what really happened tonight.
The radio just said that the forces encountered heavy resistance, passengers attacked them with knives and threw gas and oxigen baloons on them, 4 soldiers are also wounded.

anyways a week ago Israel suggested that all of this merchendise will checked by Israel and than entered by land to the Gaza strip, this was a clear provokation with the sole intent to confront Israel and make it look bad in the media
The first question you could ask yourself is wether it was really necessary to board humanitarian ships with wheelchairs, food and a nobel peace prize winner on board.

It is true that it was a "provocation" to try and break the (illegal) blockade of Gaza, but on the other hand it was previsible that there would be resistance while boarding the ships. Thus, both parts are guilty of provocation.

But let's look at the context and the consequences:
- a blockade that is considered as illegal and illegitimate by most of the world
- these were humanitarian ships with European MEP on board
- at least 10 killeds

Even if Israel is not to be blamed for everything in this story, they made a huge public relation / diplomatic mistake. By boarding the humanitarian ships and killing some of its passengers, the commando probably did much more to hurt Israel that anything anti-Israeli could have done or expected.
 

ido_

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The first question you could ask yourself is wether it was really necessary to board humanitarian ships with wheelchairs, food and a nobel peace prize winner on board.

It is true that it was a "provocation" to try and break the (illegal) blockade of Gaza, but on the other hand it was previsible that there would be resistance while boarding the ships. Thus, both parts are guilty of provocation.

But let's look at the context and the consequences:
- a blockade that is considered as illegal and illegitimate by most of the world
- these were humanitarian ships with European MEP on board
- at least 10 killeds

Even if Israel is not to be blamed for everything in this story, they made a huge public relation / diplomatic mistake. By boarding the humanitarian ships and killing some of its passengers, the commando probably did much more to hurt Israel that anything anti-Israeli could have done or expected.
Of course that its bad public relations but unlike Chumsky's case, here there is a security hazzared of ships smuggling goods into Gaza with no supervision, there could be weapons on those ships, could be wanted terrorist, we can't know if we won't check.

As far as it goes for casualties, 4 soldiers hospitalized with stabing wounds, this indicates that those "Peace activists" were not so peacful, we don't go around and shoot people for fun, this is not the first time the commando takes over a ship heading for Gaza, this is the first time there are casualties on both sides. As for the goods, Israel already stated that after the ships will be unloaded and checked in Ashdod the humanitarian aid will be transfered to Gaza.
 

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bub

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Of course that its bad public relations but unlike Chumsky's case, here there is a security hazzared of ships smuggling goods into Gaza with no supervision, there could be weapons on those ships, could be wanted terrorist, we can't know if we won't check.
you can't do that in international waters, that's piracy

As far as it goes for casualties, 4 soldiers hospitalized with stabing wounds, this indicates that those "Peace activists" were not so peacful, we don't go around and shoot people for fun, this is not the first time the commando takes over a ship heading for Gaza, this is the first time there are casualties on both sides. As for the goods, Israel already stated that after the ships will be unloaded and checked in Ashdod the humanitarian aid will be transfered to Gaza.
Bad for the soldiers, but if it was in international waters then it was self defence. And the answer was totally out of proportion (which seems quite common from the IDF), you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
 

CaptainCourtesy

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WOW, Starting a DUPLICATE string to one you're particpating in, in the Breaking News section:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rael-intercepts-gaza-flotilla-says-hamas.html

WOW, that's not right, and fragmenting discussion about this Intl PR STUNT.

And Using/Poaching the IDENTICAL Article as jujuman's OP in that string too.
Not even a new view.
Wow.. is that cheap board painting.

-
Moderator's Warning:
You have a problem with this, report it. Do this again, publicly, and you will find yourself with consequences.
 

ido_

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you can't do that in international waters, that's piracy
Bad for the soldiers, but if it was in international waters then it was self defence. And the answer was totally out of proportion (which seems quite common from the IDF), you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
The keyword on your reply is "if". We still don't have the complete picture of the location, IDF spokesman didn't have an answear for the media.
If it was in Israeli waters the answear wasn't out of porportion, if you jump on an armed soldier you will be shot. IDF spokesman says few activists jumped on a soldier and grabed his weapon, I won't be suppriesed if many casualties were cause by the activists themselves who opened fire on the soldiers on a crowded vessal. Still its all speculations and we'll have to wait and see when the picutre gets clearer, I can say that I saw many Sikorsky helicopters on their way to Shiba hospital.

Right now Ynet says 15 activiests are dead and 6 soldiers are injured, two of them are in critical condition: Gaza flotilla ships transported to Ashdod - Israel News, Ynetnews
 

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you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
You keep citing phrases like it means something.. I bet you never been to the army and have no idea what its like to be in a life and death situation. Yes, its easy to blame the evil Israel, but why don't you look in the mirror? How would you react if someone stabbed you in the stomach? would you offer him your back to stab as well? Hypocrite.
 

reefedjib

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And the answer was totally out of proportion (which seems quite common from the IDF), you don't kill 10 or 20 people because someone gets stabbed.
Sure you do wen they are rioting with weapons and attacking your people. Kill them dead.
 

bub

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You keep citing phrases like it means something.. I bet you never been to the army and have no idea what its like to be in a life and death situation. Yes, its easy to blame the evil Israel, but why don't you look in the mirror? How would you react if someone stabbed you in the stomach? would you offer him your back to stab as well? Hypocrite.
I know what "proportionality" means. The answer of the IDF was not proportional at all. Furthermore it was not even legitimate at that point since they were still in international waters.
 

bub

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Sure you do wen they are rioting with weapons and attacking your people. Kill them dead.
Not when they are not on your territory, and not at such an unneccessary extent.

I believed army commandos were highly trained soldiers. If they had been highly trained, they'd have retreated immediately when discovering that the situation was out of control, and they would have shot only the guy who took the IDF gun, not the 10-20 people around him who were throwing bricks.
 

bub

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The keyword on your reply is "if". We still don't have the complete picture of the location, IDF spokesman didn't have an answear for the media.
I think the BBC said it was like 40 miles off Gaza.
 

reefedjib

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Not when they are not on your territory, and not at such an unneccessary extent.

I believed army commandos were highly trained soldiers. If they had been highly trained, they'd have retreated immediately when discovering that the situation was out of control, and they would have shot only the guy who took the IDF gun, not the 10-20 people around him who were throwing bricks.
Bull****. You have a group of people attacking with bricks and bats and you have people going down, you use excessive force to regain initiative and dominate the situation. They did this. Sucks to be Palestinian.
 

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I know what "proportionality" means.
That is the right word, Israel used proportional force - instead of sinking the ships completely with one or two missiles, they risked the lives of soldiers to get on board.

Furthermore it was not even legitimate at that point since they were still in international waters.
And in a direct route to enter Israel waters. I guess the Americans fighting in Afganistan and Iraq have never attacked on "international waters".. If it wasn't a tragedy I would laugh.. Hell, lets wait they first go on shore, unload the cargo and join Hamas as new (and old) recruits before attempting anything..
Besides, I have a feeling you would have the same opinion if it wasn't on international waters.
 

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I know what "proportionality" means. The answer of the IDF was not proportional at all. Furthermore it was not even legitimate at that point since they were still in international waters.
I just heard a press conference on the radio. According to the navy chief the riots occured only on one ship, the 5 other ships had no violant incidents on them. He said they tried to use the crowed control equipment they had but the riot got out of hand and the activists used firearms as well as knives and clubs. Two soldiers suffer from gunshot wounds and one with serious head injury. According to him the forces on site used judgement and the results could have been alot worse if they didn't show restraints.
 

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I believed army commandos were highly trained soldiers. If they had been highly trained, they'd have retreated immediately...
They boarded the ship from a helicopter... probably rappelled down to the deck on ropes. Other than jumping overboard, where were they to retreat to?

It is difficult enough rappelling from a helicopter to a moving ship below. It is much more difficult reversing this process while under attack.

...when discovering that the situation was out of control...
According to initial reports, the situation was under control (non-lethal means) until one of the activists somehow came into possession of an IDF carbine and began firing at the soldiers.

... and they would have shot only the guy who took the IDF gun, not the 10-20 people around him who were throwing bricks.
You make an assumption here that the shooter was isolated and an easy target. Unlikely. In addition, the high concentration of metal on ships almost guarantees that bullets will ricochet all over the place. It is very possible and even likely that activists were hit by ricochet rounds fired by the shooter.
 

bub

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I just heard a press conference on the radio. According to the navy chief the riots occured only on one ship, the 5 other ships had no violant incidents on them. He said they tried to use the crowed control equipment they had but the riot got out of hand and the activists used firearms as well as knives and clubs. Two soldiers suffer from gunshot wounds and one with serious head injury. According to him the forces on site used judgement and the results could have been alot worse if they didn't show restraints.
I don't minimize the violence used by the people on the ships. It's sad for the soldiers.

But on the other hand, it looks like NINETEEN "pro-palestinians" were KILLED and 36 others wounded.

And once more, if (and it is likely) it was in international waters, Israel had no right to do this.
 

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And once more, if (and it is likely) it was in international waters, Israel had no right to do this.
You should brush up on Maritime Law and immunity from boarding.

The only ships that cannot be boarded for inspection are warships and flagged government ships.
 

bub

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They boarded the ship from a helicopter... probably rappelled down to the deck on ropes. Other than jumping overboard, where were they to retreat to?

It is difficult enough rappelling from a helicopter to a moving ship below. It is much more difficult reversing this process while under attack.
I believed all military plans had possible "escape" ways, like a boat or something like that waiting for them.

According to initial reports, the situation was under control (non-lethal means) until one of the activists somehow came into possession of an IDF carbine and began firing at the soldiers.

You make an assumption here that the shooter was isolated and an easy target. Unlikely. In addition, the high concentration of metal on ships almost guarantees that bullets will ricochet all over the place. It is very possible and even likely that activists were hit by ricochet rounds fired by the shooter.
All these things were predictable.

It was predictable that there would be some resistance, it was predictable that there would be many people on board and it was predictable that if someone started shooting (they had expected it, otherwise they would not have boarded with guns) it would turn messy.

So it was a very dangerous operation.

Now I don't want to blame everything on Israel: even if I disagree with the blockade, I can understand the Israeli concerns about the possibility that there would be weapons on board. So I don't really blame them because they boarded it in international waters, but rather because apparently the operation was badly planned and that it turned into a bloodbath because of the lack of proportionality that is characteristic of the IDF.
 

bub

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You should brush up on Maritime Law and immunity from boarding.

The only ships that cannot be boarded for inspection are warships and flagged government ships.
Honestly I'm not sure about that, but if you can find the law that applies in this case I'd be glad to read it.

Until then, I merely repeat what several governments say: Russia, for example, talks about an "obvious breach of the international law", that is to say "the use of weapons against civilians", the "boarding of ships in international waters for no legal reason" and "the blockade of Gaza".

Lalibre.be - Israël: les passagers de la flottille ont "déclenché les violences"

As for Amnesty (same article) they say that "Israel pretends that the soldiers were being attacked, but it is difficult to believe that the level of violence used by the IDF was justified".
 

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Honestly I'm not sure about that, but if you can find the law that applies in this case I'd be glad to read it.

Until then, I merely repeat what several governments say: Russia, for example, talks about an "obvious breach of the international law", that is to say "the use of weapons against civilians", the "boarding of ships in international waters for no legal reason" and "the blockade of Gaza".

Lalibre.be - Israël: les passagers de la flottille ont "déclenché les violences"

As for Amnesty (same article) they say that "Israel pretends that the soldiers were being attacked, but it is difficult to believe that the level of violence used by the IDF was justified".
Amnesty's credibility went right out of the window right now.
I've been saying for years now that they're simply another propaganda group.
The videos prove that soldiers were lynched and attacked, and soldiers were ****ing seriously wounded.
 

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Amnesty's credibility went right out of the window right now.
I've been saying for years now that they're simply another propaganda group.
Like every institution, organisation, state or country that dares suggest Israel sometimes get it wrong...

Paul
 
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