Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period.

[American]

By Gideon Levy


What will we tell the world next week, at the UN? What could we say? Whether in the General Assembly or the Security Council, we will be exposed in all our nakedness: Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period. And it doesn't have a single persuasive argument against the establishment and the international recognition of such a state.
So what will we say, that we're opposed? Four prime ministers, Benjamin Netanyahu among them, have said that they're in favor, that it must be accomplished through negotiations, so why haven't we done it yet? Is our argument that we object to it's being a unilateral measure? What's more unilateral than the settlements that we insist on continuing to build? Or perhaps we will say that the route to a Palestinian state runs through Ramallah and Jerusalem, not New York, a la the U.S. secretary of state. The State of Israel itself was created, in part, in the United Nations. Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period. - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Do you have any real proof?

 

[Baltim]

Gilad Atzmon blogs with a total contrary opinion to the one linked to in the OP

Gilad Atzmon - Writings - Gilad Atzmon: Obama, the Palestinian State & Zionist Schizophrenia
Those who monitor the Hebrew press and understand the Jewish State may be slightly puzzled to find out that while in the Hebrew press there is only just a little and insignificant attention to the current Palestinian leaders' drive for statehood, the Israeli English media outlets are saturated with news about the prospect of a pro-Palestinian resolution in the UN next week.

If you want to understand this clear discrepancy between the Jewish Hebrew press and English outlets, then here it is--we are dealing here with a clear split within the Jewish collective psyche.

I guess that some may be surprised to learn that Israel and most Israelis actually want the Palestinian initiative to go ahead and to succeed. They want a Palestinian State because this is the only solution that would save the ‘Jews only State’ from a demographic meltdown.

Recent polls in Israel prove that the majority of Israelis are very excited about the ‘Two State Solution’. Not only are the Israelis not threatened by the idea of a Palestinian State, they actually love it, for It would settle their reality within a framework of international law. Also, you may want to bear in mind that Kadima party, that won the last two elections in Israel, has been and still is, devoted to ‘disengagement’, a clear separation between the ‘Jews’ and the Palestinians by means of Israeli unilateral withdraw. In other words, a Palestinian statehood achieves the exact same goal; it removes Israelis from any responsibility to territories it once occupied and destroyed. It is obvious that some elements in Israel oppose the Palestinian UN initiative: I guess that Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is not too happy about it. West Bank settlers may also be very angry but for some reason, even they are relatively quiet these days.

And yet, the Jewish Lobby around the world totally opposes the Palestinian UN initiative: it clearly holds a very simplistic image of an expansionist Jewish State from the ‘river to the sea’. And as it seems, it is not going to give up on its dream very soon.

What we see here in practice is a clear identity crisis or even a schizophrenic counter flow of aspirations between the Israeli and the Diaspora Zionist. While the Israelis are reverting to the old Jewish Ghetto attitude, they prefer to shrink, stay together and surround themselves with vast and impenetrable concrete walls, the Diaspora Zionist Jewish narrative is confrontational, belligerent, hawkish militant and expansionist. They want it all, with the Palestinians or without them.

I'm interested to hear from our Israeli posters who they think is closer to the actuality of the ground.

 

[Gardener]

Gilad Atzmon blogs with a total contrary opinion to the one linked to in the OP



I'm interested to hear from our Israeli posters who they think is closer to the actuality of the ground.

I'm curious as to why you think your choosing one extremist left Israeli to compare to another extremist left Israeli provides any sort of choice?

What a false dichotomy you offer.

 

[Mika-El]

Not sure why Israel does not declare Gaza an independent state and then hold them accountable as any nation for the actions of it's citizens. Stop the blockade, but say if as much as one rocket is shot from your nation we will do what the US has done in Afghanistan where it still has 100K troops and has killed tens of thousands of Afghan citizens because it allowed a terrorist group to plan an attack there. The US actions have not been called excessive force by the UN so my sense is that Hamas hides behind their current status.

I think the irony of your comments will be missed by many.


Mr. Abbas is not doing anything Mr. Arafat did before him and Erdogan does now and that is to play the Gamel Abnel Nasser populist card which holds you can solidify your political reputation and power base in the Arab world by looking tough by barking at Israel and humiliating them.

The problem is the ultimatum Mr. Abbas delivers will box himself into a corner more than it will Israel in future negotiations.

All it will do is polarize. It will incite riots after he is ignored by Israel and vetoed playing out to the Palestinians he is an impotent, spent force and in so doing will play right into the agenda of the new alliance of Erdogan and Hamas and push Abbas into extinction.

After it achieves nothing but riots, people will turn to Hamas not Abbas.

Abbas can posture all he wants like Erdogan and anyone else using the anti Israel card to try bolster their political careers-but until someone disarms Hamas and disarms the terrorist groups who demand Israel's extinction, no solution wil be achieved.

Mr. Abbas can demand all he wants from Israel but he has no power base and is in no position to control and disarm Hamas or even his own Fatah Hawks and in the absence of such basic control he has been rendered a meaningless figure- a spent carcass trying to make one last noise before it expires.

 

[Gardener]

Just in case people do not know who Baltim is promoting here, Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel, but has renounced his Jewishness, and is an extreme antisemite. He calls the burning of synagogues a "rational act", he claims Jews are out to control the world, has said that "Jewish ideology is driving our planet into a catastrophe" and that Jews are set apart from humanity.

I realize the Brits who post here have been thoroughly inculcated by the radical antizionist mindset that plagues Britain, but really now -- why should we even consider the viewpoints of such a creature?

 

[Baltim]

I'm curious as to why you think your choosing one extremist left Israeli to compare to another extremist left Israeli provides any sort of choice?

What a false dichotomy you offer.

I quoted Atzmon because his opinion differs considerably from the one in the original post and wondered which, in the opinion of people actually in Israel, is closer to the truth.

Simple enough for you?

 

[Baltim]

Just in case people do not know who Baltim is promoting here, Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel, but has renounced his Jewishness, and is an extreme antisemite. He calls the burning of synagogues a "rational act", he claims Jews are out to control the world, has said that "Jewish ideology is driving our planet into a catastrophe" and that Jews are set apart from humanity.

I realize the Brits who post here have been thoroughly inculcated by the radical antizionist mindset that plagues Britain, but really now -- why should we even consider the viewpoints of such a creature?

Where do I promote Atzmon Gardener?

Please link to my promotion of him.

Please.

 

[Gardener]

I quoted Atzmon because his opinion differs considerably from the one in the original post and wondered which, in the opinion of people actually in Israel, is closer to the truth.

Simple enough for you?

They do not differ considerably at all. Gideon Levy may not be QUITE as extreme an antizionist, but you have simply chosen one one extreme hater of Israel as a counter to another. If you wished to offer an actual choice, you would have offered something by somebody who does not wish to see Israel destroyed.

 

[Gardener]

Where do I promote Atzmon Gardener?

Please link to my promotion of him.

Please.

In posting #27 in this thread. You provided his words a platform here. If you did not wish to promote him, you would not have provided such a platform.

 

[Baltim]

In posting #27 in this thread. You provided his words a platform here. If you did not wish to promote him, you would not have provided such a platform.

It's so nice you seem to understand my motivations better than I do. I explained why I posted his article, accept it or don't, I don't particularly care.

Now could we please discuss the two articles and which one is closer to the truth instead of diverting the thread away and onto the motivations of the posters?

As we're reminded often enough by the mods, discuss the post, not the poster.

 

[Baltim]

They do not differ considerably at all. Gideon Levy may not be QUITE as extreme an antizionist, but you have simply chosen one one extreme hater of Israel as a counter to another. If you wished to offer an actual choice, you would have offered something by somebody who does not wish to see Israel destroyed.

So in response to an article claiming Israelis don't want a Palestinian stare I post one which takes the opposite view point and I'm advocating Israel's destruction?

I thought it would add an interesting element to the thread which would further discussion.

And just FTR, I am a Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist, and as a Jewish state at that.

I just happen to think the Palestinians deserve a state too.

 

[Gardener]

So in response to an article claiming Israelis don't want a Palestinian stare I post one which takes the opposite view point and I'm advocating Israel's destruction?

I thought it would add an interesting element to the thread which would further discussion.

And just FTR, I am a Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist, and as a Jewish state at that.

I just happen to think the Palestinians deserve a state too.

I never said you advocated Israel's destruction. You just seem to have no clue as to the political territory inhabited by Gideon Levy and Gilad Atzmon, both of whom are extreme leftist antizionists and extremely hostile to Israel. With Atzmon in particular, your asking us to consider his views strikes me much in the same way as it would if a person quoted an article by David Duke in regards to race relations here in the states as some sort of counter point to, say, an article by Pat Buchanan.

Perhaps you are just so far left that you cannot even see where the middle is, but all you have done here is to choose somebody even further out there to counter an extremist rather than choose any sort of sensible person to consider.

 

[gunner]

I realize the Brits who post here have been thoroughly inculcated by the radical antizionist mindset that plagues Britain, but really now -- why should we even consider the viewpoints of such a creature?

No matter the copious amount of times you repeat this prejudicial line, it will not give it any more verisimilitude.

Paul

 

[gunner]

So in response to an article claiming Israelis don't want a Palestinian stare I post one which takes the opposite view point and I'm advocating Israel's destruction?

I thought it would add an interesting element to the thread which would further discussion.

And just FTR, I am a Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist, and as a Jewish state at that.

I just happen to think the Palestinians deserve a state too.

That is probably the most frustrating issue for nearly all British, and many Europeans that have, and do frequent this board. That by simply exploring both sides of the conflict, and dare offer criticism of Israeli policy, by default you are 'labelled' antisemitism or anti-Zionist or extreme left wing etc!! And they cant see how prejudice that is in their relentless pursuit of making it so.

Paul

 

[liblady]

By Gideon Levy


What will we tell the world next week, at the UN? What could we say? Whether in the General Assembly or the Security Council, we will be exposed in all our nakedness: Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period. And it doesn't have a single persuasive argument against the establishment and the international recognition of such a state.
So what will we say, that we're opposed? Four prime ministers, Benjamin Netanyahu among them, have said that they're in favor, that it must be accomplished through negotiations, so why haven't we done it yet? Is our argument that we object to it's being a unilateral measure? What's more unilateral than the settlements that we insist on continuing to build? Or perhaps we will say that the route to a Palestinian state runs through Ramallah and Jerusalem, not New York, a la the U.S. secretary of state. The State of Israel itself was created, in part, in the United Nations. Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period. - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

not a single honest argument? how about that terrorists don't deserve statehood?

 

[gunner]

not a single honest argument? how about that terrorists don't deserve statehood?

Levy may well agree,

"In 2010, Levy described Hamas as a fundamentalist organization and holds it responsible for the Qassam rockets fired at Israeli cities: "Hamas is to be blamed for launching the Qassams. This is unbearable. No sovereign state would have tolerated it. Israel had the right to react."[17] He is against boycotting Israel: "I am an Israeli who does not boycott Israel so I cannot call on others to do so."

Gideon Levy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul

 

[mbig]

Just in case people do not know who Baltim is promoting here, Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel, but has renounced his Jewishness, and is an extreme antisemite. He calls the burning of synagogues a "rational act", he claims Jews are out to control the world, has said that "Jewish ideology is driving our planet into a catastrophe" and that Jews are set apart from humanity.

I realize the Brits who post here have been thoroughly inculcated by the radical antizionist mindset that plagues Britain, but really now -- why should we even consider the viewpoints of such a creature?

And I don't think people other than you, the Isaelis, and the OP, understand who Gideon Levy is.
He, along with fellow anti-Israel leftist Amira Hass, are extremely anti-Israel.
There's really No equivalent in the American press.
Close, but still not as Treasonous, would be say Chimpsky and Ward Churchill.

Those two especially are quoted by Israeli haters of all sorts.
ie, the Lebanese site Bint Jbeil gives Levy his own pages with links to his articles.
Gideon Levy - Selected Articles from Ha'aretz

Gideon Levy
Selected Articles from Ha'aretz

The following articles written by Gideon Levy, an honest and sincere Israeli journalist, in the Ha'aretz, one of the most circulated Israeli newspaper, expose a little of Israel's Racist and Criminal face by telling some of the Palestinians sufferings under the Zionists occupation.
Throughout these articles, you will find Gruesome accounts of the Israeli "Justice", "Equality" and great "Democracy" (an ethnic democracy, a Jew-docracy, as called by Knesset member, Ahmad Tibi)!!!

Levy Articles also found on DavidDuke.com and in posts on Stormfront

 

[Gardener]

And I don't think people other than you, the Isaelis, and the OP, understand who Gideon Levy is.

It is difficult to know whether people are completely ignorant or just playing dumb as part of their disingenuous nature and pursuit of their agenda, but if they can't be at all honest as to the political territory staked out by Levy and Atzmon, they simply have no business being on a discussion board.

The problem here is that when people view statements about Jews controlling the world as being perfectly normal and reasonable things to say, and don't bat so much as an eyelash at supporting the burning of synagogues , then any insincere protest they might offer should be taken with a grain of salt. Levy and and Atzmon are extremists -- obviously so -- and all the dishonest blather from those with an agenda will not make them otherwise.

 

[Gardener]

That is probably the most frustrating issue for nearly all British, and many Europeans that have, and do frequent this board. That by simply exploring both sides of the conflict, and dare offer criticism of Israeli policy, by default you are 'labelled' antisemitism or anti-Zionist or extreme left wing etc!! And they cant see how prejudice that is in their relentless pursuit of making it so.

Paul

Or you could try being honest for a change.

 

[gunner]

Or you could try being honest for a change.

Please point out one of my dishonest posts?

Paul

 

[Gardener]

Please point out one of my dishonest posts?

Paul

Well, there is this one for starters.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...alestinian-state-period-4.html#post1059807374

 

[X Factor]

Does "Palestine" as represented by Hamas recognize Israel? Will they ever? Where's THAT article?

 

[gunner]

Well, there is this one for starters.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...alestinian-state-period-4.html#post1059807374

If that's the 'cream of the crop' then i know i have nothing to worry about.

Paul

 

[Demon of Light]

Or perhaps we will say that the route to a Palestinian state runs through Ramallah and Jerusalem, not New York, a la the U.S. secretary of state. The State of Israel itself was created, in part, in the United Nations.

I must say, this part of the article made me appreciate the irony of Israel objecting to a U.N.-imposed independence measure as being "unilateral" when its very existence is based on taking unilateral action that it justified by pointing to a U.N. measure on independence.

You're mistaken and misleading, the people you're referring to are the Philistines who are mentioned in the bible, those are a people who came from the Greek islands and occupied the Gaza Strip area. They; 1) Aren't native to the land and 2) Have never occupied the West Bank area.
So besides the fact that there is no connection between the two, even if there was a connection it would simply mean that they are native to the Greek Isles and have no connection to the land. The Philistines were foreigners.

Father Abraham, who had many sons many sons had Father Abraham, journeyed to what is now Israel from Mesopotamia as the story goes. Even if one does not accept the literal narrative, it is obviously meant to mirror a historical origin story for the Jewish people. So, the Jewish people in that respect have only a slightly better claim to the land than those descednants of the Phillistines. The descendants of the Canaanites who, by all accounts, were there before Jews or Phillistines would obviously have the best claim. Of course, the truth is the dudes from each group were knocking up bitches from every other group with such free abandon that sorting out who has a more rightful claim to the territory today based on lineage alone is a fool's errand.

The problem here is that when people view statements about Jews controlling the world as being perfectly normal and reasonable things to say

While it is an exaggeration the statement isn't that far off base. A substantial portion of the world's ruling elites are Jewish after all.

and don't bat so much as an eyelash at supporting the burning of synagogues

Saying an action is rational is not the same as supporting it.

 

[Baltim]

not a single honest argument? how about that terrorists don't deserve statehood?

What, all 1.5 million people in Gaza are terrorists? Well strike me pink!

Also, be careful using this argument. Remember just how many Israeli Prime Ministers have been former terrorists.