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Is this what Mormons really believe?

tacomancer

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Catz Part Deux

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Yes, but they don't talk about it much. Bruce R. McConkie is the best source on this one.
 

marduc

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Well it takes some basic tenants and starts with some basic truths regarding their beliefs (and yes some are quite far fetched) and then takes a few liberties expanding and filling in gaps and inaccurately [prtrays a few things, with a bit of hyperbole thrown in to boot .

Mormonism is quite a huge pill to swallow without the distortions in the video, this video basically goes the extra mile to propagandize the religion and to portray Mormonism as being extra super special ridiculous instead of just ridiculous.


edit: ohh who am i kidding they are extra special super ridiculous.
 
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digsbe

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This stuff is crazier than scientology. I never knew this about the Mormon church. How do they label themselves as Christians?
 

marduc

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This stuff is crazier than scientology. I never knew this about the Mormon church. How do they label themselves as Christians?
Because their beliefs regarding Christ is central to their religion, and the story of Christ and his life is rooted in the contents of the New Testament and are essentially the same as any other Christians views, specifically that he is and was the savior and he died for our sins. They just add a little extra fluff contained in the Book of Mormon to the mix, such as the chapter to the story of Christ between his death and his resurrection where he made an appearance in the America's
 
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digsbe

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Because their beliefs regarding Christ is central to their religion, and the story of Christ and his life is rooted in the contents of the New Testament and are essentially the same as any other Christians views, specifically that he is and was the savior and he died for our sins. They just add a little extra fluff contained in the Book of Mormon to the mix, such as the chapter to the story of Christ between his death and his resurrection where he made an appearance in the America's
They don't believe in the virgin birth, they don't believe that Jesus was God the father incarnate, they believe he was a brother (and equal) to satan. They believe that Joseph Smith was greater than Jesus, they believe that Jesus had wives and children and that Joseph Smith was his descendant. They downplay the Holiness of God by stating that he was just a random love child of another god somewhere out there. They believe that we are eternally married even though Jesus specifically states in the Bible that in heaven there is no marriage (and no sex, stating that our bodies will be spirit and "genderless" like the angels). It doesn't represent Christianity at all and is contrary to the Bible assuming the things in the video are true.
 

marduc

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They don't believe in the virgin birth, they don't believe that Jesus was God the father incarnate, they believe he was a brother (and equal) to satan. They believe that Joseph Smith was greater than Jesus, they believe that Jesus had wives and children and that Joseph Smith was his descendant. They downplay the Holiness of God by stating that he was just a random love child of another god somewhere out there. They believe that we are eternally married even though Jesus specifically states in the Bible that in heaven there is no marriage (and no sex, stating that our bodies will be spirit and "genderless" like the angels). It doesn't represent Christianity at all and is contrary to the Bible assuming the things in the video are true.
They do believe in a virgin birth, they think the father and the son are 2 separate entities, and that satan is a fallen angel while christ remained loyal to his father, they believe we are all children of God and in no way downplay his holiness, if anything they elevate it, they in no way shape or form believe Joseph Smith was greater than (or equal to) Jesus (this was one of the blatant hyperbolic misrepresentations that really jumped out from this video), to my recollection, they do not believe Jesus had earthly wives or children, the "god was a random lovechild" is more hyperbole from the video, they believe that in salvation and through the sanctity and bonds of marriage (and potentially of a family) can last for eternity (if you followed the teachings of christ while you are here on earth), yes.. consistent with what you say is in the bible in the afterlife they believe we are all spirit beings, and the afterlife is without sex, there is no need for it, salvation is glorious enough in and of itself, besides sex is a bodily function, just as you say is mentioned in the bible. It is very much based on the bible and biblical teachings, it just adds a few extra layers above and beyond the typical biblical teachings.

The video is propaganda and you are taking it at face value.

As I said the video takes basic tenants and expands on them and misrepresents things quite a bit, it was propaganda based on kernels of truth, and goes out of its way to portray them as cultist and not based on the bible at all, when in fact their religion is first and foremost rooted in biblical teachings and study, and their interpretations and beliefs regarding the bible are essentially the same as any other christian religion. Tales of the flood in Sunday School, Garden of Gethsemane, sermon on the mount, Daniel and the Lion, all the normal christian teachings and tenants are there.. and consistent with the bible, they do not reinterpret it, they just expand on the tale with another volume.

I can't believe I am defending Mormons, but I was raised in a Mormon family (before I got old enough to reject it - ~13 years old I started seriously doubting- I was steeped in their doctrine) and am familiar with what they believe - as crazy and implausible as I consider Mormon beliefs to be - their biblical teachings are in line with other christian faiths, and the portrayal of their beliefs that go above and beyond biblical teachings are presented in this video dishonestly, and it appears deliberately to make them look absolutely bat **** crazy and not in line with Christianity, when this is not really the case (the not in line with Christianity part), they are most certainly Christian.. very much so.
 
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Your Star

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Yeah, Mormonism is pretty crazy.
 

Panache

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I fail to see how it is any crazier than any other religion.
 

marduc

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I was going off from recollection from my above post, mostly based upon what I was taught as a child some 30 years ago, so do not take my above post as absolute gospel truth (pun intended), one thing that bugged me after posting was the whole spirit versus body after resurrection part, my mind was sending up major red flags on that, I had recalled wrong, Mormons believe that at the time of resurrection our spirit is reunited with our bodies, as was Christ at the time of his resurrection (as he demonstrated by inviting the apostles to examine the wounds in his hands).. I don't know how I forgot that, other than losing my faith young and never looking back once.

Digsbe:
Perhaps if and when Catz ventures back into this thread she can expound on or correct what you and I posted versus what she knows of Mormon doctrine. I know she knows a thing or two of the topic from her past as well, and that it was more recent and more in depth than my exposure, although as a child I was thoroughly immersed (another pun - although not everyone will get it)

Can you source the verse that says we are to be spirit post resurrection?
 
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marduc

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I fail to see how it is any crazier than any other religion.
They add extra layers of crazy above and beyond the mainstay crazy, most of this crazy is presumably the visions (deranged?) and translations (writings?) or probably more accurately: the connivings of one Joseph Smith (future church leaders added and adapted more but the core crazy is all his)
 
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Orion

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Mormons are insane. Sorry, I won't be changing my mind on that anytime soon.
 

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This stuff is crazier than scientology. I never knew this about the Mormon church. How do they label themselves as Christians?
Now you have an idea about how non-believers view your religion.
1) Rituals of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of christ via blessed water/wine and crackers/bread
2) Having 1-sided mental telepathy sessions with a supreme being.
3) sprinkling or dipping yourself in "blessed" water in order to remove "sins".
4) Worshipping a symbol (cross).
5) Cutting off your foreskin.
6) Blaming some natural or man made events on demons or angels.
7) Belief in absolute, god-given morality and laws.
8) Rejecting the findings and observations of reality when in contradiction to holy-book tales.
9) That credulity to certain stories and claims grants preferred seating in an afterlife. And that rejection of those claims results in torment and suffering in an afterlife.
10) That a certain man's death somehow enables a god to absolve others of an otherwise unfortunate fate.

The epiphany of discovering the insanity and craziness of one's own beliefs is both awe inspiring and terrifying.
 

hallam

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Now you have an idea about how non-believers view your religion.
1) Rituals of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of christ via blessed water/wine and crackers/bread
2) Having 1-sided mental telepathy sessions with a supreme being.
3) sprinkling or dipping yourself in "blessed" water in order to remove "sins".
4) Worshipping a symbol (cross).
5) Cutting off your foreskin.
6) Blaming some natural or man made events on demons or angels.
7) Belief in absolute, god-given morality and laws.
8) Rejecting the findings and observations of reality when in contradiction to holy-book tales.
9) That credulity to certain stories and claims grants preferred seating in an afterlife. And that rejection of those claims results in torment and suffering in an afterlife.
10) That a certain man's death somehow enables a god to absolve others of an otherwise unfortunate fate.

The epiphany of discovering the insanity and craziness of one's own beliefs is both awe inspiring and terrifying.
You can very much caricature Christianity in this way. The things that move this religion from insanity to stability is that #2 is actually a two way conversation, #4 is not worship of a cross but worship of the supreme being, and that #7 along with the emotional peace within the religion allows us to be better. Mind you this may be true for other religions.

Now, how much of this thread and the video are just a caricatures of Mormonism as well.
 
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Panache

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#2 is actually a two way conversation,
I have seen a lot of Christians pray. This is how it goes: "Dear Jesus, please give me this that and this other thing, and help my friend so and so with whats going on in her life, blah blah blah blah blah Amen."

From start to finish, they talk the entire time. How can Jesus ever get a word in edgewise?

Even if Jesus is talking to them, it doesn't really count as a two way conversation if they aren't listening.
 

UtahBill

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If you want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon missionary.. they are trained in those things, having had every possible question there is thrown at them.
Likewise, if you want to know what ANY religion believes, ask THEM.

You won't get an accurate description about any religion, sometimes not even their own, by asking most evangelicals or fundamentists...

AND, I once had 2 catholic friends almost get into a fight over what catholics believe....it was a bit funny...
 
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tacomancer

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If you want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon missionary.. they are trained in those things, having had every possible question there is thrown at them.
Likewise, if you want to know what ANY religion believes, ask THEM.

You won't get an accurate description about any religion, sometimes not even their own, by asking most evangelicals or fundamentists...

AND, I once had 2 catholic friends almost get into a fight over what catholics believe....it was a bit funny...
Thats a good point, but I don't know any. Online or offline. The last guy I knew that was mormon was over 10 years ago.
 

Panache

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If you want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon missionary.. they are trained in those things, having had every possible question there is thrown at them.
I think that is way off the mark. As far as I can tell, the average age of a Mormon missionary is 19, which is ironic considering that they call themselves Elders.

Every time they come a knockin' on my door, I invite them in to have a rousing theological discussion. I give them an opportunity to clarify some apparent contradictions in the book of Mormon, and suddenly they have other souls to go and save. But they tell me if I want to learn more, I can start attending Mormon church.
 

hallam

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I have seen a lot of Christians pray. This is how it goes: "Dear Jesus, please give me this that and this other thing, and help my friend so and so with whats going on in her life, blah blah blah blah blah Amen."

From start to finish, they talk the entire time. How can Jesus ever get a word in edgewise?

Even if Jesus is talking to them, it doesn't really count as a two way conversation if they aren't listening.
Your personal experience not withstanding, this is not how all praying goes. A Prayer of petition is just one type of five main types of prayer. Prayers of thanksgiving and supplication are far more common too. This is still just a caricature of what is actually happening. How do you know Jesus doesn't get a word in or that the people praying aren't listening. You don't because you are not apart of these conversations. You are guessing.

As a person who prays I would say no matter how much I talk, God always expresses more.
 

Panache

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Your personal experience not withstanding, this is not how all praying goes. A Prayer of petition is just one type of five main types of prayer. Prayers of thanksgiving and supplication are far more common too. This is still just a caricature of what is actually happening. How do you know Jesus doesn't get a word in or that the people praying aren't listening. You don't because you are not apart of these conversations. You are guessing.

As a person who prays I would say no matter how much I talk, God always expresses more.
Ok, you're right, there is also "Dear Jesus, thank you for this food, blah blah blah Amen." And there is "Dear Jesus, you are so great and I am nothing without you blah blah blah Amen." And of course one of my favorites is "Dear Jesus, I have sinned (as if he didn't already know) please forgive me blah blah blah Amen." Which I think should really be classified under petition rather than expiation, since it is in fact a type of petition.

I know that Jesus doesn't get a word in edgewise because it is impolite to interrupt when someone else is talking, and Jesus, being a perfect being would be perfectly polite.

And I know that the people praying aren't listening because they are people, rather than gods, and people can't listen very well while their mouths are moving.

It doesn't matter how much God expresses if his words fall on deaf ears.
 

hallam

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Ok, you're right, there is also "Dear Jesus, thank you for this food, blah blah blah Amen." And there is "Dear Jesus, you are so great and I am nothing without you blah blah blah Amen." And of course one of my favorites is "Dear Jesus, I have sinned (as if he didn't already know) please forgive me blah blah blah Amen." Which I think should really be classified under petition rather than expiation, since it is in fact a type of petition.

I know that Jesus doesn't get a word in edgewise because it is impolite to interrupt when someone else is talking, and Jesus, being a perfect being would be perfectly polite.

And I know that the people praying aren't listening because they are people, rather than gods, and people can't listen very well while their mouths are moving.

It doesn't matter how much God expresses if his words fall on deaf ears.
This shows how very little of Christianity you know. Jesus was without sin. But he would cut you off if you were making a fool of yourself or preaching incorrectly. He did kind of scream at the money changers in the temple overturning their tables. And he did admonish his disciples when they obviously didn't understand his teachings. Jesus was silent when it was wise to be silent and non silent when it was wise to not be silent. He may cut you off you off if you are listening and/or making a fool of yourself when praying. Sometimes he may give you feelings which will completely override what you want to pray about. So this kind of goes against your reply there. Your opinion here, though okay to have, is baseless.
 
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Panache

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This shows how very little of Christianity you know. Jesus was without sin. But he would cut you off if you were making a fool of yourself or preaching incorrectly. He did kind of scream at the money changers in the temple overturning their tables. And he did admonish his disciples when they obviously didn't understand his teachings. Jesus was silent when it was wise to be silent and non silent when it was wise to not be silent. So this kind of goes against your reply there. Your opinion here, though okay to have, is baseless.
Thanks for the Bible study lesson teach. I have in fact read the Bible all the way through (unlike the majority of professed "Christians" I know) and I think you have disingenuously taken my comment out of context. People praying are not money changers making a mockery of the temple. They are people trying to engage in cordial conversation with their Savior. Show me a single verse in which Jesus cut someone off while they were in the middle of asking him a question, or thanking him, or praising him.

Aside from which if Jesus DID interrupt someone in the middle of their prayer, people would stop and listen. You would have to be an idiot of immeasurable proportion to hear the voice of God and just keep talking over it.

If Jesus were interrupting, and people were listening, one would expect prayer to sound more like this:

"Dear Jesus, please give me a pony, and Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thing which tells time, and- ... ... ... Sorry, could you say that again? I missed the first part because I was talking... ... ... Ok. I will. ... ... ... I know, I'm sorry. It won't happen again. ... ... Thank you. Amen."

For some reason, I never hear anything like this.
 

tacomancer

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Intellectual knowledge and understanding alone is not sufficient to understand Christianity. The reason is is that there is a real relationship (with two way communication) going on.
 
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Panache

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Intellectual knowledge and understanding alone is not sufficient to understand Christianity. The reason is is that there is a real relationship (with two way communication) going on.
The thing that really boggles my mind is that prayer SHOULD be one way communication, but the other way around from what appears to be the accepted practice.

Communication is, at its core, a transfer of data.

The sender has the information, the receiver needs the information, and the symbol is the means of transferring the data from the sender to the receiver.

God presumably already has all the data already, otherwise He wouldn't really be omniscient would He?

So communication with God should be a one way communication with God as the sender and the Christian as the receiver.

It is pointless for the Christian to try and transfer information from themselves to God, if God already has the information.

And yet, the only prayer I ever see is people trying to do just that.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Awe - it's cute to come into a religious thread and see a religion labeled as being 'crazy' - but to me, from the outside of any religious beliefs (especially concerning creation) all beliefs have that same level of 'I can't believe you believe that' to it.

Now you all know what it's like to be me in my family - all the time!
 
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