Is this what Mormons really believe?

[Slartibartfast]

The thing that really boggles my mind is that prayer SHOULD be one way communication, but the other way around from what appears to be the accepted practice.

Communication is, at its core, a transfer of data.

The sender has the information, the receiver needs the information, and the symbol is the means of transferring the data from the sender to the receiver.

God presumably already has all the data already, otherwise He wouldn't really be omniscient would He?

So communication with God should be a one way communication with God as the sender and the Christian as the receiver.

It is pointless for the Christian to try and transfer information from themselves to God, if God already has the information.

And yet, the only prayer I ever see is people trying to do just that.

I have always been of the opinion that prayer does far more for the believer than it does for the Deity, as the believer is the one that needs to form the necessary habits and faith to keep the relationship going.

 

[UtahBill]

Thats a good point, but I don't know any. Online or offline. The last guy I knew that was mormon was over 10 years ago.

Call the nearest LDS ward, they'll help you out....

 

[UtahBill]

I think that is way off the mark. As far as I can tell, the average age of a Mormon missionary is 19, which is ironic considering that they call themselves Elders.

Every time they come a knockin' on my door, I invite them in to have a rousing theological discussion. I give them an opportunity to clarify some apparent contradictions in the book of Mormon, and suddenly they have other souls to go and save. But they tell me if I want to learn more, I can start attending Mormon church.

Yeah, sure....
The average age is 20, since most start at age 19 and end at 21.
There are far more contradictions in the bible. But I guess you have a list of Book of Mormon contradictions? They wouldn't tell you to attend Mormon Church unless you have expressed a desire to learn, which you haven't, since all you want to do is attack their religion. The learning for potential converst begins with sitting thru the standard missionary lessons. Most people aren't that interested, and you can bet the missionaries will spend their time where success is possible, not verbally jousting with someone who thinks he know more about mormon scriptures than they do.
The learning for LDS missionaries starts early, they go thru years of preparation in church, then they go to the mission training center to learn the lessons and the answers to the objections other religions have. Nearly all my nephews on my wife's side went on missions. My side are all baptists, so I get to see both sides up close and personal.

Come back and post when you have something to say that makes sense....

 

[Panache]

Yeah, sure....
The average age is 20, since most start at age 19 and end at 21.

Well, I was pretty close.

There are far more contradictions in the bible.

I agree.

But I guess you have a list of Book of Mormon contradictions?

Yep.

They wouldn't tell you to attend Mormon Church unless you have expressed a desire to learn, which you haven't,

Firstly, by your own logic, I must have expressed a desire to learn, or they would not have told me to attend Mormon Church. And secondly. I have a very genuine desire to learn how they reconcile this:

2 Nephi 5:15
And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

with this:

2 Nephi 5:16
And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land....

Among other things.

since all you want to do is attack their religion.

How is it an attack to ask for illumination regarding scripture?

The learning for potential converst begins with sitting thru the standard missionary lessons.

And I was more than happy to hear what they had to say. They asked me if I had questions, which I did.

Most people aren't that interested,

Clearly I am not most people, as I invited them into my house rather than slamming my door on them.

and you can bet the missionaries will spend their time where success is possible, not verbally jousting with someone who thinks he know more about mormon scriptures than they do.

Oh, so Mormon's don't believe that with God all things are possible? I learn something new every day. You think I am wrong to evangelize for skepticism to people who have come to evangelize their own beliefs to me?

The learning for LDS missionaries starts early, they go thru years of preparation in church, then they go to the mission training center to learn the lessons and the answers to the objections other religions have. Nearly all my nephews on my wife's side went on missions. My side are all baptists, so I get to see both sides up close and personal.

Ok, so why wouldn't they just give me a straight answer as to whether precious ores were available in abundance or not to be found upon the land? If they learned the answers to such questions from an early age, it should have been a no-brainer for them.

Come back and post when you have something to say that makes sense....

Which part of what I said didn't make sense to you? I shall be happy to attempt to clarify.

 

[UtahBill]

Well, I was pretty close.



I agree.



Yep.



Firstly, by your own logic, I must have expressed a desire to learn, or they would not have told me to attend Mormon Church. And secondly. I have a very genuine desire to learn how they reconcile this:



with this:



Among other things.



How is it an attack to ask for illumination regarding scripture?



And I was more than happy to hear what they had to say. They asked me if I had questions, which I did.



Clearly I am not most people, as I invited them into my house rather than slamming my door on them.



Oh, so Mormon's don't believe that with God all things are possible? I learn something new every day. You think I am wrong to evangelize for skepticism to people who have come to evangelize their own beliefs to me?



Ok, so why wouldn't they just give me a straight answer as to whether precious ores were available in abundance or not to be found upon the land? If they learned the answers to such questions from an early age, it should have been a no-brainer for them.



Which part of what I said didn't make sense to you? I shall be happy to attempt to clarify.

In the second verse, it is saying that Solomon had access to more precious things than Nephi did..
Way to pick nits, by the way....
The OT has lots of historically insignificant information, why shouldn't the Book of Mormon.
If you take out all the trivial from anybody's "good book", you end up with a very small set of rules to live by.
In the bible, IMO, the OT is for the Jews, the NT is for christians, and even there, most of the NT is just story telling with little or no value toward one's salvation, Again, IMO, Matt. 25 is the very condensed version of christianit, and is also the part of christianity that most christians find so difficult to achieve...

 

[Panache]

In the second verse, it is saying that Solomon had access to more precious things than Nephi did..
Way to pick nits, by the way....

Thanks! I heard that God was in the details, so thats where I started my search.

The OT has lots of historically insignificant information, why shouldn't the Book of Mormon.

No reason it shouldn't. Why shouldn't I expect answers about lots of historically insignificant information from people claiming that it is my only path to salvation?

If you take out all the trivial from anybody's "good book", you end up with a very small set of rules to live by.
In the bible, IMO, the OT is for the Jews, the NT is for christians, and even there, most of the NT is just story telling with little or no value toward one's salvation, Again, IMO, Matt. 25 is the very condensed version of christianit, and is also the part of christianity that most christians find so difficult to achieve...

Interesting. I think the very condensed version of Christianity can be found in a single verse:

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." -Galatians 5:14

Unfortunately, this verse does not provide much room for verbal jousting. And I love verbal jousting.

 

[UtahBill]

Thanks! I heard that God was in the details, so thats where I started my search.



No reason it shouldn't. Why shouldn't I expect answers about lots of historically insignificant information from people claiming that it is my only path to salvation?



Interesting. I think the very condensed version of Christianity can be found in a single verse:



Unfortunately, this verse does not provide much room for verbal jousting. And I love verbal jousting.

God is in the details? NAH....in the basics, more like it...
So many people don't know what faith is, they want proof. All I am concerned about is that it is worth believing, and does it make you a better person.
There is no proof, looking for it is a waste of time...let your faith and the good teachings guide you, and disregard the minutae....

 

[Dittohead not!]

They do believe in a virgin birth, they think the father and the son are 2 separate entities, and that satan is a fallen angel while christ remained loyal to his father, they believe we are all children of God and in no way downplay his holiness, if anything they elevate it, they in no way shape or form believe Joseph Smith was greater than (or equal to) Jesus (this was one of the blatant hyperbolic misrepresentations that really jumped out from this video), to my recollection, they do not believe Jesus had earthly wives or children, the "god was a random lovechild" is more hyperbole from the video, they believe that in salvation and through the sanctity and bonds of marriage (and potentially of a family) can last for eternity (if you followed the teachings of christ while you are here on earth), yes.. consistent with what you say is in the bible in the afterlife they believe we are all spirit beings, and the afterlife is without sex, there is no need for it, salvation is glorious enough in and of itself, besides sex is a bodily function, just as you say is mentioned in the bible. It is very much based on the bible and biblical teachings, it just adds a few extra layers above and beyond the typical biblical teachings.

The video is propaganda and you are taking it at face value.

As I said the video takes basic tenants and expands on them and misrepresents things quite a bit, it was propaganda based on kernels of truth, and goes out of its way to portray them as cultist and not based on the bible at all, when in fact their religion is first and foremost rooted in biblical teachings and study, and their interpretations and beliefs regarding the bible are essentially the same as any other christian religion. Tales of the flood in Sunday School, Garden of Gethsemane, sermon on the mount, Daniel and the Lion, all the normal christian teachings and tenants are there.. and consistent with the bible, they do not reinterpret it, they just expand on the tale with another volume.

I can't believe I am defending Mormons, but I was raised in a Mormon family (before I got old enough to reject it - ~13 years old I started seriously doubting- I was steeped in their doctrine) and am familiar with what they believe - as crazy and implausible as I consider Mormon beliefs to be - their biblical teachings are in line with other christian faiths, and the portrayal of their beliefs that go above and beyond biblical teachings are presented in this video dishonestly, and it appears deliberately to make them look absolutely bat **** crazy and not in line with Christianity, when this is not really the case (the not in line with Christianity part), they are most certainly Christian.. very much so.

That about sums it up. Well said.

I, too, was raised in a Mormon family, and know the doctrine very well.

Here is a one page summary of Mormon beliefs, written by Joseph Smith in the 1830s. None of that has changed.

There is nothing any more difficult to believe in Mormonism than there is in any other Christian church, IMO, and some things that are much easier to belileve than many of the beliefs of fundamentalist Biblical literalists.

For one thing, Mormons have no problem with thte idea that the Earth is millions of years old, and that life formed through the process of evolution, or that some of the more absurd parts of the Old Testament are the result of mistranslations.

 

[The Baron]

Do we have any Mormons here that could referee these debates?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You know, though - just like any other religious belief - I'm sure some people consider their selves Mormon but don't *really* believe that.

Often times people hold a religion because it's what they were raised with or because they partially believe in it but are not 100% *to the word* in heart or action. I've always held the belief that any one religion could possibly be right (and if that's the case I'm ****ed) . . Maybe God is an alien :shrug: Who knows!

 

[Catz Part Deux]

They don't believe in the virgin birth, they don't believe that Jesus was God the father incarnate, they believe he was a brother (and equal) to satan.

Mormons DO believe in the virgin birth.

They do not believe that jesus has been incarnated as the God of THIS world, they believe he was the FIRSTBORN of Elohim, and played a specific role in the salvation of this world.

They do NOT believe that salvation is dependent ONLY on belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

They believe that Joseph Smith was greater than Jesus, they believe that Jesus had wives and children and that Joseph Smith was his descendant.

No, this is mostly incorrect. They do believe that Jesus WILL HAVE wives and children, and may already have this on another planet, as God of that planet. They do not believe that Joseph Smith is a descendent of Jesus Christ (to the best of my knowledge). They believe that Joseph Smith and Jesus were both prophets of God.

They downplay the Holiness of God by stating that he was just a random love child of another god somewhere out there.

They do not believe that Elohim is unique, except to this world. They believe that there are many worlds with many gods, and Elohim is one of them, that he lived as a man, was completely righteous, and was, as a consequence, exalted to godhood.

They believe that we are eternally married even though Jesus specifically states in the Bible that in heaven there is no marriage (and no sex, stating that our bodies will be spirit and "genderless" like the angels).

This is true.

It doesn't represent Christianity at all and is contrary to the Bible assuming the things in the video are true.

It's true, Mormonism is superficially similar to Christianity, but on a deeper level is extremely dissimilar to Christianity. I didn't learn these things until I went through the temple, which is why Marduc isn't familiar with some of them.

Mormons believe in 3 levels of heaven: the terrestrial, the telestial, and the celestial kingdom. In order to enter the celestial kingdom, individuals must participate in the rituals of the church, receive their endowments, be married in the temple to one or more wives, have that marriage sealed for time and all eternity, and then the individual must righteously follow all commandments of God. If that individual (male) is fully righteous, he will have an opportunity to be the god of his own world (like Elohim).

Women, on the other hand, can only enter the celestial kingdom as the spouse of an exalted man, and their role in the spirit world is to bring forth unnumbered spirit children to populate their husband's world.

It's not a great religion for women, obviously.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

If you want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon missionary.. they are trained in those things, having had every possible question there is thrown at them.
Likewise, if you want to know what ANY religion believes, ask THEM.

The Mormon Missionaries will likely not answer questions about these topics. They are trained in the MTC to avoid controversial subjects until after the person has been converted and gone through the temple ordinances.

I was a member of the LDS church and was married in the Salt Lake Temple in 1990. I lived in Utah from 1989 to 1999.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Here is a one page summary of Mormon beliefs, written by Joseph Smith in the 1830s. None of that has changed.

That is a very superficial presentation of many of the beliefs of the church. Do you disagree that exaltation of believers includes the opportunity for godhood?

The object of our earthly existence is that we may have a fullness of joy, and that we may become the sons and daughters of God, in the fullest sense of the word, being heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, to be kings and priests unto God, to inherit glory, dominion, exaltation, thrones and every power and attribute developed and possessed by our Heavenly Father. This is the object of our being on this earth. In order to attain unto this exalted position, it is necessary that we go through this mortal experience, or probation, by which we may prove ourselves worthy, through the aid of our elder brother Jesus - "Melchizedek Priesthood Manual", Official LDS Church Website 9 June, 2008.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

There is nothing any more difficult to believe in Mormonism than there is in any other Christian church, IMO, and some things that are much easier to belileve than many of the beliefs of fundamentalist Biblical literalists.

Oh, really?

Do you believe that the Garden of Eden was located in Missouri, and that Adam and Eve lived in Missouri after being expelled from it?

Adam-ondi-Ahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 1830s, Mormons being forced out of Jackson County, Missouri settled just south of Daviess County in Caldwell County, Missouri in the settlement of Far West.

In February 1838, Lyman Wight built a home and established a ferry on the Grand River at a spot known as "Wight's Ferry."

That spring, Joseph Smith, Jr. visited the site. He proclaimed there were either two or three (depending on subsequent interpretations) altars built by Adam at the site.[citation needed] One altar called the "altar of prayer" was by Lyman's house on Tower Hill. It was described as "sixteen feet long, by nine or ten feet wide, having its greatest extent north and south. The height of the altar at each end was some two and a half feet, gradually rising higher to the center, which was between four and five feet high — the whole surface being crowning."[3] The other altar — called the "altar of sacrifice" — was said to be a mile to the north on top of Spring Hill.[4]

On May 19, 1838, Smith formally revealed his belief that Adam-ondi-Ahman was indeed the exiled Garden of Eden.[5] On June 25, 1838, at a conference in Wight's orchard, a Mormon settlement at Adam-ondi-Ahman was formally established. Within a few months its population grew to 1500.[6]

Do you believe in the baptism of the dead? Have you participated in this practice? I have, in the basement of the Salt Lake Temple.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

A little levity...

At my house, we always called him Gordon B. Wrinkley.

 

[Coronado]

Do you believe that the Garden of Eden was located in Missouri, and that Adam and Eve lived in Missouri after being expelled from it?

After having been to Missouri many times, I can say without a doubt that it ain't no Garden of Eden.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

After having been to Missouri many times, I can say without a doubt that it ain't no Garden of Eden.

Having grown up in Missouri, I have to second this notion.

 

[Coronado]

Having grown up in Missouri, I have to second this notion.

My eternal condolences.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Didn't you grow up in Kansas?

 

[Coronado]

Didn't you grow up in Kansas?

Yes ma'am. Just outside of Wichita.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Yes ma'am. Just outside of Wichita.

I have to say, Missouri beats the shit out of Wichita.

 

[Coronado]

I have to say, Missouri beats the **** out of Wichita.

Meh. Home is home.

Branson is fun. My wife is bugging me to go to Tablerock one of these holiday weekends. I'm trying to get out there for Memorial Day so we can see the ceremony that's done at the family cemetery right near there.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Meh. Home is home.

Branson is fun. My wife is bugging me to go to Tablerock one of these holiday weekends. I'm trying to get out there for Memorial Day so we can see the ceremony that's done at the family cemetery right near there.

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Tablerock and Lake of the Ozarks. I really miss waterskiing every weekend in the summer. Branson isn't really my thing, though I do enjoy Silver Dollar City.

Have you ever been to Elephant Rocks and Johnson Shut-ins? If you do a trip to S. Missouri, you should check them out, great fun with kids.

 

[Coronado]

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Tablerock and Lake of the Ozarks. I really miss waterskiing every weekend in the summer. Branson isn't really my thing, though I do enjoy Silver Dollar City.

Have you ever been to Elephant Rocks and Johnson Shut-ins? If you do a trip to S. Missouri, you should check them out, great fun with kids.

I've never been to Elephant Rocks or Johnson Shut-ins. We used to go to SDC almost every summer when I was a kid. I haven't been there in a coon's age, though, but now that the young'n is getting to be old enough for that I'd like to take her there and then show her some old family stuff, too.

 

[Dittohead not!]

That is a very superficial presentation of many of the beliefs of the church. Do you disagree that exaltation of believers includes the opportunity for godhood?

It is just a brief summary.

Yes, the belief that humans are potential gods is central to the doctrine.

Another belief that is not mentioned, that I thought of when Romney was running for pres, and his religion became an issue: Mormons believe that the Constitution of the US was divinely inspired.

Now, that would be refreshing, don't you think, a president who believes that god inspired the Constitution?