Is the U.S. serious about keeping Ukraine a free Nation?

[Integrityrespec]

The US President says we will do everything in our power to keep Ukraine from falling to Putin.

ARE WE DOING EVERYTHING? (Putting sanctions on Putins energy industry, cripple the economy that runs off oil/gas sales, sending more advanced weapons, positioning more U.S. and NATO troops along the borders, enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine)
I realize many people do not want to risk war, I get it, I understand. On the other hand, do we believe this will be the last land grab by Putin? I think not. I believe he intends to reclaim as much of the old Soviet Union as he can. I appears he has a couple of goals. 1. To reset a buffer zone of nations controlled by Russia either directly or indirectly between Russia and the West. 2. Rebuild what was once the countries of the USSR. Here are the nations that may be targets, Ukraine, Moldova, Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.

President Vladimir Putin said on Feb. 22 that Russia respected the sovereignty of other ex-Soviet republics and that Moscow had made an exception with Ukraine because he said it was under foreign control. Does anyone believe this is all he wants?
Does this all sound like Germany 1933-1945? Are the western nations making the same mistake again?

 

[Exquisitor]

The US President says we will do everything in our power to keep Ukraine from falling to Putin.

ARE WE DOING EVERYTHING? (Putting sanctions on Putins energy industry, cripple the economy that runs off oil/gas sales, sending more advanced weapons, positioning more U.S. and NATO troops along the borders, enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine)
I realize many people do not want to risk war, I get it, I understand. On the other hand, do we believe this will be the last land grab by Putin? I think not. I believe he intends to reclaim as much of the old Soviet Union as he can. I appears he has a couple of goals. 1. To reset a buffer zone of nations controlled by Russia either directly or indirectly between Russia and the West. 2. Rebuild what was once the countries of the USSR. Here are the nations that may be targets, Ukraine, Moldova, Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.

President Vladimir Putin said on Feb. 22 that Russia respected the sovereignty of other ex-Soviet republics and that Moscow had made an exception with Ukraine because he said it was under foreign control. Does anyone believe this is all he wants?
Does this all sound like Germany 1933-1945? Are the western nations making the same mistake again?

I don't see why NATO can't engage Russia with a no-fly zone. Just use European pilots and planes.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

We should be embargoing all trade, including oil and gas. What's a few extra dollars at the pump compared to the safety and security of the free world?

 

[MamboDervish]

The US President says we will do everything in our power to keep Ukraine from falling to Putin.

Does anyone believe this is all he wants?

Probably not. I suspect most people don't.

Does this all sound like Germany 1933-1945?

Only very remotely. There are very obvious differences.

Are the western nations making the same mistake again?

No. The western nations are almost entirely unified in severing ties with, sanctioning Russia, and seizing their assets. No such universal attempts were made to isolate Germany before they invaded Poland.

 

[MamboDervish]

I don't see why NATO can't engage Russia with a no-fly zone. Just use European pilots and planes.

?? It should be obvious. Because Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and NATO is not under attack. In fact, doing so would play right into Putin's hands, essentially verifying his claims about the creeping, intrusive nature of having NATO on his border.

NATO has already established a no-fly zone - over NATO countries, where it appropriately belongs.

 

[HIP56948]

I think the US and many other countries will support the idea of a Free Ukraine. Those pictures on the evening news, showing Ukraine's fight for their people
is a powerful statement.

 

[Exquisitor]

?? It should be obvious. Because Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and NATO is not under attack. In fact, doing so would play right into Putin's hands, essentially verifying his claims about the creeping, intrusive nature of having NATO on his border.

NATO has already established a no-fly zone - over NATO countries, where it appropriately belongs.

Why does Ukraine need to be in NATO for them to act preemptively?

 

[ttwtt78640]

We should be embargoing all trade, including oil and gas. What's a few extra dollars at the pump compared to the safety and security of the free world?

OK, but why did it make any sense to import oil instead of allowing US companies to drill for it here? If we are going to import oil then get more from Canada (via pipelines) and shipped from other allied nations.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't see why NATO can't engage Russia with a no-fly zone. Just use European pilots and planes.

Why would using European NATO nations’ air forces be any different than using the US (also a NATO member) air force?

BTW, how can any nation “engage Russia” and expect that not to start a war with Russia?

 

[Exquisitor]

Why would using European NATO nations’ air forces be any different than using the US (also a NATO member) air force?

BTW, how can any nation “engage Russia” and expect that not to start a war with Russia?

They already have war with Russia.

But you're right, Russia, would just bomb NATO bases and it would escalate from there.

 

[HonestJoe]

The US President says we will do everything in our power to keep Ukraine from falling to Putin.

He might not be willing to say so but it'd be more about what the American voters would be willing to accept. After all, the most the US could do is send in ground forces to directly fight the Russians but that isn't something most Americans would support.

ARE WE DOING EVERYTHING? (Putting sanctions on Putins energy industry, cripple the economy that runs off oil/gas sales, sending more advanced weapons, positioning more U.S. and NATO troops along the borders, enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine)

I'm not sure what further sanctions could be targeted at the Russian energy sector and crippling the oil economy would involve the world oil economy, which would massively impact the US as much as Russia (not to mention all the other nations impacted).

I expect Ukraine is requesting and other nations are sending the most appropriate weapons and equipment for the personnel they have and the kind of war they're fighting. More advanced weapons aren't automatically better.

By all accounts, NATO as a whole has taken border defence very seriously and more troops there isn't necessary (and they'd say so if it was). Also, that in itself isn't about preventing Russia from taking Ukraine, only discouraging them from trying to push any further.

I'm not sure Ukraine would want a no fly zone, since they're still using aircraft (manned and drones) themselves. Regardless, an actual no fly zone would almost certainly be ignored by Russia and thus bring whoever was enforcing it in direct conflict with Russian forces. That would be an act of war in both directions which, if it involved a NATO nation would (theoretically) trigger article 5, leading to a European-wide war (or, as I'd fear, a political collapse of NATO which would give a massive boost to Russia).

So yes, on the face of it, I think the US government (and other governments involved) are generally doing everything they realistically can. Some of the specifics could have been quicker, clearer or better coordinated but the overall approach has been largely valid.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

The US President says we will do everything in our power to keep Ukraine from falling to Putin.

ARE WE DOING EVERYTHING? (Putting sanctions on Putins energy industry, cripple the economy that runs off oil/gas sales, sending more advanced weapons, positioning more U.S. and NATO troops along the borders, enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine)
I realize many people do not want to risk war, I get it, I understand. On the other hand, do we believe this will be the last land grab by Putin? I think not. I believe he intends to reclaim as much of the old Soviet Union as he can. I appears he has a couple of goals. 1. To reset a buffer zone of nations controlled by Russia either directly or indirectly between Russia and the West. 2. Rebuild what was once the countries of the USSR. Here are the nations that may be targets, Ukraine, Moldova, Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.

President Vladimir Putin said on Feb. 22 that Russia respected the sovereignty of other ex-Soviet republics and that Moscow had made an exception with Ukraine because he said it was under foreign control. Does anyone believe this is all he wants?
Does this all sound like Germany 1933-1945? Are the western nations making the same mistake again?

We are not the isolationalist nation were in the lead up to WW2, however we do have a cognitively declined president who in the lead up to the invasion of Ukraine was resigned to the invasion occurring and Ukraine rapidly falling and was ready to impose token economic sanctions. He only upped his game when it became politically necessary.

 

[TheParser]

Are the western nations making the same mistake again?

Of course, they are.

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is a war crime.

FOX reminded us of what that man did to the Chechens. Literally wiped out their cities.

Considering Stalin's cruelty, it is no surprise that man is equally heartless. He has no conscience (he is like our street criminals here). How can foreign bigwigs even shake his hand?

At the very least, all decent nations should recall their ambassadors and expel the Russian ambassadors and close their embassies. (Let neutral Switzerland be our go-between.)

It is outrageous that in 2022 a nation like Russia can get away with such blatant lawlessness.

We are not children.

Certain sanctions that could bring Russia to its knees are NOT being implemented because some prominent Americans would lose a lot of money if those sanctions were put into effect.

 

[MamboDervish]

Why does Ukraine need to be in NATO for them to act preemptively?

?? It wouldn't be preemptively, as it's already far to late to preempt anything. It would be a foolish and uncalled for escalation of an existing conflict, against a global superpower who has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, with veto power. It's a dumb move anyway you look at it.

Unless you think all-out European war against a nuclear power is a good idea, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself. Why on Earth would anybody provoke that?

 

[Exquisitor]

?? It wouldn't be preemptively, as it's already far to late to preempt anything. It would be a foolish and uncalled for escalation of an existing conflict, against a global superpower who has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, with veto power. It's a dumb move anyway you look at it.

Unless you think all-out European war against a nuclear power is a good idea, in which case you should be ashamed of yourself. Why on Earth would anybody provoke that?

I guess so?

Just vetting out the possibilities.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

OK, but why did it make any sense to import oil instead of allowing US companies to drill for it here? If we are going to import oil then get more from Canada (via pipelines) and shipped from other allied nations.

We aren't drilling any less than we did before.

 

[Peter]

I don't see why NATO can't engage Russia with a no-fly zone. Just use European pilots and planes.

I have a feeling Russia wouldn't see the difference as it's all NATO at the end of the day.

 

[ttwtt78640]

We aren't drilling any less than we did before.

Yes we are. Click “5Y” in the link below.

United States Crude Oil Production - December 2022 Data - 1950-2021 Historical

Crude Oil Production in the United States increased to 12381 BBL/D/1K in October from 12268 BBL/D/1K in September of 2022. Crude Oil Production in the United States averaged 7654.25 BBL/D/1K from 1950 until 2022, reaching an all time high of 12860.00 BBL/D/1K in November of 2019 and a record low...

tradingeconomics.com

More oil supply could stop massive price spikes. But US producers won't fill that gap

Oil prices are soaring to seven-year highs, but don't expect US oil producers to ramp up supply.

www.cnn.com

 

[Cordelier]

OK, but why did it make any sense to import oil instead of allowing US companies to drill for it here? If we are going to import oil then get more from Canada (via pipelines) and shipped from other allied nations.

Oil isn't the problem - it's Natural Gas... and we're already burning through our reserves of that. We've got 6.6% of the World's Reserves, but we account for 23.6% of the World's production. The problem is that we consume 90%+ of what we produce. We need to find a means of diverting some of that consumption into exports and to develop the LNG infrastructure we need to get those exports to our European allies.

 

[Dayton3]

I don't see why NATO can't engage Russia with a no-fly zone. Just use European pilots and planes.

The Russians would never see that as a distinction.

 

[Mircea]

I realize many people do not want to risk war, I get it, I understand.

To avoid war, NATO needed only to agree not to continue its aggressive expansion.

On the other hand, do we believe this will be the last land grab by Putin? I think not.

Is there a reason you're ignoring the conspicuous land grabs by NATO and the US?

I wouldn't think you'd want to be a hypocrite, since we all know how Jesus has a particular disdain for hypocrites.

I believe he intends to reclaim as much of the old Soviet Union as he can.

Your beliefs are unfounded and based entirely on prejudice, bigotry and ignorance.

I appears he has a couple of goals. 1. To reset a buffer zone of nations controlled by Russia either directly or indirectly between Russia and the West.

Buffer-States, yes, but not controlled by Russia. If you knew anything about Russian history, and obviously you don't, then you'd understand.

2. Rebuild what was once the countries of the USSR. Here are the nations that may be targets, Ukraine, Moldova, Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.

They're targets only in your imagination.

President Vladimir Putin said on Feb. 22 that Russia respected the sovereignty of other ex-Soviet republics and that Moscow had made an exception with Ukraine because he said it was under foreign control.

It is under foreign control. Bush illegally overthrew Ukraine. That's probably a good thing seeing how Obama was so busy illegally overthrowing governments he might not have had time to illegally overthrow the Ukrainian government.

 

[Felis Leo]

To avoid war, NATO needed only to agree not to continue its aggressive expansion.

How is a country which voluntarily petitions to join NATO "Aggressive Expansion"?

You realize that unlike Russia, NATO does not roll tanks over the border into neighboring countries, decapitate governments then demand that the new puppet regimes they put in place join NATO, correct?

 

[Mircea]

How is a country which voluntarily petitions to join NATO "Aggressive Expansion"?

Um, it isn't voluntary.

I get you're not familiar with things-legal, but to be voluntary, it must be free of inducements in any form, be in one's best interest and not create any burden.

You realize that unlike Russia, NATO does not roll tanks over the border into neighboring countries, decapitate governments then demand that the new puppet regimes they put in place join NATO, correct?

Oh, I get it. If Russia had just bombed the crap out of Ukraine like NATO bombed the crap out of Yugoslavia and Libya and the others, that would have been perfectly okay.

Putin could have publicly denounced the independence of enclaves in Ukraine, just like the Clinton Administration publicly denounced the independence of the Yugoslav Republics.

And then Putin could have secretly armed and dumped money into those enclaves just like the Clinton Administration secretly armed and dumped money into the Yugoslav Republics.

Next, Putin could have given money to Cuba to buy weapons from Iran, just like the Clinton Administration gave money to Pakistan to buy weapons from Iran.

Next, Putin could have the Iranian weapons shipped to Crimea, just like the Clinton Administration had the Iranian weapons shipped to Albania.

Then, Putin could get al-Qaida to smuggle the weapons from Crimea into Ukraine, just like the Clinton Administration used al-Qaida to smuggle the Iranian weapons into Bosnia and Kosovo-Metohija (that was bin Laden's #2 man al-Zawahiri whom the US later killed in a drone strike in Pakistan along with civilians.)

Putin could get Russian intel services and the Iranian VEVAK to inspect the weapons in Crimea, just like the Clinton Administration used the CIA and Iranian VEVAK to inspect weapons in Albania, you know, lest manpad ADA weapons be included in the shipments.

Putin could also instruct Russian Media to lie by omission and pretend Ukranians didn't live there, just like the Clinton Administration got the US Media to lie by omission and never mention the Metohija Province where Serbs had lived for 6+ centuries prior to the arrival of Albanian Muslims to the Kosovo Province east of Metohija at the behest of the Ottoman Empire. You know, if the truth were told, people might the wrong idea that some people really do have legitimate claims and that would undermine the actions of the Administration in its efforts to conquer.

Then, when Ukrainians resisted, Putin could bomb the snot out of them, just like Clinton and NATO bombed the snot out of Serbs who resisted.

So, I guess if Putin had done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation, right?

Because I know you aren't a hypocrite, or are you?

 

[Tigerace117]

Well, I can tell you that people on this board are MUCH more interested in fighting Russia than anyone I talked to at Fort Sill was.