Is The Russian Invasion of Ukraine a Crime Against Humanity?

[Patriotic Voter]

OK. But I've looked at it from a few different angles....and I just cant see how this is my problem?

I never said it is your problem.

 

[Lutherf]

For the purposes of this poll we can use the Nuremberg definition of a Crime Against Humanity:

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Well, that depends on how you want to look at things.

If you view Putin as invading a sovereign nation as a bad thing then maybe it's a crime but if you view open warfare as a crime against humanity then it's every other nation that is committing atrocities by provoking Putin with sanctions and stuff. It's like if your car gets stolen or your business gets looted or if you got raped. You can resist but doing so might have the result of further enraging your attacker and in such a circumstance it is YOU, not your attacker that is guilty of crimes against humanity.

This is the new, "woke" world and we have to do better for our fellow humans. The best way we can do better is to encourage them to just lay back and take it when they're getting ****ed so that both they and we don't have to get more involved than absolutely necessary. When the assault is done we can then all write scholarly letters on how things could have been different and humanity will be saved!

 

[Rawley]

Indeed it is .
To see the US essentially repeating the same type of nonsense that they stupidly used to claim that there was a Russian 'invasion 'of US politics . Shot down in flames .

Well done Russia for slapping the US into its now won place of failed Empire and major planet terrorist nation .
The good thing is that the US has an unbroken record of failure whenever it tries to impose its will on others .

Korea , Vietnam , Iraq , Libya , Syria , Somalia , Yemen and then the Afghanistan humiliation . A totally failed Empire that believed it was the mightiest .

How about when we saved your sorry asses from Hitler?

 

[XDU]

For the purposes of this poll we can use the Nuremberg definition of a Crime Against Humanity:

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

If you believe the reunification of those (Ukrainian Cossacks) who pledged allegiance to another (non-communist Russia) in exchange for protection against aristocratic landowners who oppressed them as serfs (going back to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) is a form of aggression, then sure.

If you don't, then no.

The exception is if you recognize Holodomor as an atrocity and believe Ukraine deserved to be released from that allegiance as relief for oppression under communism.

The problem at stake is Ukraine literally declared independence from the communist party doing so after the 1991 hardliner coup against the New Union Treaty failed. It's a state that exists not for national self-determination, but for communist ideology. Ukraine decommunized after it declared independence, not before, so it should be reunited with Russia.

Those who believe otherwise are confessing to provocative opportunistic politics of "Nanana poo poo, make me stop," nothing less.

 

[XDU]

How about when we saved your sorry asses from Hitler?

You realize Imperial Russia offered to protect Cossack Ukrainians from Jews who were just "doing their jobs" in the 17th century to oppress them by working as estate managers for aristocratic landowners, right? This is literally why the Cossack Riots happened and tons of Jews among others were killed in retaliation. It's no different from ordinary Germans who enabled the Holocaust by just "doing their jobs" for the Nazis.

That's why Ukraine was a part of Russia after the Second Partition of Poland. The Cossacks pledged allegiance to be protected from abuse.

 

[Integrityrespec]

For the purposes of this poll we can use the Nuremberg definition of a Crime Against Humanity:

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Hard to classify as any one thing. Certainly a crime. A crime against a sovereign nation and it's people'. Is it more a crime against humanity or agains the rules set by civilized people? Obviously the communist, former communist don't apply the same set of rules or they wouldn't be doing this to start with. So, when we try to assume that every other nation has the same standard that's a problem. What we expect are by our standards and that's not theirs. We have countries that are members of the U.N. and other world organizations and we assume they will all share certain common beliefs and standards of behavior. Obviously that's not true.
The current situation needs decisive and swift actions and they have to be severe if we are to hope they work.

 

[Rawley]

You realize Imperial Russia offered to protect Cossack Ukrainians from Jews who were just "doing their jobs" in the 17th century to oppress them by working as estate managers for aristocratic landowners, right? This is literally why the Cossack Riots happened and tons of Jews among others were killed in retaliation. It's no different from ordinary Germans who enabled the Holocaust by just "doing their jobs" for the Nazis.

That's why Ukraine was a part of Russia after the Second Partition of Poland. The Cossacks pledged allegiance to be protected from abuse.

OK. Not sure what that has to do with a Brit badmouthing the US military.

 

[Fabiusbile]

You're no orc; you're a Grima.
You can try to turn the world gray, but there is still right and wrong, and right now Putin is wrong.

Is Putin wrong as well as NATO in Yugoslavia? Or is there something else?)))

 

[Fabiusbile]

Listen, NATO is bad too.

Fine...

Past wrongs and history aside Russia is clearly at fault here. I'll talk about the crimes of NATO and the west all day, but I won't ignore Russia doing the same things I criticize the US for.

After all, we have discussed this issue with you, I do not see the point in writing this again. I see your opinion that you think what is happening is wrong, in Russia they also think the same... Ukraine had 8 years and 2 presidents to fulfill the Minsk agreements:
1) The reform of the constitution and the allocation of a special status of Donbass.
2) Holding elections in Donbass under the leadership of the OSCE
3) Gaining control over the border
The Ukrainian authorities did not even try to do anything. For them, the Minsk agreements are a defeat in the war... and people continue to die.
What is happening now is to end the war.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Among others over history. But we're talking, as Abby Hoffman said, today is the 1st day of the rest of your life. Biden is the one who pulled us out of Afghanistan. Let us not rehash the past mistakes of other presidents & put them on the present one. It's a wait & see thing. Pooten is a bad guy, a known killer, so I'm for the good guys.

Abbey Hoffman?

You couldn't think of anyone else to quote? OMFG!

 

[Nomad4Ever]

After all, we have discussed this issue with you, I do not see the point in writing this again.

I do appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective.

I see your opinion that you think what is happening is wrong, in Russia they also think the same... Ukraine had 8 years and 2 presidents to fulfill the Minsk agreements:
1) The reform of the constitution and the allocation of a special status of Donbass.
2) Holding elections in Donbass under the leadership of the OSCE
3) Gaining control over the border

Well, the thing is...that's not Russia's business? You can't tell another country they have to capitulate to an agreement or you'll invade them. That's like if the US said Russia had to disarm their nukes or the US will invade them, then blaming Russia for the US attacking them when they don't agree.

What is happening now is to end the war.

Only because Russia is planning on winning it. But yes, one side winning the war does tend to end it.

 

[MaryP]

Is Putin wrong as well as NATO in Yugoslavia? Or is there something else?)))

Not talking about Yugoslavia here.

 

[jpevans]

Abbey Hoffman?

You couldn't think of anyone else to quote? OMFG!

Most people think “ the 1st day of the rest of your life” is just a poster.
Abby is a homeboy.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Most people think “ the 1st day of the rest of your life” is just a poster.
Abby is a homeboy.

Pretty much sums you up.

 

[jpevans]

Pretty much sums you up.

YIPPIE!

 

[Fabiusbile]

that's not Russia's business?

So the thing is that Russia considers this its business and is guided by the already existing precedents, NATO in Yugoslavia.

Only because Russia is planning on winning it. But yes, one side winning the war does tend to end it.

There were three development options.
1) Kiev fulfills the Minsk agreements and gets the Donbass back. What Kiev was not going to do.
2) Everything goes on, shelling, trenches, people living at the front.
3) Current developments.

There were no other options.

 

[bluesmoke]

We didn't invade Iraq to make it part of the US. This is naked territorial expansion on Putin's part, regardless of how much tap dancing y'all do to justify it.

A crime against humanity does not require there be concurrent attempt at territorial expansion.

I don't know who you mean by "y'all". Do you mean to incl me? Please advise.

 

[MaryP]

A crime against humanity does not require there be concurrent attempt at territorial expansion.

I don't know who you mean by "y'all". Do you mean to incl me? Please advise.

I was referring to your comparison to Iraq.

If you are trying to explain Putin's actions as something other than bald, unprovoked territorial expansion, yes, you're included in y'all. I'm not terribly interested in what you call it. If you don't like 'crime against humanity' that's fine. But it sucks, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Indydave]

Trump says it's a genius move......so i guess it's ok

 

[bluesmoke]

I'm afraid Alan is not in a position to take this impartially.
For him, the world is black and white. Where he is from the kingdom of the elves, and there are orcs, Hitler, etc.
Arguments that NATO has exactly the same episodes in a very recent history... nah, they don't work, he refuses to take it.

I'm not so sure of "...exactly the same episodes...", but similar enough to take into serious consideration as being indicative of the same.

 

[bluesmoke]

We didn't invade Iraq to make it part of the US. This is naked territorial expansion on Putin's part, regardless of how much tap dancing y'all do to justify it.

What makes you think I'm a part of "y'all" and am attempting to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

We had no substantial proof of Iraq possessing WMD and then we invaded Iraq preemptively, as never done in US history. IMO, the US had no desire to take Iraq as a territory of the US. Just the opposite to Russia invading Ukraine now and in 2014. So, what? The US invaded Iraq without just cause. As has Russia invading Ukraine.

 

[MaryP]

What makes you think I'm a part of "y'all" and am attempting to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

We had no substantial proof of Iraq possessing WMD and then we invaded Iraq preemptively, as never done in US history. IMO, the US had no desire to take Iraq as a territory of the US. Just the opposite to Russia invading Ukraine now and in 2014. So, what? The US invaded Iraq without just cause. As has Russia invading Ukraine.

I have no idea why we invaded Iraq, but it has nothing to do with Ukraine.

 

[bluesmoke]

I was referring to your comparison to Iraq.

If you are trying to explain Putin's actions as something other than bald, unprovoked territorial expansion, yes, you're included in y'all. I'm not terribly interested in what you call it. If you don't like 'crime against humanity' that's fine. But it sucks, whatever you want to call it.

What did I say that was included in your definition of "Y'all" that was incorrect as to the facts? If so, what evidence can you produce to refute?

 

[antiquity]

The invasion itself is not a war crime but some of the action against civilians is.

 

[MaryP]

What did I say that was included in your definition of "Y'all" that was incorrect as to the facts? If so, what evidence can you produce to refute it?

I've replied twice and don't intend to go for three.