• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a...

Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a...


  • Total voters
    54
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I was honestly unaware of this stuff going prior to the NC law being passed. Or, if I was aware it was so low on my radar that I barely gave it a notice.

Anyway, then everybody started countering and then countering the countering, and I'm sitting here watching all this thinking, "Geez, get a grip, people. :roll:"

And NC's law was in response to Charlotte's EXTREMELY poorly written law, which pretty much made every private business have to put up with anyone using any restroom at any time, because all one essentially had to do was "identify", and if a business did so much as even ASK a person if they should be in a particular restroom, and were reported for doing so, they'd be fined like... $20k or something.
 
I personally think that it's an issue that was brought up by people (outside the government). So not a political wedge per se, but I but definitely think that it's not a legitimate issue that needs to be solved and here's why I think that:

My personal thoughts and feelings about Trans-Gender aside, I think that the signs on the bathrooms should refer to sex, not gender. In my mind, the distinctions between bathrooms only exists for 1.) Efficiency: Men can pee standing up. For women it's harder, 2.) Protection: Most men don't want to rape men and women feel the same way about women, and 3.) Social protection: Because unfortunately most adults still aren't mature enough to handle sharing a bathroom between sexes/genders

With that in mind, I honestly think it's easily solved: Look between your legs. If you see something, head to the bathroom that says men. If nothing's there, go to the bathroom that says women.

A few people who are transgender have told me that it's about feeling like you fit in, but I can honestly say I've never wanted to fit into the community that is the bathroom.
 
The Conservative Right has been set-off ever since the first Puritan woman unbuttoned the top button of her stifling black dress while hoeing weeds... :roll:

The Conservative Right let's cut the PC BS and use a better term- the Regressives- use such overblown hysterics to attempt to buffalo people into believing their worst fears rather than work toward a better world. I'm no rose colored glasses guy, I've seen some of the worst man can do on this earth, so don't even TRY to go there...

Facts are not the Regressive's friend, fear is. For generations the transgendered have been using the 'wrong' bathroom with no little grand daughters traumatized. No horde of men have stormed the female bathroom since the TG's have won court decisions.

The Regressives are losing control of society and that is the real issue. Control, dominance, and doing whatever it takes to try and keep it. Fearing the future isn't what made America great- it does however seem to be what will lay us low... :peace

Fear is the prime mover for liberals as well, and it is working very well for Hillary.
 
I don't get some of you on here.....

When pro-transgender laws are passed, which started first btw, nobody thinks that is a problem.

But when areas go and pre-emptively pass laws against it, or like in NC, pass a law in response to a city in their state...... then suddenly

ITS ALL THE CONSERVATIVES PITCHING A FIT AND CHOOSING A NEW MORAL WEDGE ISSUE!!!!!


When you fail to realize that this whole thing was started by the people who started forcing this transgender equality on us to begin with.

Oh noes, how dare these people try to force equality on us!!1!1!!one!111!!
 
Oh its purely manufactured . . I dont know if its meant as a distraction though . .

Its manufactured because transgenders have been using the bathroom they prefer my whole life, decades . . . now all of a sudden its magically an issue..and dangerous LMAO

its just the bigots, anti freedom people and the people who want to discriminate trying to lash back because equal rights and equality is winning . . .

like i have said many times the best part is they are only going to lose and then HELP further establish equality . . . the dummies dont learn, they make their fears a reality with this insane nutcase laws, its hilarious
 
Im sorry, but forcing this **** upon elementary school kids? And high schools? You know there are going to be all sorts of problems there.

Because any system of "proving" that one truly is transgender is not going to be acceptable to the SJW crowd.
Yes, as I presented in this thread, there are all kinds of problems with Obama's edict to the public school systems: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/253427-which-childs-restroom-discomfort-disadvantage-wins-loses-w-37-a.html.

Some in that thread have carried Obama's message further and have responded that, in addition to instituting unisex multi-use restrooms in public schools, teenage girls should have to dress for gym and shower with the boys too.

They need to remember that we have laws against exposing under-age kids to such.

Those who suggest such would do well to think twice first, lest they begin to be thought of with a label they're not going to like.

There are laws against facilitating conditions (12-year-old male walking into the girls restroom where second and third grade girls are and then doing his thing at the urinal rather openly) where younger opposite-sex underage kids get exposed.

No school administrator is going to want to take that you-bet-your-job-and-career risk.

Obama blew it big time here, without question.

He simply did not think this through.
 
Once they win this battle they'll demand men sit down and pee; and have all urinals everywhere removed. Just wait.

So that we can stand up to pee instead. Or we could simply make one room of stalls and one of urinals and let people of either gender/sex use either.
 
Manufactured wedge issue no doubt. Trans people have been using the bathrooms they want for years without incident. This is just the conservative right pitching a new fit after the SSM battle has been lost.

While I agree with the first part 100% There are many conservative right wingers that are completely fine with trans people using the restroom so its not fair to group them together(which you probably didnt mean to do). Yes I agree "stereotypically" thats the view but Im just saying that many of them also dont care.

I also fully agree that most of them are the babies upset over equal rights winning for SSM so now they are making up more false cries. lol
 
So that we can stand up to pee instead. Or we could simply make one room of stalls and one of urinals and let people of either gender/sex use either.

Whatever, they're already making male pansies sit down in Sweden.
 
Whatever, they're already making male pansies sit down in Sweden.

A law proposed for people that is about as dumb as potty laws here, since neither could really be enforced to any great extent without violating some serious privacy of others.
 
No way to know for sure, but I'd bet this particular incident never would have happened had it not been for the current drama.

Not excusing it, just sayin'.

I think it's just more likely to happen now. I've read stories from androgynous people facing situations where they are beaten or almost beaten for being in the women's room, even though they are women. I think some people just notice it more now, look for it. Probably already shared a restroom with dozens of more transgenders and hundreds of androgynous people, yet now those types are a threat.
 
I think it's just more likely to happen now. I've read stories from androgynous people facing situations where they are beaten or almost beaten for being in the women's room, even though they are women. I think some people just notice it more now, look for it. Probably already shared a restroom with dozens of more transgenders and hundreds of androgynous people, yet now those types are a threat.
In the short term... until we get sidetracked by the next drama-du-jour... you're probably right.
 
Oh noes, how dare these people try to force equality on us!!1!1!!one!111!!

When there are 500 different "transgender" styles, it basically means anything goes.

That isn't equality, its madness.
 
So that we can stand up to pee instead. Or we could simply make one room of stalls and one of urinals and let people of either gender/sex use either.

And what is wrong with the current system???????
 
And prior to laws like they placed in Charlotte, both of those individuals could, and likely did, use the restrooms you were indicating they should be using (men's room for the first person, women's room for the second person).

On the flip side, because of the ridiculously broad and purely thought out language of the Charlotte law, you could have people like this:

Purple+Dress+with+Military+Jacket.JPG


Using the ladies room and people like this:

tumblr_inline_mperngpf7m1qz4rgp.jpg


Using the men's room. Or people like this:

Justin+Bieber.jpg


Using either ;)

Why? Because the law was stupidly and excessively broad, with some of those who advocating it debasing the notion of transgenderism into literally just a "feeling".

I would put $100 dollars down that both of those individuals you posted pictures of are individuals who have undergone some kind of legitimate medical procedure in an effort to transition; be it surgical, pharmaceutical, or psychological. They are both likely individuals who have been, or would be, clinically diagnosed as transgendered and have taken legitimate steps to actively and permanently transition themselves to permanently living as their new gender.

That is not the standard set, or made necessary, by the charlotte law.

I always find the posting of pictures argument to be idiotic, because the very PREMISE of why you'd post such pictures highlights the issues both sides are making and yet missing; that people simply want to be comfortable.

Yes, it'd be uncomfortable if the runway model you posted was wondering around in the men's room. Why? Because no matter what they "identify" as, outwardly the rational reaction to someone seeing them is to think "hey, it's a woman in the men's room". And whether people like, or think we should move beyond, the fact our society has ingrained in us that bathrooms are not unisex...that's the reality of our society at this time. So when someone who appears to not be a man is in the mens room, or not appears to be a woman in the woman's room, it can reasonably make people uncomfortable. Indeed, that is the very basis as to how posts like yours...going "Do you think THIS person belongs in a mens room?!"...are supposed to work.

But the problem is, laws like Charlotte's did not actually coincide with that notion; it flew in the face of it. It was not simply dealing with legitimately transitioning individuals who are actively living their life as another gender; it was broadly stated to such a degree that literally anyone could conceivably make the claim. That's bad law, and the only reason to create the law in such a broad fashion is, in part, to force this wedge issue. To take it a step beyond support for "transgendered" and to push into this realm of gender fluidity.

A very well written and thought out response. Done so well that apparently not one single person could even attempt to refute it so ignored it in favor of partisanship BS. Kudos to you Sir.
 
While I agree with the first part 100% There are many conservative right wingers that are completely fine with trans people using the restroom so its not fair to group them together(which you probably didnt mean to do). Yes I agree "stereotypically" thats the view but Im just saying that many of them also dont care.

I also fully agree that most of them are the babies upset over equal rights winning for SSM so now they are making up more false cries. lol

I, for one, have pretty much always supported homosexual marriage. It doesn't effect others in the slightest bit.

However,

Transgender people were better off before people started making a big deal about this. And I blame it all on Charlotte passing a stupid law letting anyone who "self-identifies" as something else at any time. This sort of thing effects others, unlike the issue of homosexual marriage.

We all agree transgender folks were using the restroom that they identified with before all these laws were being made. But by Charlotte passing a dumb law, that forced NC to trump them with state law, which then created a huge firestorm of media hoopla along with other more conservatives states and cities passing their own laws.

Am I saying that Charlotte and NC's back and forth were the first? No. I make no claim to such. Only that NC's law seemed to become the catalyst for all this nonsense.

And it is because of this nonsense that people who would otherwise not even recognize that transgender people exist are now going to be more vocal about their dislike of the idea of transgender folks getting a free pass of Cartman's "I DO WHAT I WAAANNT".


So yeah, the actual transgender person was better off before all this nonsense.
 
Okay....hold up for a moment because this started out sensible and then became idiotic.

"Manufactured wedge issue no doubt" <----- okay reasonable

"Trans people have been using the bathroom they want for years without incident" <----- okay reasonable

"This is just the conservative right pitching a new fit after the SSM battle has been lost. " <--- the **** kind of hyper partisan bull**** is this. Great job with the blinders there Your Star, but this is beyond crap.

February of 2016. That's time that Charlotte decided to change their city ordinance to include protection based on "gender identity" and "Gender expression" as it relates to things like restrooms.

March of 2016. That's the time that HB2 was passed by North Carolina, the law that has so many people outraged towards NC and "Conservatives" on this issue.

February comes before March.

"Trans people have been using bathrooms they want for years without incident", but it's apparently not a "manufactured wedge issue" for Charlotte to decide to take legal action anyway to codify it in a broad fashion into the law. But conservatives react to it, and they're "pitching a fit" because they "lost" on SSM.

Bull****, and pathetically hyper partisan analysis of the situation.

I agree with your first assertion; it's a manufactured wedge issue. But it's manufacturing can be attributed to both sides, as can the dumping of lighter fluid onto this mess that both sides have been engaging in as well.

Actually, Zyph, you are incorrect. There are anti-discrimination laws similar to the one in Charlotte in many states in the US... from the research that I have done, approximately 17. There are also over 200 cities that have laws like these on the books. There has not been any issues with any of them, and though there have been some minor disagreements, some attempts at bills being presented (all not being passed or shot down in committee), from what I've seen, North Carolina was the FIRST state to pass a law that voided any of the anti-discrimination laws regarding transsexuals and bathrooms. The Charlotte law was nothing unusual; there have been many laws like it. The NC law WAS unusual, and it was THAT which started the firestorm. So, no... it was HB2 that started this mess. It was the FIRST to be passed. Then, of course, Target, Obama and a whole host of conservative and liberal idiots added fuel to the fire and helped turn this thing into the 4 alarm circus that it has become.
 
A very well written and thought out response. Done so well that apparently not one single person could even attempt to refute it so ignored it in favor of partisanship BS. Kudos to you Sir.

Honestly, I just assumed Beiber scared everyone off and couldn't blame them for it ;)
 
I, for one, have pretty much always supported homosexual marriage. It doesn't effect others in the slightest bit.

However,

Transgender people were better off before people started making a big deal about this. And I blame it all on Charlotte passing a stupid law letting anyone who "self-identifies" as something else at any time. This sort of thing effects others, unlike the issue of homosexual marriage.

We all agree transgender folks were using the restroom that they identified with before all these laws were being made. But by Charlotte passing a dumb law, that forced NC to trump them with state law, which then created a huge firestorm of media hoopla along with other more conservatives states and cities passing their own laws.

Am I saying that Charlotte and NC's back and forth were the first? No. I make no claim to such. Only that NC's law seemed to become the catalyst for all this nonsense.

And it is because of this nonsense that people who would otherwise not even recognize that transgender people exist are now going to be more vocal about their dislike of the idea of transgender folks getting a free pass of Cartman's "I DO WHAT I WAAANNT".


So yeah, the actual transgender person was better off before all this nonsense.

Here's the problem with your argument, Caine. The Charlotte law was nothing unusual. Laws like this have been passed all over the country. This has happened mostly due to the significant discrimination that transsexuals encounter, along with a large percentage of transsexuals being verbally or physically harassed in public restrooms. Now, of course that kind of discrimination and harassment is illegal, but transsexuals are often not included in the laws that protect folks from things like that. Transexuals... like gays until recently, have not been considered a protected class. So, laws were added. There have been some challenges to these laws, but all have either been defeated or died in committee in selective legislatures. EXCEPT the NC law. It was the first to actually pass, as far as I know. That's what's created this entire circus... HB2. Nothing unusual about the Charlotte law. Plenty of states and cities have laws just like it. HB2 WAS unusual. The state of NC was the catalyst, NOT Charlotte.

Has this entire mess caused problems for transsexuals? Absolutely. I've seen it first hand. I blame HB2, the conservative over reaction to the Charlotte law, the liberal over reaction to HB2, the conservative over reaction to the liberal over reaction, etc... and the TONS of misinformation that both sides are spewing.
 
Actually, Zyph, you are incorrect.

About what?

The assertions I made:

1. It's largely a manufactured wedge issue at the moment

2. That both sides are using it as a manufactured wedge issue, not JUST conservatives.

3. That the Charlotte law occurred before the North Carolina law

Which of those are wrong?

I didn't say or imply that the Charlotte law was unique or the first of it's kind. I simply suggested that both sides have been attempting in recent months to push this as a wedge issue. That the NC law didn't come into being from nothing and in reaction to nothing, but rather in reaction to the other side taking action to codify something that was already essentially occurring regularly. Codification that was ballyhooed enough to garner attention in news sources beyond simply local Charlotte ones.

Laws allowing for gay marriage were the "unusual ones" at the time they were being past, yet many would claim that wasn't an example of them "creating" a wedge issue. Simply because one law is unusual or one isn't is not the singular definition of wedge issue or creating a wedge issue. The reaction to, promotion of, and messaging towards a "usual" law can create an "unusual" situation and can be an indication that the focus on such a "usual" thing may be "unusual" in nature.

From an anecdotal stand point; I can't recall any other times of seeing people on my social media feeds praising locations for creating such laws. Yet when the Charlotte ordinance was passed, I did see such things celebrating the progressive treatment of transgendered people.

Furthermore, the PRIMARY thrust of my post was not regarding who "started it". Note that even though I indicated the Charlotte law came before the North Carolina law, never even once did I claim either side "started it" or deserved greater blame. Rather, my ENTIRE post was aimed at simply claiming that both sides are utilizing it as a wedge issue and that blaming any single side is wrong.

"But it's manufacturing can be attributed to both sides, as can the dumping of lighter fluid onto this mess that both sides have been engaging in as well."

The final line of my post made my meaning clear. If you took my post as attempting to imply that the Charlotte law was somehow "at fault" or "to blame" for this being a wedge issue, then I'd humbly suggest that you ignored the summation line at the end and inferred meaning to my post that was outside of the context that it meant.

Whether the Charlotte law was "unusual" or not, the reaction to it within social media and in parts of the media helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. Whether North Carolina's law was a first of it's kind of not, subsequent action since from both sides have helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. And yes, because it was the first of it's kind, it too helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. My post was not aimed at laying blame for "starting it", but simply highlighting the ridiculousness of single sided condemnation in this regard. As you yourself have pointed out, both sides have been adding fuel to the fire and have drove this as a wedge issue.
 
Here's the problem with your argument, Caine. The Charlotte law was nothing unusual. Laws like this have been passed all over the country. This has happened mostly due to the significant discrimination that transsexuals encounter, along with a large percentage of transsexuals being verbally or physically harassed in public restrooms. Now, of course that kind of discrimination and harassment is illegal, but transsexuals are often not included in the laws that protect folks from things like that. Transexuals... like gays until recently, have not been considered a protected class. So, laws were added. There have been some challenges to these laws, but all have either been defeated or died in committee in selective legislatures. EXCEPT the NC law. It was the first to actually pass, as far as I know. That's what's created this entire circus... HB2. Nothing unusual about the Charlotte law. Plenty of states and cities have laws just like it. HB2 WAS unusual. The state of NC was the catalyst, NOT Charlotte.

Has this entire mess caused problems for transsexuals? Absolutely. I've seen it first hand. I blame HB2, the conservative over reaction to the Charlotte law, the liberal over reaction to HB2, the conservative over reaction to the liberal over reaction, etc... and the TONS of misinformation that both sides are spewing.

You are aware that the law passed in Charlotte cannot stop people from verbally harassing a transgender person right? And that this law wasn't going to change how people felt about transgender people? And that the law only help bring those who otherwise didn't give a rats ass about transgender folks out of the woodwork to voice their opposition and make their internet social media threats against a fictitious transgender person entering the bathroom after their child in a hypothetical scenario.

As I said, transgender people were better off BEFORE their "plight" of getting to say..

images
 
Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a legitimate issues that needed to be addressed, or is it a manufactured wedge issue?

TG = transgender, in case you don't know.

It's yet another left-wing, Obama perversion.
 
There have been some challenges to these laws, but all have either been defeated or died in committee in selective legislatures. EXCEPT the NC law. It was the first to actually pass, as far as I know.

Here's the thing Cap. You're making a personal value judgement here to determine what you think is "unusual" or not.

The fact there HAVE been other challenges to these laws suggests that:

1. These laws that were passed by other localities HAVE been controversial before this one.
2. There have been attempts to fight back against such laws before.

That this one is the first to actually pass does make the actual PASSAGE unusual. However, it does not make the opposition to such laws as unusual. And simply finally succeeding at something...be it NC passing it's law, or say the Massachusetts court legalizing gay marriage...doesn't mean it is inherently the "catalyst" for it being made a wedge issue.

Gay marriage, for instance, was a wedge issue long before Massachusett's court made it legal. Going by your stance, the Massachusetts would've been "unusual" as the first to SUCCEED at being overturned in the courts, and therefore would've been the "catalyst" for the wedge issue being present. But I'd say that would be a rather poor reading of the situation. Similarly here, trying to singularly put HB2 as the "catalyst" for transgender issues being used as a "wedge" issue is incorrect. Note, I'd say that pointing to the Charlotte law as the catalyst would also be incorrect. It's been being used as a wedge issue for some time now.

Even the way the reaction to HB2 has been done is an indication that the notion of it being a "wedge" issue is a little off. As egregious as some may see the bathroom issues as it relates to HB2, I've had a hard time understanding through this whole thing how THAT is the bigger issue related to that law compared to the fact that it has SEVERELY damaged the ability for individuals to take any form of legal discrimination action to the court system. That is a significant change that law made and a significant hampering of the standard procedures as it relates to civil rights recourse as we've come to know it in this country.

Yet the focus...from both sides...has primarily been about BATHROOMS from the very onset. Because BOTH sides see a situation where there's opportunity for pushing their social agendas in the ongoing culture wars. That's basically the definition of a wedge issue, where the focus is more on the most emotionally charged item of a situation that is most likely to demonize the other side and split support to one side or another, often at the exclusion of more relevant or significant issues that may have a less impactful segregation of the voting base.

I agree with you in terms of Caine's post. Blaming it singularly on the Charlotte law is as ridiculous as blaming it singularly on Conservatives. But I simply think neither of these were the "catalyst" for this current issue; the current issue is simply the latest incarnation of a generalized culture battle as it relates to these issues that's been going on for some time.
 
Back
Top Bottom