Is it wrong for a Christian to...

[Guy Incognito]

Let's start, at the beginning, with baptism. What do you believe is it's significance and where does the notion of baptizing infants come from?

I think that baptism carries a difference significance for Catholics than Protestants. From what I can tell, the Protestant sacrament of Baptism much more closely resembles the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation, which typically takes place around age 13 when a child is deemed to be aware enough to make a conscious decision to become a member of the faith.

Baptism, however, is a very important sacrament. If I remember correctly from my CCD lessons, baptism has the effect of cleansing the soul of original sin. Being baptized allows you to take part in the Church, it is the initiation. Baptism is also necessary to partake of the Eucharist, which is administered before Confirmation. This is the reason infant baptism is preferable to baptism later in life.

The tradition itself arose in a time when infant death was common place, and dying unbaptized was thought to mean there was no hope of heaven. For a long time the Church taught that innocent unbaptized babies went to Limbo after death. Nowadays the Church has moved away from this, and I find the argument that unbaptized babies will be saved by Baptism of Grace to be theologically convincing. (Baptism of Grace is a Catholic theological concept of a metaphorical baptism for those who have not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel but nevertheless desire to live a good life.) Officially, though, the Church has no position, but holds out "hope" for unbaptized babies. It is a place where reasonable Catholics can disagree.

Infant baptism is not mandatory, however, and the sacrament is administered to adult catechumens (converts). But it is not necessary that the person have attained moral maturity in order to be baptized.

 

[mertex]

Am non Catholic Christian but I carry a Medal of the Arch Angel Michael. I know this is a Catholic tradition but am not sure if this considered wrong in the eyes of theh Christian Church.

Currently in Afghanistan and the Chaplains are in other areas right now.

I'm a Bible believing Christian (Baptist) and I'll give you my opinion based on my study of the Bible. I've been in a year long study of the book of Isaiah (OT), and we just happen to be in Chapter 46, 47 and 48, where Isaiah is telling the Israelites what God has said and the prediction of what is going to happen to Babylon. One of the reasons that God is so angry with Babylon is due to their worship of idols.

Now, I don't know what you think of your medal, whether or not you are just wearing/carrying it as a good luck charm or whether you put any special belief that the medal can actually protect you.

Throughout the Old Testament and New Testament, Christians are told not to put their faith in idols. God wants us to put all our trust and faith in Him. When a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and asks him (through prayer) to come into their life, God seals that person with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit (God's/Jesus's spirit) is now residing within you to guide and protect you. Even the very 1st Commandment admonishes us not to have any gods before Him. And, actually, anything that robs God of Glory that is due Him, becomes our idol.

While there is no condemnation for carrying your medal around (especially if it was given to you by a loved one and it has sentimental value), the real problem comes when you put your trust in the medal, and start believing in your heart that it (the medal) is what is protecting you.

I have crosses all over my home, that have been given to me as gifts, and I have several gold crosses as necklaces, and there is nothing wrong with wearing them, because I know they are just jewelry - that reminds me that I am a Christian, but I don't put any stock on the fact that because I'm wearing the cross around my neck that the cross is in any way protecting me. Jesus alone can be trusted to protect and guide you when you become His, and all you have to do is pray to Him.

I hope that my comments are of some help to you.

 

[mertex]

I think that baptism carries a difference significance for Catholics than Protestants. From what I can tell, the Protestant sacrament of Baptism much more closely resembles the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation, which typically takes place around age 13 when a child is deemed to be aware enough to make a conscious decision to become a member of the faith.

Baptism, however, is a very important sacrament. If I remember correctly from my CCD lessons, baptism has the effect of cleansing the soul of original sin. Being baptized allows you to take part in the Church, in is the initiation. Baptism is also necessary to partake of the Eucharist, which is administered before Confirmation. This is the reason infant baptism is preferable to baptism later in life.

The tradition itself arose in a time when infant death was common place, and dying unbaptized was thought to mean there was no hope of heaven. For a long time the Church taught that innocent unbaptized babies went to Limbo after death. Nowadays the Church has moved away from this, and I find the argument that unbaptized babies will be saved by Baptism of Grace to be theologically convincing. (Baptism of Grace is a Catholic theological concept of a metaphorical baptism for those who have not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel but nevertheless desire to live a good life.) Officially, though, the Church has no position, but holds out "hope" for unbaptized babies. It is a place where reasonable Catholics can disagree.

Infant baptism is not mandatory, however, and the sacrament is administered to adult catechumens (converts). But it is not necessary that the person have attained moral maturity in order to be baptized.

I cannot speak for other religions, but as a Baptist, we do not believe that Baptism saves us. When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that is when a person receives eternal salvation. Baptism is just your public affirmation of that commitment that you have made to God done in front of other Christians, showing that you have died to your old self and have been born again (when you come up out of the water). That's where the expression born-again believers comes from.

Your sins are forgiven when in repentance of them, you ask Jesus to come into your life. We do not Baptize babies, we may have a Dedication ceremony, where they are presented to the congregation for their prayers for that baby. We believe that a child that dies before the age of knowledge of right and wrong (and it can be different for each child), that the child is automatically going to Heaven.

We do not believe in idols, why you don't see any statues or images of Jesus in a Baptist church.

 

[iamitter]

I was raised in a very religious catholic family. Around ten, I was like wait a second...
Parents made me go to church/sunday school every week until I was 18, though.

Reading the Bible and becoming knowledgeable about various religions was probably the biggest factor in me realizing that if there is a God, he would have nothing to do with these religions.
Becoming an atheist was a whole other, much longer story I won't bore you guys with.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I cannot speak for other religions, but as a Baptist, we do not believe that Baptism saves us. When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that is when a person receives eternal salvation. Baptism is just your public affirmation of that commitment that you have made to God done in front of other Christians, showing that you have died to your old self and have been born again (when you come up out of the water). That's where the expression born-again believers comes from.

Your sins are forgiven when in repentance of them, you ask Jesus to come into your life. We do not Baptize babies, we may have a Dedication ceremony, where they are presented to the congregation for their prayers for that baby. We believe that a child that dies before the age of knowledge of right and wrong (and it can be different for each child), that the child is automatically going to Heaven.

I think I am not fully explaining the Catholic view of baptism. Certainly it is not baptism that causes salvation according to Catholic doctrine. Rather, baptism prepares the soul for salvation. Baptism only cleanses the soul of original sin, it does not cleanse subsequent sins. That requires Confession and Penance. Baptism makes a blank slate, after that it is up to the child to choose the Church or not, and his salvation is dependent on his own free will.

The same preparation can be accomplished by a number of substituted means in place of literal baptism by water. Baptism by grace, as I mentioned above, is another way to achieve the same outcome as the traditional sacrament of Baptism.

We do not believe in idols, why you don't see any statues or images of Jesus in a Baptist church.

Yes, this has been an issue that has caused many Christians to break away from the Catholic Church ever since the Great Schism.
The Catholics, of course, are iconodoules (in Greek literally icon-slaves). But I think this is frequently misunderstood by the iconoclasts, the icon itself is not the subject of worship, merely representative. So long as the focus of the worship is God, the icons are simply decorative. That is, historically, the purpose of Catholic iconography. In a time when most people were illiterate, and Mass was given in the foreign language of Latin, the stained glass windows of cathedrals were often the only place commoners could access the stories of the Bible.

 

[mertex]

I think I am not fully explaining the Catholic view of baptism. Certainly it is not baptism that causes salvation according to Catholic doctrine. Rather, baptism prepares the soul for salvation. It makes a blank slate, after that it is up to the child to choose the Church or not, and his salvation is dependent on his own free will.

Perhaps some Catholics have the wrong message. There are Catholics in my family, and it is my understanding that they want to make sure a baby is baptized, because without baptism the child cannot go to heaven. Why there is a priest at hospitals to offer the last sacraments to people that are dying, and to babies that are in danger of dying.

The same preparation can be accomplished by a number of substituted means in place of literal baptism by water. Baptism by grace, as I mentioned above, is another way to achieve the same outcome as the traditional sacrament of Baptism.

I didn't know about this.

Yes, this has been an issue that has caused many Christians to break away from the Catholic Church ever since the Great Schism.
The Catholics, of course, are iconodoules (in Greek literally icon-slaves). But I think this is frequently misunderstood by the iconoclasts, the icon itself is not the subject of worship, merely representative. So long as the focus of the worship is God, the icons are simply decorative. That is, historically, the purpose of Catholic iconography. In a time when most people were illiterate, and Mass was given in the foreign language of Latin, the stained glass windows of cathedrals were often the only place commoners could access the stories of the Bible.

Perhaps that is the intent, that the icon itself is not the subject of worship, but I know many Catholics who treat their idols with the utmost reverence, kiss them and carry them around, and it would appear that they put a lot of faith in them. That's just my opinion, though.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Perhaps some Catholics have the wrong message. There are Catholics in my family, and it is my understanding that they want to make sure a baby is baptized, because without baptism the child cannot go to heaven. Why there is a priest at hospitals to offer the last sacraments to people that are dying, and to babies that are in danger of dying.

Well, it's more doctrinally accurate to say that we are uncertain if it is possible that baptized babies will go to heaven. Baptizing them is the best way to make sure the possibility is open to them.

Perhaps that is the intent, that the icon itself is not the subject of worship, but I know many Catholics who treat their idols with the utmost reverence, kiss them and carry them around, and it would appear that they put a lot of faith in them.

This goes back to the Catholic distinction between veneration and adoration. Veneration is something like respect. Catholics venerate or respect an crucifix the same way you or I would revere an American flag. American flags represent the blood of the American soldiers who died to give us our freedoms, just as crucifixes represent the blood of our savior. Both objects are thus worthy of respect on that basis. But veneration and respect are not worship. Worship or adoration is reserved for God, and is much deeper than mere veneration.

That's just my opinion, though.

It's all good:thumbs:

 

[X Factor]

I think that baptism carries a difference significance for Catholics than Protestants. From what I can tell, the Protestant sacrament of Baptism much more closely resembles the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation, which typically takes place around age 13 when a child is deemed to be aware enough to make a conscious decision to become a member of the faith.

Baptism, however, is a very important sacrament. If I remember correctly from my CCD lessons, baptism has the effect of cleansing the soul of original sin. Being baptized allows you to take part in the Church, it is the initiation. Baptism is also necessary to partake of the Eucharist, which is administered before Confirmation. This is the reason infant baptism is preferable to baptism later in life.

The tradition itself arose in a time when infant death was common place, and dying unbaptized was thought to mean there was no hope of heaven. For a long time the Church taught that innocent unbaptized babies went to Limbo after death. Nowadays the Church has moved away from this, and I find the argument that unbaptized babies will be saved by Baptism of Grace to be theologically convincing. (Baptism of Grace is a Catholic theological concept of a metaphorical baptism for those who have not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel but nevertheless desire to live a good life.) Officially, though, the Church has no position, but holds out "hope" for unbaptized babies. It is a place where reasonable Catholics can disagree.

Infant baptism is not mandatory, however, and the sacrament is administered to adult catechumens (converts). But it is not necessary that the person have attained moral maturity in order to be baptized.

Thanks Guy. I'd like to discuss this, and other things with you more thoroughly, but I'm going to wait until Mertex is done. My intent is not to make you feel defensive and I don't want it to feel like you're being piled on. Besides, it's late and this stuff takes concentration that I just don't have right now.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Thanks Guy. I'd like to discuss this, and other things with you more thoroughly, but I'm going to wait until Mertex is done. My intent is not to make you feel defensive and I don't want it to feel like you're being piled on. Besides, it's late and this stuff takes concentration that I just don't have right now.

No problem, I don't feel defensive at all. I understand that a lot of Catholic practice is distasteful to Protestants. That is what led to the Reformation, after all. But I think there is more common ground than differences, and much of the problem is misunderstanding on both sides. I admire much about Protestant theology, it is very pure.

I'll be around, so if you think up any question feel free to ask.

 

[celticwar17]

No problem, I don't feel defensive at all. I understand that a lot of Catholic practice is distasteful to Protestants. That is what led to the Reformation, after all. But I think there is more common ground than differences, and much of the problem is misunderstanding on both sides. I admire much about Protestant theology, it is very pure.

I'll be around, so if you think up any question feel free to ask.

I feel like some protestant's really don't realize that the catholic faith as everything really well thought out... i mean it's been through 2000 years of genius' dedicated to it's study of the bible; the Jesuit's, Catholic Apologist's, even a lot of priest's are all very intelligent people of the church.
There seems to be a lot of catholic's now-a-days that aren't very educated in their faith and just go to mass, fall asleep, sing a song, come back for Easter, and color in Sunday school.

 

[X Factor]

I feel like some protestant's really don't realize that the catholic faith as everything really well thought out... i mean it's been through 2000 years of genius' dedicated to it's study of the bible; the Jesuit's, Catholic Apologist's, even a lot of priest's are all very intelligent people of the church.
There seems to be a lot of catholic's now-a-days that aren't very educated in their faith and just go to mass, fall asleep, sing a song, come back for Easter, and color in Sunday school.

Can I say that there is that risk when things become very ritualized. It can lead to complacency and a believe that just engaging in the ritual is good enough. I mean that for all faiths. I'll use the Lord's Prayer as an example, we all know it and can recite it, but unless we really take time to contemplate it and understand it, what value is it really?

 

[Guy Incognito]

There seems to be a lot of catholic's now-a-days that aren't very educated in their faith and just go to mass, fall asleep, sing a song, come back for Easter, and color in Sunday school.

I agree, a lot of the reason Catholicism is misunderstood is that Catholics themselves aren't educated in the faith, instead they're just going through the motions.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Can I say that there is that risk when things become very ritualized. It can lead to complacency and a believe that just engaging in the ritual is good enough. I mean that for all faiths. I'll use the Lord's Prayer as an example, we all know it and can recite it, but unless we really take time to contemplate it and understand it, what value is it really?

There is certainly a danger of falling into complacency when one relies on ritual in place of rational thought. But I think there is also value in ritual as long as intelligent contemplation on faith does not fall by the wayside.

To continue with your example, the Lord's Prayer was dictated to us directly from Jesus. In this way it is different from any sort of prayer we could compose from our own imagination. The Lord's Prayer is, in that sense, a flawless formula, and worthy of repetition. I think there is something about the mere shape of the words in the Lord's Prayer, the feelings it evokes, etc. that is spiritually powerful in and of itself, perhaps on a subconscious level.

From our Catholic perspective, we do not believe in sola scriptura; we consider the living components of the Church, such as the formulae of prayers and sacraments to be holy in and of themselves. The Church itself is not a creation of men but a creation of God, just like the Bible. As such we consider the Church and its ritual to be as important a guide to our salvation as the scripture is.

Of course, you receive a far richer experience from real meditation on the meaning of the words. It is, of course, the obligation of the church to ensure that rituals do not become merely a crutch for the faithful.

 

[X Factor]

I'm sure you've heard this before, Guy, but what about this?

Matthew 6:5-8*(New King James Version)

The Model Prayer

***
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[a] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I'm sure you've heard this before, Guy, but what about this?

Matthew 6:5-8*(New King James Version)

The Model Prayer

***
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[a] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Well, just judging by what I know of the historical context, this seems like a different idea Jesus is talking about. In those days, pagan sacrifices were required by law, and was considered a civic obligation. It only mattered that you participated in the required ritual, not that you actually believed it in your heart at all. So it was perfectly acceptable for a pagan to be an atheist if he just went through the required pagan rituals.

This is not the Catholic way. Obviously one is not going to be pondering the fortieth Our Father in penance, but the faith is there nonetheless. The purpose of ritual penance is purification through a difficult task, that is desirable in and of itself to purge the soul. So rote repetition of the Lord's Prayer is accomplishing another goal. Similarly, the repetitive nature of the Rosary creates almost trancelike states of prayer that allow for a deeper connection with God to develop from the ritual itself, not merely reflection on the meaning but the other dimensions of community, tradition and faith.

So, even if occasionally the meaning gets forgotten, it is never wholly forgotten, it's always in our hearts if not our minds. I think having calm meditation alone, absent the structure of ritual and Ecclesia, would be missing something. Meditation and reason are great, but the rituals connect us with God in a very visceral way.

 

[mertex]

Well, it's more doctrinally accurate to say that we are uncertain if it is possible that baptized babies will go to heaven. Baptizing them is the best way to make sure the possibility is open to them.

It is true there is no reference in the Bible as to the destination of a baby that dies, but all of God's attributes clearly displayed in the Bible gives us assurance that an innocent baby, whether baptized or not, who has no idea what salvation, sin, Jesus, heaven, etc., is, would not end up in hell. There is also no reference in the Bible that Baptism would assure us of heaven, neither for babies nor for adults.

This goes back to the Catholic distinction between veneration and adoration. Veneration is something like respect. Catholics venerate or respect an crucifix the same way you or I would revere an American flag. American flags represent the blood of the American soldiers who died to give us our freedoms, just as crucifixes represent the blood of our savior. Both objects are thus worthy of respect on that basis. But veneration and respect are not worship. Worship or adoration is reserved for God, and is much deeper than mere veneration.

There is a very thin line separating veneration/adoration. It would be safer to just put our faith in the invisible God and follow his command:


New International Version (©1984)Exodus 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

It's all good:thumbs:

Amen to that!

 

[celticwar17]

Well, just judging by what I know of the historical context, this seems like a different idea Jesus is talking about. In those days, pagan sacrifices were required by law, and was considered a civic obligation. It only mattered that you participated in the required ritual, not that you actually believed it in your heart at all. So it was perfectly acceptable for a pagan to be an atheist if he just went through the required pagan rituals.

This is not the Catholic way. Obviously one is not going to be pondering the fortieth Our Father in penance, but the faith is there nonetheless. The purpose of ritual penance is purification through a difficult task, that is desirable in and of itself to purge the soul. So rote repetition of the Lord's Prayer is accomplishing another goal. Similarly, the repetitive nature of the Rosary creates almost trancelike states of prayer that allow for a deeper connection with God to develop from the ritual itself, not merely reflection on the meaning but the other dimensions of community, tradition and faith.

So, even if occasionally the meaning gets forgotten, it is never wholly forgotten, it's always in our hearts if not our minds. I think having calm meditation alone, absent the structure of ritual and Ecclesia, would be missing something. Meditation and reason are great, but the rituals connect us with God in a very visceral way.

This is not something only catholics respect either, a lot of eastern religion's do as well and i think they make their own spiritual connections in their own way outside of of the Christian society, or like a "Baptism by Grace" to you.
This is definitely common ground.