• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is it ok for Dr's to lie to patients to prevent an abortion?

Is it ok for Dr's to lie to patients to prevent an abortion?

  • Yes...

    Votes: 4 8.2%

  • No...

    Votes: 45 91.8%
  • Total voters
    49
The problem with "pro-autonomy" or "pro-choice" is that while strongly anti-abortion, I value autonomy and choice - personal liberty - very highly. Point in fact, I think my support for human liberty and equality informs my decision to oppose abortion, just as it informs my opposition to many other things I wish to be criminal (and in most cases, are).

I think we as a people show our support for human liberty by creating a government that protects our rights with the force of law. And while I value autonomy, I don't think all choices and all actions should be permitted. I think that should be evident enough. I think you guys know we feel that way.


Essentially it breaks down like this. Yeah, I know most of you folks want laws against other instances of aggressive homicide. I know you're not anarchists, or at least, I can infer that demographically, most of you cannot be.

What I don't get is why you folks seem to think we somehow oppose choice and autonomy when you know that we think of abortion as no different than any other aggressive homicide - a violation of the rights of an individual human being.

Which makes it something we want the law to prevent / punish. Just like any other.
 
Last edited:
JayDubya said:
The problem with "pro-autonomy" or "pro-choice" is that while strongly anti-abortion, I value autonomy and choice - personal liberty - very highly. Point in fact, I think my support for human liberty and equality informs my decision to oppose abortion, just as it informs my opposition to many other things I wish to be criminal (and in most cases, are).

I think we as a people show our support for human liberty by creating a government that protects our rights with the force of law. And while I value autonomy, I don't think all choices and all actions should be permitted. I think that should be evident enough. I think you guys know we feel that way.


Essentially it breaks down like this. Yeah, I know most of you folks want laws against other instances of aggressive homicide. I know you're not anarchists. What I don't get is why you folks seem to think we somehow oppose choice and autonomy when you know that we think of abortion as no different than any other aggressive homicide - a violation of the rights of an individual human being.

Which makes it something we want the law to prevent / punish. Just like any other.
Click to expand...

Well i can only answer for me not speak for other prochoice people.

1.) There is no logical dots that I can connect and equate a person murdering their neighbor to a mother having an abortion.
2,) any rational I hear to force dots between the two are usually made up on personal religions, beliefs or opinions and no facts. While I RESPECT the right for people to have these opinions and some of them I even SHARE without sound support I can make it law or murder and force these opinions on others.
3.) I feel the government is doing its job and protecting those that are pro choice from having their current freedom and rights violated.
4.) its definitely prochoice and not proabortion because again I can only speak for myself and guess for the rest if there was a logical way to end abortion or to wave a magic wand and no longer have a need for it I dont know anybody that wouldnt do so. SO most people are not PROabortion.
 
JayDubya said:
The problem with "pro-autonomy" or "pro-choice" is that while strongly anti-abortion, I value autonomy and choice - personal liberty - very highly. Point in fact, I think my support for human liberty and equality informs my decision to oppose abortion, just as it informs my opposition to many other things I wish to be criminal (and in most cases, are).

I think we as a people show our support for human liberty by creating a government that protects our rights with the force of law. And while I value autonomy, I don't think all choices and all actions should be permitted. I think that should be evident enough. I think you guys know we feel that way.


Essentially it breaks down like this. Yeah, I know most of you folks want laws against other instances of aggressive homicide. I know you're not anarchists. What I don't get is why you folks seem to think we somehow oppose choice and autonomy when you know that we think of abortion as no different than any other aggressive homicide - a violation of the rights of an individual human being.

Which makes it something we want the law to prevent / punish. Just like any other.
Click to expand...

A rational message from you - I mean that as a compliment.

Your message is, in a sense, pure prolife philosophy. (I use "prolife" instead of anti-abortion, which I believe more accurate) to be respectful.

The problem tends to come from that stance tends to come from people referring to women as "sluts," "murderers," "killers," and other judgmental words beyond the issue itself (the later even towards those supporting pro-choice). Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, rather is pro to keeping abortions legal except where some of us draw a line on that. Around here, we are more often sheltering a woman and preventing people in-her-face who are pressuring her TO abort, not pressuring her to not abort - though that happens too.

Where ProLife doctrine/premises differs from other "murder" questions - particularly now with MAPs opposed for rape victims and increasingly even hormonal birth control - is that the overwhelming majority of Americans Do believe in MAPs for rape victims and even more in hormonal birth control - which they/we not only support being fully legal but even WANT women who don't want another child (at this time) to use birth control pills/patches/injections - unless medical or philosophical/religion reasons not to.

Personally, I believe if a state outlawed doctors and pharmacies from issuing birth control pills/patches/injections, abortions in that state would skyrocket - whether abortion is legal or not.

The CORE dispute between ProLife and ProChoice is, as you note, whether terminating a fertilized egg or ZEF along the way is "killing a human baby" and wrongfully so. I believe this is clearly a moral and ideological OR religious issue, not a scientific fact question.

Finally, MOST ProLifers DO make exceptions for MAPs, rape victims, incest etc. Some only opposite after 20 weeks or so. On the other hand, MOST ProChoice does oppose abortion in the instance of partial-birth abortion, late term abortion etc except for the life of the mother, and MOST Pro-Choice believe if a woman is going to abort she needs to do so early in the pregnancy. That makes it different as a "murder" question than terrorists, serial killers, suicide bombers etc for which essentially everyone agrees is a "murderer."

Remember, until the US Supreme Court overturned it, thru the 1960s some states made ALL birth control and contraceptives, condoms included, criminally illegal. The reason? It 1.) "wrongly denied human life, 2.) that is the price of sex and/or 3.) this is God's will. There are still people such as Santorum who believes so, openly condemns that Supreme Court decision, and wishes states could reinstitute such laws - and millions of people support him.

But is that really something the government can impose because a religious group captures some government office? Or is using a condom none-of-the-government's business or legitimate power - even if the "logic" given is non-religion, ie condoms stop and deny human life?

In short, what it means to be ProLife or ProChoice is not two universal definitions meaning the same to everyone. Most people see gray areas in the middle - and will allow the woman the decision or allow a probition somewhere in that middle ground.
 
Last edited:
I prefer the term "pro choice" as well....it should not be up to the govt, or some religious leaders, to make decisions for the woman.
If it gets put to a vote, women get a full vote, and men get half a vote.....
 
UtahBill said:
I prefer the term "pro choice" as well....it should not be up to the govt, or some religious leaders, to make decisions for the woman.
If it gets put to a vote, women get a full vote, and men get half a vote.....
Click to expand...

of course and if its a prochoice vs proabortion, pro choice is the only one accurate
 
Ikari said:
I assume you make a joke.
Click to expand...

no joke at all

if we are labeling those that are for the current abortions laws and the only two choices are pro-choice or pro-abortion, prochoice is clearly more accurate :shrug:
 
JayDubya said:
Honestly, I prefer pro-abortion and anti-abortion. They are accurate terms,.
Click to expand...

They are not accurate terms.
Pro-choice people also support the right of a woman to carry her pregnancy to full term.
We want the woman to have a choice.
If the government wanted to mandate that all women whose child would be deformed should be aborted I know I would fight for the right for her to have that child even it were going to so malformed that it would only live a few minutes or hours.
The woman should also have the right to give her child up for adoption if she feels that is best for her and her child.

On the other side of the coin if she choses to have an abortion early in the pregnancy that should be her choice also.
We do not know all there is to know about the woman's health , her state of mind, her emotions, her financial status, or her ability to care for a child.
 
joko104 said:
A rational message from you - I mean that as a compliment.

Your message is, in a sense, pure prolife philosophy. (I use "prolife" instead of anti-abortion, which I believe more accurate) to be respectful.
Click to expand...

But many people who are pro-life do not support the consistent life ethic. And the name implies that you folks do not support life. I do not think that is true.

I think you are sadly ignorant of what constitutes life, and you've been sold a bill of fare with much aplomb, that life does not begin until birth, and that is complete rubbish. Actually, not true. I think some among your camp - in general - understand this, yet maliciously continue to spread disinformation to further a political end, whether that be environmental, or cynical identity politics, or what have you...

The problem tends to come from that stance tends to come from people referring to women as "sluts," "murderers," "killers," and other judgmental words beyond the issue itself (the later even towards those supporting pro-choice). Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, rather is pro to keeping abortions legal except where some of us draw a line on that. Around here, we are more often sheltering a woman and preventing people in-her-face who are pressuring her TO abort, not pressuring her to not abort - though that happens too.
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with having sex. You won't see me calling anyone a slut for simply having sex, and no, pregnancy is not a punishment.

I will not refrain, however, from calling killers what they are. Mothers who actually go through with killing their offspring have unquestionably engaged in premeditated aggressive homicide. The abortionist is a hired agent, and all of the support staff are accessory to the action. I believe they all have demonstrated a complete lack of respect for the rights of other human beings and represent a danger to society. All should be locked up in prison for a very long time.
 
JayDubya said:
But many people who are pro-life do not support the consistent life ethic. And the name implies that you folks do not support life. I do not think that is true.

I think you are sadly ignorant of what constitutes life, and you've been sold a bill of fare with much aplomb, that life does not begin until birth, and that is complete rubbish. Actually, not true. I think some among your camp - in general - understand this, yet maliciously continue to spread disinformation to further a political end, whether that be environmental, or cynical identity politics, or what have you...



There's nothing wrong with having sex. You won't see me calling anyone a slut for simply having sex, and no, pregnancy is not a punishment.

I will not refrain, however, from calling killers what they are. Mothers who actually go through with killing their offspring have unquestionably engaged in premeditated aggressive homicide. The abortionist is a hired agent, and all of the support staff are accessory to the action. I believe they all have demonstrated a complete lack of respect for the rights of other human beings and represent a danger to society. All should be locked up in prison for a very long time.
Click to expand...

I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what most pro choice people believe...I would say that most pro choice people don't approve or condone late term abortions, unless the mother is at high risk. I know I believe, based on what I have read, that a fetus becomes viable around 20 weeks...most articles say at 24 works, in an emergency, if the fetus were removed it would have a 50/50 shot at survival...I don't think you can make such a cut and dry determination of what pro choice people think...
 
Objective-J said:
no joke at all

if we are labeling those that are for the current abortions laws and the only two choices are pro-choice or pro-abortion, prochoice is clearly more accurate :shrug:
Click to expand...

Both are synonymous terms.So pro-abortion is just as correct as pro-choice.
Pro-abortion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

: favoring the legalization of abortion

Pro-choice - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: favoring the legalization of abortion
 
jamesrage said:
Both are synonymous terms.So pro-abortion is just as correct as pro-choice.
Pro-abortion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

: favoring the legalization of abortion

Pro-choice - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: favoring the legalization of abortion
Click to expand...

So? Florida law defines a fetus as a "fetus" (only) and not a baby, human or person. Therefore, you MUST agree that a fetus is ONLY a "fetus" because that is the literal legal definition. Thus, at least in Florida, every message you have posted claiming a ZEF is a human, person, child or baby is 100% totally false and you should admit it.
 
JasonI said:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what most pro choice people believe...I would say that most pro choice people don't approve or condone late term abortions, unless the mother is at high risk. I know I believe, based on what I have read, that a fetus becomes viable around 20 weeks...most articles say at 24 works, in an emergency, if the fetus were removed it would have a 50/50 shot at survival...I don't think you can make such a cut and dry determination of what pro choice people think...
Click to expand...
I agree.
Abortions are legal during the first trimester.
During the second trimester some states allow legal abortions up to 19 weeks gestation .
There are very few abortions that are legal after 19 weeks gestation.
Third trimester abortions are essentially eliminated except in extreme cases such as the mother's life is in danger (ie: ecampsia, HELLP syndrome) or when the fetus is so malformed it will be stillborn/only live a few minutes or hours.
 
JayDubya said:
The problem with "pro-autonomy" or "pro-choice" is that while strongly anti-abortion, I value autonomy and choice - personal liberty - very highly. Point in fact, I think my support for human liberty and equality informs my decision to oppose abortion, just as it informs my opposition to many other things I wish to be criminal (and in most cases, are).

I think we as a people show our support for human liberty by creating a government that protects our rights with the force of law. And while I value autonomy, I don't think all choices and all actions should be permitted. I think that should be evident enough. I think you guys know we feel that way.


Essentially it breaks down like this. Yeah, I know most of you folks want laws against other instances of aggressive homicide. I know you're not anarchists, or at least, I can infer that demographically, most of you cannot be.

What I don't get is why you folks seem to think we somehow oppose choice and autonomy when you know that we think of abortion as no different than any other aggressive homicide - a violation of the rights of an individual human being.

Which makes it something we want the law to prevent / punish. Just like any other.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry, but even though you may value your autonomy and personal liberty and perhaps that of prepubescent girls and postmenopausal women along with that of boys and men, you clearly have no respect for the autonomy and personal liberty of girls and women who are capable of getting pregnant. In fact, you are so disrespectful of their autonomy and personal liberty that you do not even acknowledge that your over-valuation of ZEFs causes you to advocate one of the most extreme violations of their autonomy and personal liberty I can think of. You are so disrespectful of them that you cannot even understand why others do not agree with you. Once implanted and until viable, an EF does not have its own life - it is living inside the mother and in biological attachment to her because it cannot continue to live without doing so. If she dies, it will die, but if it dies, she will not. That is evidence that the only life involved is hers. At viability, the F has the capacity to live outside and in detachment from the woman if removed from her body - that is, it has the potential to live like an actual human being or person. That is why the SC respected the point of viability. But you are so incapable of respecting girls and women that you do not even acknowledge that all of the life of the implanted, previable EF is flowing from the woman to the EF: she is keeping it alive. If she wants to stop doing so, she certainly has the right to - it is her own life.
 
MaggieD said:
ProAbortion is perjorative.

ProChoice people are not pro-abortion.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
I have never met anyone who is pro-abotion but I have met many who are pro-choice.
 
choiceone said:
I'm sorry, but even though you may value your autonomy and personal liberty and perhaps that of prepubescent girls and postmenopausal women along with that of boys and men, you clearly have no respect for the autonomy and personal liberty of girls and women who are capable of getting pregnant.
Click to expand...

Complete horse****, as I don't play that kind of divisive identity politics, but do continue.

In fact, you are so disrespectful of their autonomy and personal liberty that you do not even acknowledge that your over-valuation of ZEFs causes you to advocate one of the most extreme violations of their autonomy and personal liberty I can think of.
Click to expand...

My "over-valuation" is that all humans are created equal, endowed with certain unalienable rights, and among those rights is life...

In other words I value humanity as I value equality, which means I place all humans as equal. You minimize a human being through restrictive personhood.

To take such a reprehensible stance, you would of course have no respect for humanity or equality.

You are so disrespectful of them that you cannot even understand why others do not agree with you. Once implanted and until viable, an EF does not have its own life - it is living inside the mother and in biological attachment to her because it cannot continue to live without doing so.
Click to expand...

You are either so ignorant of basic fact or so deceitful that you even deny that a living organism is alive because it is dependent upon its mother. Many young organisms in many species are dependent upon their mother. All sexually reproducing organisms are alive from the point of fusion of the two gamete cells.

If she wants to stop doing so, she certainly has the right to - it is her own life.
Click to expand...

Sorry, this is complete nonsense. Two humans, two bodies, two lives. Dependency does not undermine existence.
 
Last edited:
While abortion is reprehensible, so is lying to your patients.
 
any doctor who knowningly lies to his patient, should be suspended.

if he does it again, have his license revoked.
 
JayDubya said:
Complete horse****, as I don't play that kind of divisive identity politics, but do continue.



My "over-valuation" is that all humans are created equal, endowed with certain unalienable rights, and among those rights is life...

In other words I value humanity as I value equality, which means I place all humans as equal. You minimize a human being through restrictive personhood.

To take such a reprehensible stance, you would of course have no respect for humanity or equality.



You are either so ignorant of basic fact or so deceitful that you even deny that a living organism is alive because it is dependent upon its mother. Many young organisms in many species are dependent upon their mother. All sexually reproducing organisms are alive from the point of fusion of the two gamete cells.



Sorry, this is complete nonsense. Two humans, two bodies, two lives. Dependency does not undermine existence.
Click to expand...

No one has the right to live inside a person's body without that person's consent, and no one has the right to use a person's body as life-support. You are trying to give embryos and fetuses more rights than born persons. They do not have it. You probably dislike that because you do not want to have to feel gratitude to your own mother for giving you life, but she did. Honey, God may be able to do it alone, but so far, that has not been proved.
 
JayDubya said:
Complete horse****, as I don't play that kind of divisive identity politics, but do continue.



My "over-valuation" is that all humans are created equal, endowed with certain unalienable rights, and among those rights is life...

In other words I value humanity as I value equality, which means I place all humans as equal. You minimize a human being through restrictive personhood.

To take such a reprehensible stance, you would of course have no respect for humanity or equality.



You are either so ignorant of basic fact or so deceitful that you even deny that a living organism is alive because it is dependent upon its mother. Many young organisms in many species are dependent upon their mother. All sexually reproducing organisms are alive from the point of fusion of the two gamete cells.



Sorry, this is complete nonsense. Two humans, two bodies, two lives. Dependency does not undermine existence.
Click to expand...

Why are you ever civil to anyone LOL I have yet to see it.

Anyway this is where your logic will always fail. The bolded are not equal.
 
Objective-J said:
Why are you ever civil to anyone LOL I have yet to see it.

Anyway this is where your logic will always fail. The bolded are not equal.
Click to expand...

OJ, still playing with what's his name...Jay...something or another? I have to hand it to you. You do have a lot of tolerance for people who have social interaction issues.
 
Objective-J said:
no joke at all

if we are labeling those that are for the current abortions laws and the only two choices are pro-choice or pro-abortion, prochoice is clearly more accurate :shrug:
Click to expand...

How so? Less it's one of those dumb arguments like "pro-life people support the death penalty" mantra.
 
choiceone said:
You are trying to give embryos and fetuses more rights than born persons. They do not have it.
Click to expand...

Nope. The same rights. Like the right to life.

And I'm not trying to give anything. The right to life is inherent to all humans from the time they are first created. What I want is for that right to be protected by law.

You probably dislike that because you do not want to have to feel gratitude to your own mother for giving you life, but she did. Honey, God may be able to do it alone, but so far, that has not been proved.
Click to expand...

Mom was advised to kill me, actually, and she promptly changed OB-GYNs, with prejudice. Thanks, Mom.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom