Is it ok for Dr's to lie to patients to prevent an abortion?

[AGENT J]

How so? Less it's one of those dumb arguments like "pro-life people support the death penalty" mantra.

I have no idea what you are talking about?

Im talking labeling people that are in favor of the current abortion laws.

if they are going to be labeled and the only two choices are pro-abortion or pro-choice, pro-choice is more accurate by far.

I think you misunderstood, pro-life isnt even in my discussion. LMAO

 

[AGENT J]

OJ, still playing with what's his name...Jay...something or another? I have to hand it to you. You do have a lot of tolerance for people who have social interaction issues.

LMAO well its funny when somebody isnt interested in facts, reality, logic, common sense, honesty or being civil because typically they just make themselves look foolish and it takes little to no work on my part.

no matter how emotionally unhinged people get on here, especially when they are getting embarrassed, I dont care, its a message board, no need to break your keyboard over things LOL

 

[AGENT J]

Nope. The same rights. Like the right to life.

And I'm not trying to give anything. The right to life is inherent to all humans from the time they are first created. What I want is for that right to be protected by law.

in reality it will NEVER be the same rights LMAO
one needs the other to live, you are in fact trying to give one MORE rights because they can not be equal by default if you give the ZEF rights it will have MORE rights because it will be able to control the other. theres nothing honestly equal about that at all LMAO

once again you are being dishonesty who simply dont realize you are wrong, pick one :Shrug:

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I thought about this for a while. . . and came ot this conclusion.

I don't want any DR LYING to me because of what they think I might do in response.

Dr's get in trouble for misinforming and lying - not the other way around.

 

[AGENT J]

I thought about this for a while. . . and came ot this conclusion.

I don't want any DR LYING to me because of what they think I might do in response.

Dr's get in trouble for misinforming and lying - not the other way around.

exactly, their personal belief's, morals or religions have absolutely positively no business in the their medical decisions.

Only their medical and scientific education and morals. Nothing else.

The information they obtain about me is MINE, i own it and they have zero right to withhold it.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Yes - no one's forcing them to perform abortions. :shrug:

 

[AGENT J]

Yes - no one's forcing them to perform abortions. :shrug:

agreed but I also think thier is a grey area, if dr. has some type of personal hang ups doing something then they have 2 very clear options and thats its.

Dont work in the medical field OR pick a subfield that will allow your personal hangs ups to not interfere

for example if you wont perform an abortion you have no business being an ER doctor / surgeon.

 

[choiceone]

Nope. The same rights. Like the right to life.

And I'm not trying to give anything. The right to life is inherent to all humans from the time they are first created. What I want is for that right to be protected by law.

The embryo/fetus that has the same right to life as the woman can only exercise that right by being detached and removed from her body. When you can detach and remove it without abortion and keep it alive with artificial help from other people, then we can talk about equality. As long as it is inside the woman's body and using it for biological life-support without her consent, it is doing something that we do not allow anyone else to do. That is claiming it has more rights than she does.

Mom was advised to kill me, actually, and she promptly changed OB-GYNs, with prejudice. Thanks, Mom.

Wow. No one should have given such advice, and I, as a pro-choice person, would not do that. Others should not try to "persuade" women: they should make their own choices. Your mom was quite right. See how nicely choice turned out for you? I'm glad you show her gratitude.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

agreed but I also think thier is a grey area, if dr. has some type of personal hang ups doing something then they have 2 very clear options and thats its.

Dont work in the medical field OR pick a subfield that will allow your personal hangs ups to not interfere

for example if you wont perform an abortion you have no business being an ER doctor / surgeon.

I fully get the concern - but if a dr has that much of an issue why'd they become an OBGYN? At some point this choice would have to be made purely for nothing but medical concerns - would they be unable to function then?

Giving any DR a reason to lie to a patient is just opening the door to a medical world I don't want to be a part of. The idea is unnerving: what if someone has terminal cancer and will likely commit suicide? would a Dr who has religious qualms with a potentially suicidal patient be permitted to lie to save that patients 'soul' ?

 

[AGENT J]

I fully get the concern - but if a dr has that much of an issue why'd they become an OBGYN? At some point this choice would have to be made purely for nothing but medical concerns - would they be unable to function then?

Giving any DR a reason to lie to a patient is just opening the door to a medical world I don't want to be a part of. The idea is unnerving: what if someone has terminal cancer and will likely commit suicide? would a Dr who has religious qualms with a potentially suicidal patient be permitted to lie to save that patients 'soul' ?

oh I agree totally i was talking merely from a decision standpoint on the doctors end, the decision if he wants to work in that field and play by the rules or not. If he breaks those rules he gets punished and punished well!

He has no right to lie at all.

 

[JayDubya]

The embryo/fetus that has the same right to life as the woman can only exercise that right by being detached and removed from her body.

Nope. They exercise it by living. When we naturally die, there is no more "us" with a right to life, and no actor to blame for that death. When we die because someone kills us, that violates our right to life, and there is a moral actor or actors directly to blame for that violation.

If your mother pays someone to rip you out of her womb while you are still dependent on that environment for your life, you have been killed in direct violation of your rights. You certainly didn't ask to be created. You are not a tresspasser, nor a parasite. You are a living human being, her progeny, that she created, in almost all cases, through deliberate action.

When you can detach and remove it without abortion and keep it alive with artificial help from other people, then we can talk about equality. As long as it is inside the woman's body and using it for biological life-support without her consent, it is doing something that we do not allow anyone else to do. That is claiming it has more rights than she does.

Disagreed. I see nothing in this arrangement that equals more rights. Refrain from harming or killing is all that is asked, no different than the requirement to refrain from harming or killing anyone else.

 

[JayDubya]

I fully get the concern - but if a dr has that much of an issue why'd they become an OBGYN? At some point this choice would have to be made purely for nothing but medical concerns - would they be unable to function then?

There are many OB-GYNs who want nothing to do with abortion. They care about mother and child - they have two patients and want to see both healthy. They want to help an expectant mother attach to their offspring, prepare for the event of labor, make sure she knows what behavior is helpful, harmful, or neither for her kid, and to assist with any complications that arise, like if a C-section is needed...

These are ethical, skilled folks. They're good doctors. The idea that they shouldn't be allowed to practice because they value their oaths and won't kill for money, as some have suggested here - not saying you - is preposterous.

 

[Dustinnnnn]

There are many OB-GYNs who want nothing to do with abortion. They care about mother and child - they have two patients and want to see both healthy. They want to help an expectant mother attach to their offspring, prepare for the event of labor, make sure she knows what behavior is helpful, harmful, or neither for her kid, and to assist with any complications that arise, like if a C-section is needed...

These are ethical, skilled folks. They're good doctors. The idea that they shouldn't be allowed to practice because they value their oaths and won't kill for money, as some have suggested here - not saying you - is preposterous.

Doctors should operate under a "we report, you decide" basis. Withholding an option (abortion) from the mother that could potentially save a breathing human is absurd. Whether that doctor wants to perform the procedure or not (and I believe if they are a doctor they should have no hang-ups in regard to this situation, they are ultimately doing what is in their medical expertise, the best viable option to save a breathing human, and should do so without regard to personal beliefs.) he has a duty to report that option. Another doctor could perform the procedure if need be.

I'm not sure where the confusion lies here. If you were pregnant and had complications that could potentially kill you if you give birth, would you not want to know all of the options and then decide for yourself?

 

[Removable Mind]

There are many OB-GYNs who want nothing to do with abortion. They care about mother and child -

Then such a doctor should have no problem being upfront, honest with a pregnant woman.


OB-GYNs, or the like, who are anti-abortion, who are anti-open disclosure, when taking on new patients, should have the mandatory requirement to sign a "Declaration of Financial Responsibility" for the birth and lifetime expenses of the child up to the age of 18.

Also a "Declaration of Financial Responsibility" should signed by the Doc if the mother die from complications or incur a long-term health or short-term issues:

If death occurs, then the Doc will pay to that woman's family (parents - husband - other children) the potential sum of her lifetime earnings PLUS emotion suffering awards for the family members.

If a woman is debilitated, then the same lifetime amount of potential lost earnings PLUS all medical expenses necessary to maintain the highest quality of life possible PLUS emotion suffering awards.

If a woman sustains any type of short-term medical injuries then the Doc will be responsible for all medical costs and lost potential wages while she recovers PLUS emotion suffering awards.

IF THE CHILD SURVIVES...the Doc gets the pleasure of providing financial support to whoever is responsible for raising that child.

You see any problems with the above? You shouldn't.

 

[AGENT J]

Doctors should operate under a "we report, you decide" basis. Withholding an option (abortion) from the mother that could potentially save a breathing human is absurd. Whether that doctor wants to perform the procedure or not (and I believe if they are a doctor they should have no hang-ups in regard to this situation, they are ultimately doing what is in their medical expertise, the best viable option to save a breathing human, and should do so without regard to personal beliefs.) he has a duty to report that option. Another doctor could perform the procedure if need be.

I'm not sure where the confusion lies here. If you were pregnant and had complications that could potentially kill you if you give birth, would you not want to know all of the options and then decide for yourself?

this type of common sense will be ignored and can NOT be logically refuted. Just like other posts like it. The probalem is these people dont care about your current rights and freedoms or your morals or you religion or your opinions.

<start sarcasm>
the only thing that matters to them is THEIR OWN OPINIONS and they want those forced on you. Its very civil, american, logica, rations and unselfish.
<end sarcasm>

 

[choiceone]

If your mother pays someone to rip you out of her womb while you are still dependent on that environment for your life, you have been killed in direct violation of your rights. You certainly didn't ask to be created. You are not a tresspasser, nor a parasite. You are a living human being, her progeny, that she created, in almost all cases, through deliberate action.

A woman who used birth control did not "create" anything by deliberate action, nor did a woman who was raped. It is beyond morally and ethically disgusting to suggest that any woman "created" an embryo whose genetic code is a statement that the woman and her rapist are one flesh. It is slander if oral and libel if written.

 

[JayDubya]

A woman who used birth control did not "create" anything by deliberate action

Completely false.

The heterosexual vaginal sex was a deliberate action with well-known possible consequences... again, in essentially all cases.

nor did a woman who was raped.

Yes, that would be the rare exception to the above.

It is beyond morally and ethically disgusting to suggest that any woman "created" an embryo whose genetic code is a statement that the woman and her rapist are one flesh. It is slander if oral and libel if written.

I don't even know what the hell you're on about now...

I assume you're accusing me of something.

 

[Peter King]

any doctor who knowningly lies to his patient, should be suspended.

if he does it again, have his license revoked.

You are right, lying doctors do not deserve to be licensed to work as doctors.

 

[choiceone]

Completely false.

The heterosexual vaginal sex was a deliberate action with well-known possible consequences... again, in essentially all cases.



Yes, that would be the rare exception to the above.



I don't even know what the hell you're on about now...

I assume you're accusing me of something.

Yes. You said, "You are a living human being, her progeny, that she created, in almost all cases, through deliberate action," and, in context, you were implying that all embryos and fetuses are created by the women pregnant with them, even though you were also implying that, in a few cases, the women created them without taking deliberate action. Now, in this case, you are accusing women of creating progeny of rapists. For many of those rape victims who choose abortion rather than continuing the pregnancy, it is an insufferable insult not just to be pregnant with those embryos and fetuses, but to be falsely accused of having anything to do with creating them. You owe every one of them an apology.

 

[JayDubya]

Yes. You said, "You are a living human being, her progeny, that she created, in almost all cases, through deliberate action," and, in context, you were implying that all embryos and fetuses are created by the women pregnant with them, even though you were also implying that, in a few cases, the women created them without taking deliberate action.

Right. Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of the time, the mother creates her progeny through voluntary and deliberate heterosexual vaginal intercourse. So in almost all cases, both parents are directly responsible for the life they create. They engaged knowingly in a behavior with obvious potential consequence, no matter what type or how many methods of contraception are employed...

Now, in this case, you are accusing women of creating progeny of rapists.

Please refrain from lying.

If your mother pays someone to rip you out of her womb while you are still dependent on that environment for your life, you have been killed in direct violation of your rights. You certainly didn't ask to be created. You are not a tresspasser, nor a parasite. You are a living human being, her progeny, that she created, in almost all cases, through deliberate action.

Rape pregnancies are an outlier that you pro-abortion types focus on rhetorically because you want to argue from a point of maximum emotion. Well sorry, I won't let you. They represent a fraction of a percent. That is a statistically insignificant event. It is entirely possible that your emotion filled rants would be successful in achieving an unwarranted legal exception anyway.

For many of those rape victims who choose abortion rather than continuing the pregnancy, it is an insufferable insult not just to be pregnant with those embryos and fetuses, but to be falsely accused of having anything to do with creating them. You owe every one of them an apology.

No, you owe me an apology for lying.

And I owe you no sort of explanation or apology for giving you a perfectly rational argument against abortion that doesn't apply to a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all cases (especially when I even gave the caveat that it doesn't apply to a few folks at the time I gave it)... you just focus on the corner cases because you haven't the rhetorical strength to counter it.

 

[choiceone]

Right. Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of the time, the mother creates her progeny through voluntary and deliberate heterosexual vaginal intercourse. So in almost all cases, both parents are directly responsible for the life they create. They engaged knowingly in a behavior with obvious potential consequence, no matter what type or how many methods of contraception are employed...



Please refrain from lying.



Rape pregnancies are an outlier that you pro-abortion types focus on rhetorically because you want to argue from a point of maximum emotion. Well sorry, I won't let you. They represent a fraction of a percent. That is a statistically insignificant event. It is entirely possible that your emotion filled rants would be successful in achieving an unwarranted legal exception anyway.



No, you owe me an apology for lying.

And I owe you no sort of explanation or apology for giving you a perfectly rational argument against abortion that doesn't apply to a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all cases (especially when I even gave the caveat that it doesn't apply to a few folks at the time I gave it)... you just focus on the corner cases because you haven't the rhetorical strength to counter it.

Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum, do I smell a guilty conscience. Pretty low, right? Picking on rape victims, too, so you have to pretend they don't count. But actually, the number of abortions for rape pregnancy does not matter. I was just pointing out that you did not even bother making an exception for them. That's the same as libeling them. It is you people who do not have the strength to counter the pro-choice position. I do not use rape pregnancies to argue from a point of maximum emotion. I was a rape victim before Roe v Wade, morning after pills, etc., and I know what it means to wonder if one is pregnant by rape. So I'm just concerned with defending pregnant rape victims first, their well-being and their choice. Then, I help the other girls and women. So what I said, I stand by. You owe the girls and women pregnant by rape an apology, and now that I have told you that, if you do not apologize to them, I am not responsible for your insult. Let the universe give each his or her due.

 

[JayDubya]

Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum, do I smell a guilty conscience.

Is it yours, for lying?

Pretty low, right? Picking on rape victims, too, so you have to pretend they don't count. But actually, the number of abortions for rape pregnancy does not matter. I was just pointing out that you did not even bother making an exception for them. That's the same as libeling them.

So like this, accusing others of "picking on rape victims." Yeah, that's lying.

It is you people who do not have the strength to counter the pro-choice position.

Doesn't take much strength to argue against an irrational position with no substance.

I do not use rape pregnancies to argue from a point of maximum emotion. I was a rape victim before Roe v Wade, morning after pills, etc., and I know what it means to wonder if one is pregnant by rape. So I'm just concerned with defending pregnant rape victims first, their well-being and their choice.

Such a position is very sympathetic. It makes it more understandable why you find objectivity difficult.

But at the end of the day, inflicting more harm and more killing doesn't make the world a better place. A rapist is a vile aggressor and he (or hell, she) deserves significant punishment. But in the extremely unlikely event that a rape causes a pregnancy, the offspring is still not an aggressor and does not deserve punishment for the sins of the father.

So what I said, I stand by. You owe the girls and women pregnant by rape an apology, and now that I have told you that, if you do not apologize to them, I am not responsible for your insult. Let the universe give each his or her due.

What insult are you even talking about? You're not making sense.

 

[Michael Johnson]

You are right, lying doctors do not deserve to be licensed to work as doctors.

If he lies to any patient, he should have his license revoked on the first strike and blacklisted. No second chances. They knew protocol when they trained and signed up for the job.

 

[Kal'Stang]

No law should allow a doctor to lie or omit ANY pertinent medical knowledge that he/she has regarding the patient. If the patient asks a question then that doctor MUST answer completely and honestly and to the best of his ability. Anything less and the doctor SHOULD be sued and disbarred.

 

[AGENT J]

You are right, lying doctors do not deserve to be licensed to work as doctors.

agreed and 100% true