Is Affirmative Action helping or hurting?

[RightinNYC]

"Backgrounds"??
So you can discern no difference at all between a rose and a tulip,an alsatian and a corgi,a sparrow and a finch,a tiger and a lion,a shark and a golfish?
Do you accept that if other animals,birds and fish can have many sub groups then why should humanity be any different?
The observation of our own eyes tells us that there are broad categories of humanity that share among themselves common physical characteristics.
Whether we call it race,breed,sub species or whatever is besides the point but you are deceiving yourself if by chanting the mantra "there is only one race, the human race" that it is necessarily so.
Surprisingly your mantra seems only to be chanted by white liberals whilst people of other races who recognise the truth look on and shake their heads at you in amazement.
People like you will not accept the truth of what is before them because that would require them to recognise that a particular breed,Aryan man is on the verge of extinction.They would then have the stark choice of helping to preserve the said breed as one would with any other breed or species that is under threat of extinction or participate in its genocide.
Time to stop burying your head in the sand.

A tiger and a lion can't mate. A shark and a goldfish can't mate. A black person and a white person can. Same species.

Derrrrrrrrrr

 

[RightinNYC]

No. In my opinion the public school system as a whole should be modeled after the highschool I attended. About 3,100 students, a structure within the school ie 700 students per "house" each house with 1 principle, 2 counselors, and 2 college advisors, graduation rate of 98.4%, $5,236 spent by the school per student, OGT scores of Reading: 98.2%, Writing: 89.4%, Mathematics: 92.8%, Science: 86.8%, and Social Studies: 91.1%. Teachers are required to attend seminars and renew their teaching certification to catch up on the most effective way to teach and are given an outline of what must be taught in each course.. they are also subject to random in class evaluations. Various study groups, tutoring sessions by members of the NHS, and consultations are available for students who need help in their studies. Those who don't plan to attend college can choose between 2 vocational schools in the district to learn a trade along with basic highschool course requirements. It may be a shock to some of you but my highschool was a public school. So you see, we don't need to wipe out public schools alltogether..we just need an overhall and to set good standards and open up options like my highschool did.

Where was your school? Was it a charter or magnet school?

 

[RightinNYC]

Indeed they do, but IMO, we are all of one species/race......like the avian species/race, however, there are different types, although there are fewer differences between us than there are between bird types.

I would say that the differences are no less,in more ways than one.And the differences do matter.

Of course not. Why should I?

I hope that your ancestors are not listening.



I felt the need to point out here that by your reasoning, the "White race", as you refer to it, is living in the lands of another race (in the USA ,that is). So I don't see how we can be under the threat of invasion if we are the invaders.

It is a moot point as far as who was there first but leaving that issue aside the USA was created by northern Europeans not by red indians.

Also, I do not think that we need to expand our nation, we just need to make better and more efficient use of what we already have. Bureaucracy is one of the most wasteful inventions known to man.



No, IMO, it is not. And I in no way said I valued "diversity". I value equality, as in, all sub-groups of the human race are equal. And no, I do not think that the "white race", as you seem to think of it, is under attack in any way. Plus, if all sub-groups can work together, then why would there be a need for either "white supremacy" OR "white survival"? And they CAN work together, I know this for a fact. I have experienced it myself.

The USA is the supreme example of the multiculti experiment being an exercise in futility.It hasn`t worked because it cannot work.It is simply against the natural order of things.

My argument that there is one human race and multiple sub-groups of it may sound weak, but I'm just trying to convey my beliefs that while we may be different, that difference does not matter. To me at least. To some, it may be of importance, but not to me personally.

Because it "does not matter" to people like you our race will eventually and inevitably become extinct.We will have proven too weak to exercise our WILL.

How on earth are you going to make the claim that Europe has claims to the US? Secondly, if it doesnt matter who was there first, then how do the Germanic people have claims to the land of theirs that has been conquered?

Honestly, when it comes down to it, here's the facts of the matter.

I completely support your rights to do all you can to "defend your race." If you and the few other like minded white "survivalists" want to inbreed yourself into oblivion, you're perfectly entitled to do so. Fortunately, no government will ever again be controlled by people who think like yourself, so you have no recourse to mandate programs such as those you support.

And why are you so worried about "white survival?" I mean, come on, survival of the fittest, and the white race is OBVIOUSLY the superior race, right?

 

[TurtleDude]

What do those LSAT scores translate into nowadays?

don't know, I think its on a 180 point scale (one of the mods pm'd me about law school and that's what the mod told me) The old LSAT was like SAT and it was said most people scored about the same on the Verbal part of the SAT as the LSAT. when I applied (we are talking scores for white males) the average at Yale was around 770, for other top tier schools like harvard, stanford, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Duke etc 720-750 or so.

you had better have been in the top 1% on the LSAT to have a good chance at a top ten law school unless you had a clean 4.0 from a top college

 

[RightinNYC]

don't know, I think its on a 180 point scale (one of the mods pm'd me about law school and that's what the mod told me) The old LSAT was like SAT and it was said most people scored about the same on the Verbal part of the SAT as the LSAT. when I applied (we are talking scores for white males) the average at Yale was around 770, for other top tier schools like harvard, stanford, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Duke etc 720-750 or so.

you had better have been in the top 1% on the LSAT to have a good chance at a top ten law school unless you had a clean 4.0 from a top college

Yea, now it's out of 180, but I wasn't sure what the original was out of.

Nowadays, median scores for the top ten law schools are between 166-171 and 3.6-3.9

 

[Russell Hammond]

"Affirmative action" has always been outrageous. It makes white people who are utterly not responsible for anything in the past pay a heavy price because of the color of their skin (white).

This whole opposition by white people to affirmative action is a little silly. Only the marginal white people are losing out. The brilliant geniuses still get into Yale, and so you're forced to go to NYU. Who gives a ****?

The fact of the matter is that today most black people go to lower quality primary and secondary schools than most white people. Many black people come from a lower socio-economic status. And there is still blatant racism in many areas of the country. This all operates together to put many black people at a disadvantage as compared to white people. Affirmative action is a way of making up for this continuing ingrained inequality.

The world is becoming much more competitive, and we can't afford these self-imposed irrational constraints, or we are going to decline as a country.

Sorry, we're already declining as a country. We are continuing these ingrained ideas of who you are and who you know, rather than what you are capable of. We are no longer investing in education at the primary level, and we are seriously slipping as India and China are taking away even so-called "safe" service and engineering jobs.

Affirmative action would not be necessary if we fixed the schools first, but we refuse to do anything about it. And abolishing the public schools reinforces a world where wealth begets wealth and the poor stay in the **** hole.

 

[TurtleDude]

This whole opposition by white people to affirmative action is a little silly. Only the marginal white people are losing out. The brilliant geniuses still get into Yale, and so you're forced to go to NYU. Who gives a ****?

The fact of the matter is that today most black people go to lower quality primary and secondary schools than most white people. Many black people come from a lower socio-economic status. And there is still blatant racism in many areas of the country. This all operates together to put many black people at a disadvantage as compared to white people. Affirmative action is a way of making up for this continuing ingrained inequality.



Sorry, we're already declining as a country. We are continuing these ingrained ideas of who you are and who you know, rather than what you are capable of. We are no longer investing in education at the primary level, and we are seriously slipping as India and China are taking away even so-called "safe" service and engineering jobs.

Affirmative action would not be necessary if we fixed the schools first, but we refuse to do anything about it. And abolishing the public schools reinforces a world where wealth begets wealth and the poor stay in the **** hole.

yeah that is why black kids who went to exeter and then to Yale could jack off and get a 3.4 and still get into Yale Law while Us white kids who didn't go to a school as good as exeter but still managed a 3.8 at Yale didn't get in.

that is unjust and it didn't help many of those blacks who found out that they really weren't as good when they didn't make partner at Cravath Swaine and Moore because at those places what really counts is performance and a guy who never had to make top grades can't compete against one who always did

 

[Russell Hammond]

Originally I came to this topic because I thought I would get in my "liberal" remark about affirmative action, which can be an interesting topic to discuss. In particular, as Turtledude notes, there are some black students who are advantaged and there are some white students who are not. These are the exceptions to the general statistics, but perhaps the real problem, is that we aren't serving these disadvantaged white youth while we are allowing advantaged black youth to benefit. Neverthless, I would argue the answer is not in abolishing affirmative action, but reforming it.

Incidentally, I thought O'Connor had it pretty close to right in the Michigan graduate school case. Grades and test scores are important factors, but there are a number of other factors that should be considered on an individual basis, and race should be one of them. But, I think the key is that when we are considering those people on the margin of getting into a particular school or business, etc. we are considering the individual first rather than paper factors or family connections.

When it comes down to it, the argument is not about a star like John Roberts or a Colin Powell, but about those people massed together in the middle.

 

[Russell Hammond]

don't know, I think its on a 180 point scale (one of the mods pm'd me about law school and that's what the mod told me) The old LSAT was like SAT and it was said most people scored about the same on the Verbal part of the SAT as the LSAT. when I applied (we are talking scores for white males) the average at Yale was around 770, for other top tier schools like harvard, stanford, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Duke etc 720-750 or so.

Yes, it's now on the 180 scale. I took the LSAT in 2000.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes, it's now on the 180 scale. I took the LSAT in 2000.

I think it was on another scale before that and after the 800 scale. I liked the 800 scale because it was easily translatable to the SAT. However, there was no statistical difference between say a 745 and 775 yet one would help you at Yale while the former would not. I think that is one of the reasons why it was changed

 

[RightinNYC]

This whole opposition by white people to affirmative action is a little silly. Only the marginal white people are losing out. The brilliant geniuses still get into Yale, and so you're forced to go to NYU. Who gives a ****?

The fact of the matter is that today most black people go to lower quality primary and secondary schools than most white people. Many black people come from a lower socio-economic status.

EXACTLY.

There is a huge bias against people who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, which are disproportionately students of color.

But the solution to this is NOT Affirmative Action as it stands now, it's Affirmative Action based on socioeconomic status.

Poor students and students from poor areas should be given preference. It would have much of the same effect, except weed out the aid to rich/middle class minorities, and extend the aid to poor/lower class white students.

Poor black students being taught in Washington Heights aren't failing because they're black, they're failing because they're poor and being taught in a poor district. Rich white kids in the Hamptons aren't succeeding because they're white, but because they're rich and attending expensive private high schools.

The whole notion of aid tied to race is inherently racist.

 

[RightinNYC]

"In the article, UCLA law professor Richard H. Sander focuses specifically on African American law students, using statistical evidence to argue that racial preferences in admissions hurt these students more than they help them.

Sander asserts that affirmative action results in the admittance of black students to schools where they would normally not be accepted. According to Sanders, these students are sometimes unable to compete, lowering their chances of passing the bar and ultimately becoming lawyers.

“The article is exploring mismatch theory — the idea that in fairly competitive environments it can be more of a disadvantage to be at an elite school where one’s credentials are way below average,” said Sander"

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/

Check out his other works, he's a pretty solid thinker.

 

[MrAchilles]

As a bi-racial American, i think i speak for all people of color when I say "Get up off your butts, go to school and stay untill you graduate from college,stop selling drugs, assert yourself, stop complaining about the "White man" and the ghettos, read books that stimulate your mind, and take advantage of the programs this country is giving you! If you can do all this and Affirmative Action still isn't working then you complain. Until then get up and do something about it! Thank you.

 

[RightinNYC]

As a bi-racial American, i think i speak for all people of color when I say "Get up off your butts, go to school and stay untill you graduate from college,stop selling drugs, assert yourself, stop complaining about the "White man" and the ghettos, read books that stimulate your mind, and take advantage of the programs this country is giving you! If you can do all this and Affirmative Action still isn't working then you complain. Until then get up and do something about it! Thank you.

Welcome to Debate Politics!

Good first post, looking forward to the rest...:smile:

 

[Aryan Imperium]

A tiger and a lion can't mate. A shark and a goldfish can't mate. A black person and a white person can. Same species.

Derrrrrrrrrr

There are other different species that can mate that produce hybrid offspring which are often infertile.
Different breeds of dogs mate and produce mongrels,so it is with humans but that does not deny or disprove the existence of breeds.

 

[RightinNYC]

There are other different species that can mate that produce hybrid offspring which are often infertile.
Different breeds of dogs mate and produce mongrels,so it is with humans but that does not deny or disprove the existence of breeds.

The genetic similarity between humans of different races is effectively 100%, while that of other animals that can breed, such as different breeds of dogs, is significantly less matched.

And I wouldn't get too caught up on the whole "dog breeding" meme if I were you...it doesn't exactly help your racial superiority theory. Purebred dogs are more high strung, have a higher propensity toward many different genetic defects, and are generally less sociable than most mongrels.

 

[MrAchilles]

Thanks a lot RightatNYU. That feels good to get recognized by a republican. That shows that democrats and republicans can work together for the greater good. Well i'm just trying to leave my mark, get recognized and make Change. Peace.

 

[Russell Hammond]

EXACTLY.

There is a huge bias against people who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, which are disproportionately students of color.

But the solution to this is NOT Affirmative Action as it stands now, it's Affirmative Action based on socioeconomic status.

Even independent of socio-economic status, there is an achievement gap. See Michael Sadowski, "Closing the Gap One School at a Time", Harvard Education Letter (May/June 2001). http://www.edletter.org/past/issues/2001-mj/gap.shtml That's because there is still persistent racism.

Thus, while it is true that socioeconomic status may not be emphasized enough in school admissions; unfortunately race itself is still a factor.

Poor students and students from poor areas should be given preference. It would have much of the same effect, except weed out the aid to rich/middle class minorities, and extend the aid to poor/lower class white students.

I also think that while there are some outliers, most of the beneficiaries of affirmative action are deserving. You are, in my opinion, overstating the amount of advantaged minorities and overstating the effect that affirmative action has on excluding disadvantaged white kids from college.

The whole notion of aid tied to race is inherently racist.

Not when the racial disparity from segregation was never entirely atoned for.

 

[Russell Hammond]

"In the article, UCLA law professor Richard H. Sander focuses specifically on African American law students, using statistical evidence to argue that racial preferences in admissions hurt these students more than they help them.

Yale and Stanford Law Reviews both posted rebuttal articles criticizing Sander's arguments. Slate article here: http://slate.msn.com/id/2117745/

 

[alphamale]

Lessee if I got this right .... there's still racial discrimination, so we need racial discrimination.

 

[Russell Hammond]

Lessee if I got this right .... there's still racial discrimination, so we need racial discrimination.

Yes. To eliminate racial discrimination, we need redistributive programs that operate on the basis of race. That's how we reintegrated public schools after Brown v. Board of Education. To some extent, I, along with other people, should be more clear with the use of the term "discrimination." Why? Because there is a big difference between negative discrimination and positive discrimination.

 

[alphamale]

Yes. To eliminate racial discrimination, we need redistributive programs that operate on the basis of race. That's how we reintegrated public schools after Brown v. Board of Education. To some extent, I, along with other people, should be more clear with the use of the term "discrimination." Why? Because there is a big difference between negative discrimination and positive discrimination.

There is? Not to the person who's being screwed. The elite who are always pushing this crap always seem to be in a position where they are immune to the screwing they so readily enact to wreck other (innocent) peoples' lives. There are white students who worked hard all thru high school and undergrad, got the grades and test scores, and get the door to the University of Michigan Law School slammed in their face because they have insufficient melanin, by liberal faculty members on the admissions committee who are not about to give up THEIR position in favor of a black female. There are also probably lots of poor hard-working good white students who are denied admission because they don't have the melanin and sex organ qualifications of, say, the privileged middle class daughter of a black physician.

"Affirmative action" is unconstitutional (the recent votes of the olympianist, Senile Nine notwithstanding) as a straight-forward violation of the Equal Protection Clause, immoral, irrational, counterproductive, and conducive to increased racial conflict. It gives merit the heave ho at the exact time when the world is growing increasingly competitive, and the U.S. needs to put the best people in the best positions. It rewards the underserving, penalizes the innocent, and lets go scot free the guilty.

 

[Kelzie]

There are other different species that can mate that produce hybrid offspring which are often infertile.
Different breeds of dogs mate and produce mongrels,so it is with humans but that does not deny or disprove the existence of breeds.

A tad off topic, but did anyone else see that an ass was able to reproduce? I think that's pretty cool.


Anyway, did you know there are black poodles and white poodles? Along with chocolate and apricot. And they can all interbreed and still produce pure bred poodles. Crazy.

And a breed is not the same thing as a species. All humans are members of the same species.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

A tad off topic, but did anyone else see that an ass was able to reproduce? I think that's pretty cool.


Anyway, did you know there are black poodles and white poodles? Along with chocolate and apricot. And they can all interbreed and still produce pure bred poodles. Crazy.

And a breed is not the same thing as a species. All humans are members of the same species.

Are they? Some may beg to differ.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Are they? Some may beg to differ.

O of course some may beg to differ. And that is the Nazis. You think everyone else isnt even human. But thats a falacy in itself becasue that doesnt say in the DNA structure.