Intelligent design

[presluc]

I guess the first big hole in the theory of evolution is the missing link, it's still missing. I am not trying to prove existence of God here, you guys are acting just like Thom did, trying to make this into a God issue. I am really asking if you think some form of intelligence could have created us and the reality we know. Please try not to be so myopic and reactionary,this isn't believers vs atheism it's merely about if you think it's possible some being we can't fathom created what we all perceive as reality. Not long ago people looked into space and thought earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth which was carried on a turtles back or something. It is entirely possible that in 200 years people will look back at us and wonder how we could have been so stupid.

Well, I can see your point on that issue.

I would leave a statement a bit of slang from the 60's.

"The problem with knowing the unknown is the fact that it is unknown therefore no possibilty should be excluded until Facts are produced."eace

 

[Aderleth]

Thom Hartman interviewed a guy yesterday who blew some big holes in evolution theory.He pointed out the theory has flaws and just because you think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Are you atheist OK with intelligent design theory as long as its a scientist or group of scientist that created us and not a "god"?

Not remotely. It's fundamentally unprovable and therefore it's not science. It doesn't matter who the creator is alleged to be. Saying we were intelligently designed by a group of scientists (who obviously must be non-human, if they've got that kind of power) is no less mystical, and no more provable than saying God intelligently designed the universe. Incidentally, you appear to have fallen into the same false dichotomy that a lot of people have fallen into. Evolution and intelligent design are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and reduction in proof of one does not imply that the other is more likely correct.

 

[marduc]

I guess the first big hole in the theory of evolution is the missing link, it's still missing.

The entire video is worth a watch and topical, the specific "missing link" hole of yours is addressed from the 6:30 mark onward in this video, so if you do not watch the whole thing (advised) then at least watch the last 4 minutes of it if you are wanting to legitimately and honestly evaluate the validity of this supposed hole.

edit: this video should be in the apes descended from humans thread as well, but that would be a pointless endeavor of futility so I am not even going to bother.

 

[presluc]

*sigh*

Is it really too much to ask that people who engage in these discussion at least have a basic understanding of what it is they are trying to debate?

Nobody, just nobody has ever stated that life can come from rocks. This is absurd on so many levels and reveals a scientific understanding on par with a 10 year old. Have you had no education in any form of science? Are you American? Because that may very well be the answer as evolution is not normally taught in US schools in fear of the fundies but those of us coming from more sane countries do have such a background.

Life most likely was the result of several amino acids and various other organic chemical compounds. But abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.

Abiogenesis - How life started
Evolution - How life evolved over time once it had started.

And no, there are no holes in evolution that would imply the whole theory is wrong. It is one of the best supported, evidential support that is, scientific theories and remember, a scientific theory is quite different from when you and I sit around a couple of beers and one of us says "I have a theory about this..."

First of all "SIGH" I have repeated several times that I believe in the evolutionary process.
Others see evolution as a theory I can respect that

Yes I am American , and yes I have some education , but to me knowledge is a journey not a destanation , to you it seems to be a destanation you have already reached.
Unfortunately I still have questions.

It is also unfornuate that I missed the breaking scientific discovery of the creation and evolution of the species by who was it again? WOOster on a debate forum explaining everything without problems or facts for that matter.
Oh well good luck on the Scientific award try not to forget the poor people who have faith in God or scientist that still have questions about amino acids and chemicals in a vacum of space.

I know I may be a bit foward here but I suppose the unknown factor never crossed your mind but alas I search and seek it everyday.
Perhaps, since you obviously know everything perhaps you could tell us a bit about other galaxies, the possibility of other Demensions Artificial Intelligence, the other side of a black hole in space.

Maybe that's a bit much, how about something easy like a cheap alternitive fuel to oil man made?

" SIGH":roll:

 

[Verthaine]

Well, I'm going to do something I very raely do to qoute two line in a post.

"Scientist do not know what was before the Big bang or why it happened"
These are your words copied from your post correct?


"We already know that life comes from life,
We just don't know why or how it happened in the first place"
These are your words copied from your post correct?

In both cases scientist state as well as you THEY DON'T KNOW what was before the big bang or why it happened
Scientist also state they know life comes from life , but THEY DON'T KNOW the how and why it happened.

I don't mind this there is a lot of things that I as well as the human race don't know.

If it is as you say , and I think it is, when it comes to scientist as well as athiest/scientist THEY DON'T KNOW.

My question is how can these same people THAT DON'T KNOW a lot about creation or evolution of iving organisms.

How can they make a statement knowing for sure possitivily there is no God or Intelligent Design???eace

When you say "God" exactly what do YOU mean?
You haven't been exactly clear about that.

When anyone say that "God" exists or does not exist,they are only stating their opinions not facts.
Unless they can supply evidence to support either statement.

I can't answer for anyone else but me, all I can say is that there is no evidence for or against the existence of God in the form of some omnipotent gigantic white guy wearing a beard,sandals, and a robe who lives in the clouds alongside a bunch of winged beings who sits on a throne with his Son at his right side who is always pissed off at humanity at this current moment and that there is no evidence for Intelligent Design at this current moment.

Now if you wish to define "God" the way I and plenty of other Taoists view "God" as "being every particle and force in the universe being interconnected and influencing every other particle and force in the Universe (and possibly an infinite amount of Universes) throughout time and space (thus the Taoist and Buddhist saying "All Is One") in a way that we do not quite understand at this moment,that contains both intelligence and life within it, obeying a set of fundamental rules that we are only just beginning to discover, then yes there is plenty of evidence to support that.

Chaos Theory and Bell's Theorem have never been proven wrong.

 

[presluc]

The difference is that there is observational evidence for evolution. It's not that "atheists are not open to intelligent design theory in any way shape or form", in fact we all said that if there were measurable evidence for the "scientist" it could be accepted as an actual scientific theory.

If this is true when it comes to observational evidence the unknown factor is faced by scientist everyday.

My question is what is accepted as a scientific theory, far as we know a theory does not have to have facts or it would not be a theory it would be a fact?

Faith= unproven fact
Big Bang theory= unproven fact

I have faith that God exist but it is still an unproven fact
Now you can say we observe the universe expanding but it's still unproven fact.

You know how I stand but in my opinion the big bang theory remains a possibilty.
Just as God remains a possibilty.
Both fall into the same catagory of the unknown factor.
The differance is only one believes in one the other believes in the other.
Leaving both to remain posibilties.eace

 

[Occam's Razor]

So the exception to the rule as it stands is to prove the nonexistance of God is it not?

Example physics 101 you can not have an explosion without matter and energy. scientist physics rule
Eception to the rule. THE BIG BANG that started the universe

Biology 101 living organisms evolve into living organisms
Itellectual Biologist rule
Eception to the rule, abiogenesesis.
You speak to me of strawman?

How many more exceptions are there?

The faith in God or intelligent design but one exception after that just faith.eace

Both examples given are gross simplifications bordering on distortion.

In the physics example, we have worked our way from fundamental observations, many of them wrong (the earth is the center of the universe) and methodically improved on theories as we gain knowledge and insight and observation. No physicist claims that the big bang (which is still under highly skeptical suspicion) came from nothing. We are still looking for the answer of what might have come before, or if there is another explanation entirely.

The biological example...

What comes before biology? Chemistry. Chemistry happens everywhere there is matter and energy. Sometimes that energy is released from the atom/molecule, sometimes it is gained from heat or light. We have found evidence of amino acids in comets. These are simple molecules consisting of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen. They look like this...

These molecules already contain the ability to perform certain functions. Like the big bang, we don't know yet, not because it can't be known or is wrong, but because it takes ever more refined science to tease out the answers, just as it has over the 6000 year history of science.

 

[presluc]

When you say "God" exactly what do YOU mean?
You haven't been exactly clear about that.

When anyone say that "God" exists or does not exist,they are only stating their opinions not facts.
Unless they can supply evidence to support either statement.

I can't answer for anyone else but me, all I can say is that there is no evidence for or against the existence of God in the form of some omnipotent gigantic white guy wearing a beard,sandals, and a robe who lives in the clouds alongside a bunch of winged beings who sits on a throne with his Son at his right side who is always pissed off at humanity at this current moment and that there is no evidence for Intelligent Design at this current moment.

Now if you wish to define "God" the way I and plenty of other Taoists view "God" as "being every particle and force in the universe being interconnected and influencing every other particle and force in the Universe (and possibly an infinite amount of Universes) throughout time and space (thus the Taoist and Buddhist saying "All Is One") in a way that we do not quite understand at this moment,that contains both intelligence and life within it, obeying a set of fundamental rules that we are only just beginning to discover, then yes there is plenty of evidence to support that.

Chaos Theory and Bell's Theorem have never been proven wrong.

It is as you say I can not answer for anybody but me, although I have a theory.
It is my belief that God can not be described for no one knows they speculate an old man flying around in the sky or a budda atop a mountain ect.
As for me I think of God as a force kinda like the wind or a high surf but with intelligence.

I do not thing God created the universe or man I think he just gave a push to start the universe and a few living organisms to start the evolutionary procress.

As far as my views of if God helps mankind?
To me that is a personal point of my belief., but it is said God works in mysterious ways.

Another point of interest to me has been the afterlife some say it's heaven in the sky, maybe?.
I have a theory that it is another demension.

Perhaps my beliefs are not acceptable to you.
That will not change my core belief, for your beliefs are acceptable to me I would not ridicule or critisize your beliefs as long as my beliefs are left without too much ridicule.

Has for the theories of CHAOS and BELL'S never being proved wrong that is correct but where have they been tested save EARTH?

Although I may not live to see it , it has always been my belief that in the furture mankind will reach other planets and eventualy other galaxies with other life forms who may have a differant set of never proved wrong theories that exclude these theories.eace

 

[atrasicarius]

If this is true when it comes to observational evidence the unknown factor is faced by scientist everyday.

My question is what is accepted as a scientific theory, far as we know a theory does not have to have facts or it would not be a theory it would be a fact?

As has been explained several times now, this is wrong. A scientific theory is a comprehensive explanation of a natural phenomenon backed up by empirical evidence. Gravity, quantum mechanics, and tectonics are all theories, and they're all about as well supported as evolution.

Faith= unproven fact
Big Bang theory= unproven fact

I have faith that God exist but it is still an unproven fact
Now you can say we observe the universe expanding but it's still unproven fact.

You know how I stand but in my opinion the big bang theory remains a possibilty.
Just as God remains a possibilty.
Both fall into the same catagory of the unknown factor.
The differance is only one believes in one the other believes in the other.
Leaving both to remain posibilties.eace

Except the Big Bang has a considerable amount of evidence going for it, and God has nothing. Produce some empirical evidence for the existence of God, and then we'll talk.

 

[presluc]

Both examples given are gross simplifications bordering on distortion.

In the physics example, we have worked our way from fundamental observations, many of them wrong (the earth is the center of the universe) and methodically improved on theories as we gain knowledge and insight and observation. No physicist claims that the big bang (which is still under highly skeptical suspicion) came from nothing. We are still looking for the answer of what might have come before, or if there is another explanation entirely.

The biological example...

What comes before biology? Chemistry. Chemistry happens everywhere there is matter and energy. Sometimes that energy is released from the atom/molecule, sometimes it is gained from heat or light. We have found evidence of amino acids in comets. These are simple molecules consisting of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen. They look like this...

These molecules already contain the ability to perform certain functions. Like the big bang, we don't know yet, not because it can't be known or is wrong, but because it takes ever more refined science to tease out the answers, just as it has over the 6000 year history of science.

I know science has come a long way through observations and testing and retesting theories.

I can respect that, but peoplethat have faith haven't just been standing still.

At one time if you had faith you could not believe in evolution
Myself and many others changed that

At one time to have faith in God you had to believe in every page of te bible
Myself and others changed that.

A lot of organized religion think of scientific reserch as their enemy
I support scientific reserch

Most christians of organized religion won't talk to athiest/scientist unless they are trying to push their beliefs on them
I welcome any athiest./scientist discussion I have not pushed my beliefs on anybody

It would seem like the other way around according to the past post.

I have an open mind to science they present their ideas based on their beliefs I simply ask questions.
Yet when my ideas are presented based on athiest/scientist they are foolish, could never happen .
In short I say well that could happen , while Ilisten to NO THERE IS NO GOD WE KNOW.
MY QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU KNOW?.

IN 6000 years of athiest/science you have statted you know without a doubt there is no God .
Do you have absolute proof that the ubniverse was created by scientific means NO

Athiest/ scientist/ biologist have stated they know without a doubt there is no God
Yet do they know where the amino acids and chemistry come from NO.

You say you found some in a comet was this pre big bang I don't think so.
You can find amino acids as well as chemical products today.
However to last a few billion years would be a stretch would it not.

All I'm asking is that no possibility should be left out simply because of WHAT?
It don't make sence ?
Hell half of scientific discoveries didn't make sence most were found by accident.eace

 

[atrasicarius]

I know science has come a long way through observations and testing and retesting theories.

I can respect that, but peoplethat have faith haven't just been standing still.

At one time if you had faith you could not believe in evolution
Myself and many others changed that

At one time to have faith in God you had to believe in every page of te bible
Myself and others changed that.

A lot of organized religion think of scientific reserch as their enemy
I support scientific reserch

Most christians of organized religion won't talk to athiest/scientist unless they are trying to push their beliefs on them
I welcome any athiest./scientist discussion I have not pushed my beliefs on anybody

It would seem like the other way around according to the past post.

I have an open mind to science they present their ideas based on their beliefs I simply ask questions.
Yet when my ideas are presented based on athiest/scientist they are foolish, could never happen .
In short I say well that could happen , while Ilisten to NO THERE IS NO GOD WE KNOW.
MY QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU KNOW?.

IN 6000 years of athiest/science you have statted you know without a doubt there is no God .
Do you have absolute proof that the ubniverse was created by scientific means NO

Athiest/ scientist/ biologist have stated they know without a doubt there is no God
Yet do they know where the amino acids and chemistry come from NO.

You say you found some in a comet was this pre big bang I don't think so.
You can find amino acids as well as chemical products today.
However to last a few billion years would be a stretch would it not.

All I'm asking is that no possibility should be left out simply because of WHAT?
It don't make sence ?
Hell half of scientific discoveries didn't make sence most were found by accident.eace

We don't absolutely know there is no God. We assume there is no God in the same way we assume there is no Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, or Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[Paschendale]

We don't know there is no god. But we do know that everything every claimed by anyone to be the work of god is not. Therefore, we know that there probably is no god. Like, almost certainly is no god. And absolutely certainly not this god.

 

[Verthaine]

I hope Occams Razor doesn't mind me fielding this one,since he is not here at the moment.

I know science has come a long way through observations and testing and retesting theories.

I can respect that, but peoplethat have faith haven't just been standing still.

At one time if you had faith you could not believe in evolution
Myself and many others changed that

At one time to have faith in God you had to believe in every page of te bible
Myself and others changed that.

A lot of organized religion think of scientific reserch as their enemy
I support scientific reserch

Good for you.

Most christians of organized religion won't talk to athiest/scientist unless they are trying to push their beliefs on them
I welcome any athiest./scientist discussion I have not pushed my beliefs on anybody

Is that a fact or just your opinion.
While there are some christians of organized religion that do what you just described, aren't you generalizing quite a bit when you say "most".
Do you have any evidence that a majority of christians of orgainzed religion do as you so described.

It would seem like the other way around according to the past post.

I have an open mind to science they present their ideas based on their beliefs I simply ask questions.

Any scientist that presents to you their ideas as facts without providing the evidence to back them up is means that they are wrong to do so.
Any scientist that presents their ideas and provides the evidence to back them up to you and you refuse to accept the evidence just because you don't like it or it contradicts your beliefs means that you are wrong to do so.

Yet when my ideas are presented based on athiest/scientist they are foolish, could never happen .
In short I say well that could happen , while Ilisten to NO THERE IS NO GOD WE KNOW.
MY QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU KNOW?.

I really don't have an, or even know how to, answer to this question unless you state what exactly your beliefs are about "God".
I believe I have asked you to do so a number of times and you have yet to do so.
Any scientist that presents to you their ideas as facts without providing the evidence to back them up is means that they are wrong to do so.
Any scientist that presents their ideas and provides the evidence to back them up to you and you refuse to accept the evidence just because you don't like it or it contradicts your beliefs means that you are wrong to do so.

IN 6000 years of athiest/science you have statted you know without a doubt there is no God .

I just check this entire thread and in no way,shape or form did Occam's Razor ever state that.

You have a nasty habit of misquoting,taking things out of context or out right lying.
Please stop that.

Do you have absolute proof that the ubniverse was created by scientific means NO

If it can be proven that the Universe was actually created in the first place (The Oscillating Model and the Multiverse makes just as much sense as a "Created Universe",which is to say none of them have any evidence at this moment) and scientists figure out how it was done it,"creation" would have been by scientific means if there is a "who" that made the Universe in the first place.
Which has never been proven or disproven in the first place.

Athiest/ scientist/ biologist have stated they know without a doubt there is no God

If a or a group of Athiest/ scientist/ biologist said that without providing the evidence to back that claim up they would be wrong to do so.
If you are trying to imply that every single Athiest/ scientist/ biologist has said that without providing the evidence to back that implication up,then you are wrong to do so.
Yet do they know where the amino acids and chemistry come from NO.

You say you found some in a comet was this pre big bang I don't think so.
You can find amino acids as well as chemical products today.
However to last a few billion years would be a stretch would it not.

All I'm asking is that no possibility should be left out simply because of WHAT?
It don't make sence ?
Hell half of scientific discoveries didn't make sence most were found by accident.eace[/QUOTE]

 

[Verthaine]

Oops,my bad.

I got called away for a bit and I hit reply without realiziing that this part was still left and that I wasn't finished.(when the missus call's I've learned to see what she wants really quick.Love ya babe)

Athiest/ scientist/ biologist have stated they know without a doubt there is no God

If a or a group of Athiest/ scientist/ biologist said that without providing the evidence to back that claim up they would be wrong to do so.
If you are trying to imply that every single Athiest/ scientist/ biologist on this planet has said that without providing the evidence to back that implication up,then you are wrong to do so.

Yet do they know where the amino acids and chemistry come from NO.

Can you provide any links to any scientist that does say thatso that I can say that they are wrong right here on this forum

You say you found some in a comet was this pre big bang I don't think so.
You can find amino acids as well as chemical products today.
However to last a few billion years would be a stretch would it not.

Who the hell is saying that?
Again I just checked and Occam's Razor never said that.
Stop deliberately misquoting people.

All I'm asking is that no possibility should be left out simply because of WHAT?
It don't make sence ?
Hell half of scientific discoveries didn't make sence most were found by accident.eace

O.k. what exactly is your point?

Every avenue and every possibility should be explored.

Not "every avenue and every possibility should be explored except the ones that presluc doesn't like,makes him feel uncomfortable,or may prove his beliefs to be false"

And don't even think of trying to spin that above statement as meaning that "I said you said".

 

[Ikari]

My question is what is accepted as a scientific theory, far as we know a theory does not have to have facts or it would not be a theory it would be a fact?

A theory needs to have observables. There are well more observables for the big bang than for any god; but that's because gods are undefinable. Which is why they cannot be in any accepted theory of science.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I know science has come a long way through observations and testing and retesting theories.

I can respect that, but peoplethat have faith haven't just been standing still.

At one time if you had faith you could not believe in evolution
Myself and many others changed that

At one time to have faith in God you had to believe in every page of te bible
Myself and others changed that.

A lot of organized religion think of scientific reserch as their enemy
I support scientific reserch

Most christians of organized religion won't talk to athiest/scientist unless they are trying to push their beliefs on them
I welcome any athiest./scientist discussion I have not pushed my beliefs on anybody

It would seem like the other way around according to the past post.

I have an open mind to science they present their ideas based on their beliefs I simply ask questions.
Yet when my ideas are presented based on athiest/scientist they are foolish, could never happen .
In short I say well that could happen , while Ilisten to NO THERE IS NO GOD WE KNOW.
MY QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU KNOW?.

IN 6000 years of athiest/science you have statted you know without a doubt there is no God .
Do you have absolute proof that the ubniverse was created by scientific means NO

Athiest/ scientist/ biologist have stated they know without a doubt there is no God
Yet do they know where the amino acids and chemistry come from NO.

You say you found some in a comet was this pre big bang I don't think so.
You can find amino acids as well as chemical products today.
However to last a few billion years would be a stretch would it not.

All I'm asking is that no possibility should be left out simply because of WHAT?
It don't make sence ?
Hell half of scientific discoveries didn't make sence most were found by accident.eace

Before I address the rest of this post, I'd like you to show me where I even hinted that I know for certain there is no God...

Once we clear that little intellectually dishonest tactic, I'd be happy to continue a discussion.

 

[presluc]

We don't absolutely know there is no God. We assume there is no God in the same way we assume there is no Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, or Flying Spaghetti Monster.

That is my point you athiest say we assume there is no God.
That I can respect
However you have to add on something like Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Spagetti Monster.
All I have heard before , that is where you loose my respect, for it is not enough to say we assume there is no God you add crap to make it sound like anybody that does believe in God is foolish.

That sword can cut both ways, for if you choose to make sport of my belief WELL?

However I assume that the universe was not created by scientific means.

This scientific theory is really speculation , conjector or "well I guess" in disguise.
In short scientific theorys alter idienity is speculation
Was there a big bang?
Well the universe is expanding so there must have been a big ban
Proof well we can call it a theory that we are observing that's enough.
What about the laws of physics?
Well we can make an exception to the rules of the laws we wrote?

What about evolution living organisms
Well we can make an exception to the rule and say amino acids and chemicals came from the big bang.

You do believe in unknown factors do you not yes except for the existance of God
Although an unknown factor we assume God does not exist therefore should be in the same class as Santa Clause , Tooth Fairy. and spagetti monster.

Very well I assume that scientific theory of creation does not exist and should be in the same class as a magic trick, a coin pulled from an ear, or 3 card monty or any cheap magic trick done by warlocks or maybe witches on broom sticks..eace

 

[presluc]

We don't know there is no god. But we do know that everything every claimed by anyone to be the work of god is not. Therefore, we know that there probably is no god. Like, almost certainly is no god. And absolutely certainly not this god.

I respect your beliefs although I don't agree.

My belief is not based on what is known but what is not known.

The possibilty of a Big Bang is there , we know evolution is there.
The possibilty that te big bang as welll as evolution had help getting started can not be disguarded or swept under the rug.eace

For then every unkown factor that mankind is yet to know must be swept under the same rug.
Life on other planets. unexplained paranomal activity, new energy, man one day visiting differant planets or even differant galaxies, as well as demensions. all fall into te unknown factor are all to be consiidered "PROBABLY NOT".

 

[Verthaine]

That is my point you athiest say we assume there is no God.
That I can respect
However you have to add on something like Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Spagetti Monster.
All I have heard before , that is where you loose my respect, for it is not enough to say we assume there is no God you add crap to make it sound like anybody that does believe in God is foolish.

I've stated numerous times that I "believe in God" and on post#55 I stated:

"Now if you wish to define "God" the way I and plenty of other Taoists view "God" as "being every particle and force in the universe being interconnected and influencing every other particle and force in the Universe (and possibly an infinite amount of Universes) throughout time and space (thus the Taoist and Buddhist saying "All Is One") in a way that we do not quite understand at this moment,that contains both intelligence and life within it, obeying a set of fundamental rules that we are only just beginning to discover, then yes there is plenty of evidence to support that."

And no one on this thread (or even on this this entire forum) has ridiculed me about it or told me I was foolish to believe the way I dr even said I was wrong.

Atrasicarius was the only one on this thread that made the statement:
"We don't absolutely know there is no God. We assume there is no God in the same way we assume there is no Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, or Flying Spaghetti Monster."
I believe he's talking about what atheist believe and assume.
As is his right to do so.
But what I do have to say to Atrasicarius is:
"Please do not lump the Flying Spaghetti Monster with Santa Claus,the Tooth fairy and Preslucs God.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is waaaay cooler then them."
But that's just my opinion

I've been asking you for quite some time what are your views and beliefs about god,and I am still waiting for an answer.

That sword can cut both ways, for if you choose to make sport of my belief WELL?

Wahh,wah,wah,people are making fun of my beliefs,wah wah wah.
Wahh,wah,wah,people are making fun of my god,wah wah wah.

If Your God doesn't like it ,let Your God do something about.

However I assume that the universe was not created by scientific means.

So how exactly was the universe created.
Magic?
Ooohhhhh ooooga boooga Grok not understand ooooga boooga.

To paraphrase both Issac Asimov and Lex Luthor in the movie Superman Returns, "To the primitive mind, any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic". ...

Please enlighten us as to how the universe was created and the method you use to achieve that conclusion.

This scientific theory is really speculation , conjector or "well I guess" in disguise.
In short scientific theorys alter idienity is speculation
Was there a big bang?
Well the universe is expanding so there must have been a big ban
Proof well we can call it a theory that we are observing that's enough.
What about the laws of physics?
Well we can make an exception to the rules of the laws we wrote?

What about evolution living organisms
Well we can make an exception to the rule and say amino acids and chemicals came from the big bang.

Didn't I already anwer that question?
Well what do you know,I did,
Post #51

The big Bang is not the exception to the rule.
Scientist do not know what was before the Big Bang or why it happened.
Only that apparently according to their ability to interpret all the evidence they have been able to review that's what how it appears to have happened .
Like I've asked you a number of times before,if you have anything better then the Big bang theory please by all means present it here for review.

Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
"Biology 101 living organisms evolve into living organisms
Itellectual Biologist rule
Eception to the rule, abiogenesis.

Your kidding me right?
Abiogenesis is the study of how biological life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes, and the methodby which life on Earth arose."

It is not "the exception to the rule".
No one knows how life arose from inorganic matter.
I've already stated that.
We already know that life comes from life.
We just don't know the how and why it happened in the first place.[/I]
Again I am going to ask"if you have anything better then the Big bang theory please by all means present it here for review".

You do believe in unknown factors do you not yes except for the existance of God
Although an unknown factor we assume God does not exist therefore should be in the same class as Santa Clause , Tooth Fairy. and spagetti monster.

Well then the answer now becomes obvious:
PROVE "YOUR" GOD EXISTS"

Gee,that should be easy,right?

Very well I assume that scientific theory of creation does not exist and should be in the same class as a magic trick, a coin pulled from an ear, or 3 card monty or any cheap magic trick done by warlocks or maybe witches on broom sticks..eace

You right,there is no scientific theory of creation at this moment.
Any book on astro physics will state that it is currently impossible to determine what went on 10-43 of a second before the big bang.

I will ask YOU this question

Exactly how did this Universe come to existence and what method do YOU use to determine it.

 

[presluc]

That is my point you athiest say we assume there is no God.
That I can respect
However you have to add on something like Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Spagetti Monster.
All I have heard before , that is where you loose my respect, for it is not enough to say we assume there is no God you add crap to make it sound like anybody that does believe in God is foolish.

That sword can cut both ways, for if you choose to make sport of my belief WELL?

However I assume that the universe was not created by scientific means.

This scientific theory is really speculation , conjector or "well I guess" in disguise.
In short scientific theorys alter idienity is speculation
Was there a big bang?
Well the universe is expanding so there must have been a big ban
Proof well we can call it a theory that we are observing that's enough.
What about the laws of physics?
Well we can make an exception to the rules of the laws we wrote?

What about evolution living organisms
Well we can make an exception to the rule and say amino acids and chemicals came from the big bang.

You do believe in unknown factors do you not yes except for the existance of God
Although an unknown factor we assume God does not exist therefore should be in the same class as Santa Clause , Tooth Fairy. and spagetti monster.

Very well I assume that scientific theory of creation does not exist and should be in the same class as a magic trick, a coin pulled from an ear, or 3 card monty or any cheap magic trick done by warlocks or maybe witches on broom sticks..eace

Well I'll find out something here I've tried to respond to Vertain's post 5 times now each time I could not post I pushed post quick reply and got switched to another site.
I can not be sure what is happening, for if somebody has me on the ignore button why keep posting to me? all they need do is stop.
Perhaps something is wrong with the workings of this thread?

So Itry 5 times to respond to one post and nothing but 1 try and I respond on my post.

IT'S EASY TO TRASHTALK SOMEBODY WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRU ABUT RETALIATION.

BETTER TO DIE ON MY FEET THEN TO LIVE ON MY KNEES IN HIDING,
SO NO MORE RESPONSES FROM ME VERTAIN. keep hiding.

 

[atrasicarius]

I've stated numerous times that I "believe in God" and on post#55 I stated:

"Now if you wish to define "God" the way I and plenty of other Taoists view "God" as "being every particle and force in the universe being interconnected and influencing every other particle and force in the Universe (and possibly an infinite amount of Universes) throughout time and space (thus the Taoist and Buddhist saying "All Is One") in a way that we do not quite understand at this moment,that contains both intelligence and life within it, obeying a set of fundamental rules that we are only just beginning to discover, then yes there is plenty of evidence to support that."

And no one on this thread (or even on this this entire forum) has ridiculed me about it or told me I was foolish to believe the way I dr even said I was wrong.

Atrasicarius was the only one on this thread that made the statement:
"We don't absolutely know there is no God. We assume there is no God in the same way we assume there is no Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, or Flying Spaghetti Monster."
I believe he's talking about what atheist believe and assume.
As is his right to do so.
But what I do have to say to Atrasicarius is:
"Please do not lump the Flying Spaghetti Monster with Santa Claus,the Tooth fairy and Preslucs God.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is waaaay cooler then them."
But that's just my opinion

I've been asking you for quite some time what are your views and beliefs about god,and I am still waiting for an answer.


Wahh,wah,wah,people are making fun of my beliefs,wah wah wah.
Wahh,wah,wah,people are making fun of my god,wah wah wah.

If Your God doesn't like it ,let Your God do something about.


So how exactly was the universe created.
Magic?
Ooohhhhh ooooga boooga Grok not understand ooooga boooga.

To paraphrase both Issac Asimov and Lex Luthor in the movie Superman Returns, "To the primitive mind, any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic". ...

Please enlighten us as to how the universe was created and the method you use to achieve that conclusion.



Didn't I already anwer that question?
Well what do you know,I did,
Post #51

The big Bang is not the exception to the rule.
Scientist do not know what was before the Big Bang or why it happened.
Only that apparently according to their ability to interpret all the evidence they have been able to review that's what how it appears to have happened .
Like I've asked you a number of times before,if you have anything better then the Big bang theory please by all means present it here for review.

Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
"Biology 101 living organisms evolve into living organisms
Itellectual Biologist rule
Eception to the rule, abiogenesis.

Your kidding me right?
Abiogenesis is the study of how biological life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes, and the methodby which life on Earth arose."

It is not "the exception to the rule".
No one knows how life arose from inorganic matter.
I've already stated that.
We already know that life comes from life.
We just don't know the how and why it happened in the first place.[/I]
Again I am going to ask"if you have anything better then the Big bang theory please by all means present it here for review".


Well then the answer now becomes obvious:
PROVE "YOUR" GOD EXISTS"

Gee,that should be easy,right?





You right,there is no scientific theory of creation at this moment.
Any book on astro physics will state that it is currently impossible to determine what went on 10-43 of a second before the big bang.

I will ask YOU this question

Exactly how did this Universe come to existence and what method do YOU use to determine it.

Well, apparently I don't have a problem replying to Verthaine. I guess you're just special, presluc.

 

[atrasicarius]

That is my point you athiest say we assume there is no God.
That I can respect
However you have to add on something like Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Spagetti Monster.
All I have heard before , that is where you loose my respect, for it is not enough to say we assume there is no God you add crap to make it sound like anybody that does believe in God is foolish.

That sword can cut both ways, for if you choose to make sport of my belief WELL?

However I assume that the universe was not created by scientific means.

This scientific theory is really speculation , conjector or "well I guess" in disguise.
In short scientific theorys alter idienity is speculation
Was there a big bang?
Well the universe is expanding so there must have been a big ban
Proof well we can call it a theory that we are observing that's enough.
What about the laws of physics?
Well we can make an exception to the rules of the laws we wrote?

What about evolution living organisms
Well we can make an exception to the rule and say amino acids and chemicals came from the big bang.

You do believe in unknown factors do you not yes except for the existance of God
Although an unknown factor we assume God does not exist therefore should be in the same class as Santa Clause , Tooth Fairy. and spagetti monster.

Very well I assume that scientific theory of creation does not exist and should be in the same class as a magic trick, a coin pulled from an ear, or 3 card monty or any cheap magic trick done by warlocks or maybe witches on broom sticks..eace

See, there's this little thing called evidence. Evidence is things you can observe in the natural world to support your theory. I can point to a rather large amount of evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution. Can you point to evidence for God? If not, then comparing it to other things with no evidence, such as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is entirely fair.

 

[Verthaine]

Well I'll find out something here I've tried to respond to Vertain's post 5 times now each time I could not post I pushed post quick reply and got switched to another site.
I can not be sure what is happening, for if somebody has me on the ignore button why keep posting to me? all they need do is stop.
Perhaps something is wrong with the workings of this thread?

So Itry 5 times to respond to one post and nothing but 1 try and I respond on my post.

IT'S EASY TO TRASHTALK SOMEBODY WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRU ABUT RETALIATION.

BETTER TO DIE ON MY FEET THEN TO LIVE ON MY KNEES IN HIDING,
SO NO MORE RESPONSES FROM ME VERTAIN. keep hiding.

I'm not hiding
I'm right here!!!!
Can anyone else see post #69?
Maybe this means you need a new computer.
May I suggest one with a spellcheck feature?

Because an "ignore" (if there even is a feature like that on this site,and if I even knew where it was,which I don't) button would only prevent the person from seeing posts made by the person they pressed it against.
It wouldn't prevent you or anyone else from responding.

I wouldn't be able to see your responses,but everyone else should.
I've been begging you answer these questions for a while now.
And yet you are still trying to avoid doing so.'
So who's the one hiding?
You've been bobbing weaving and dodging like "Sugar Ray" Leonard on amphetamines.

I've actually enjoyed ripping apart your arguments like Freddy Krueger at an Elm Street teenage slumber party.


Do you even know how to "cut and paste"?

Since it is obvious you saw my post (#69) there is nothing to really prevent you from answering the questions (that I made sure everyone can see) that I posted.

The only reason it seems you have is your unwillingness to answer them.
In my opinion that makes you a coward.

How about this?

Can I please ask anyone who is viewing this thread to cut and paste the questions that I asked on post #69 onto a post of "your" making so that presluc can answer you?
Thank you

 

[Verthaine]

Well what do you know,I can also respond to preslucs post.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Its interesting how atheist, I may start calling them “concept of god haters” always want to steer intelligent design theory into religion and god. Pure ID theory merely puts forth the concept that some form of intelligence is behind us and what we perceive as reality, a “god” is not part of the theory, can’t you atheist concept of god haters get that through your minds?I swear you Darwinist are worse than any bible thumper or Jehovah Witness that ever knocked on my door.
Try this link if you dare,Origins of Life