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Intelligent design

Locke and Load said:
Valid points you have there, except that an infinite universe isn't accepted because by science we are led to believe that it had a start point 13.7 billion years ago. Also, our universe could not have arisen on "natural principles" because before the universe was created, there weren't any natural principles to begin with. The only way that would tie in today or be proven is if we could create a true vaccum (remove all light, matter, gas etc.) and another universe came into being from within it. Even within a true vaccum I'm not sure that would totally mimic what was before the universe.

Although our universe may have come from another universe/dimension. I am not so closed-minded as to believe we are the only universe/dimension that is possible. But that raises the question of course of where did THAT universe come from? Another thought is, who are we to say what those other universes/dimensions are? Do you honestly believe if we somehow stumbled into another universe or dimension that it would be anything CLOSE to this one? And how do we know those other dimensions aren't heaven and hell? I know that for most people, we view earth as in the middle of heaven and hell, because you "ascend" into heaven and "descend" into hell. But they certainly aren't in this dimension. That would be like implying we could just blast a rocket up to heaven. Whether or not you believe heaven exists or not, that thought is laughable. So even with Occam's razor saying that a multi-dimensional/universe existense is simpler and more acceptable than an infinite creator (although I'm not sure how it is, we have no "scientific" evidence of either) it is still possible our universe did come from another dimension, but that this dimension be the heaven/creator (in some form) that most religions speak of.
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There are a lot of ideas that suggest we're just part of an infinite multiverse, or an infinite cycle of universes. That's what I'm talking about when I say infinite. This particular universe began 13.7 billion years ago, but there may be others. To me, that seems like a more reasonable assumption than invoking some kind of god.
 
I see your point, but could you provide any links or proof that the infinite cycle of universes is a plausible idea? It's a valid argument, since I can't say that an infinite creator is more likely than an infinite cycle of universes. But what would provoke the means of ending or starting a universe? If you accept that it DOES happen, your going to have to explain HOW. Also, this also raises the question (not directly on topic but whatever) that if there has been an infinite cycle then sentient life in some form had to exist in another universe right? But that universe somehow ended and destroyed that life? I don't know, just weird to think about.

Also even if you could prove that, it would not disprove a Creator, because I doubt that an all-powerful omnipotent Creator would be bound by human's own feeble idea of infinity or multiverse's. Who's to say a Creator hasn't been the one creating the universe's all this time? That would explain how they've started and stopped. Which would make sense, because it seems weird that out of nothingness came a universe with a law and order (physics, action/reaction etc.) and then somehow this structured world destroyed itself.

Again, just my thoughts, but I feel like assuming an infinity of universe's or a multi-verse is possible would make the argument for a Creator stronger than if this single universe is all that is, has been, and ever will be.
 
Although the multi-verse or infinity cycle would explain where the energy and matter of our universe came from, but then we'd have to accept that our entire natural world is basically recycled materials...
 
Lol first thing I see when I open the link

"This article needs attention from an expert on the subject. See the talk page for details. WikiProject Science or the Science Portal may be able to help recruit an expert. "

Usually not the best way to present an argument=) But in all seriousness, that article says that the number before the brane, such as 0-brane means it is zero dimensional. Since our world is three dimensional, wouldn't that make us 3-brane? But earlier it proposes that our universe was merely a result of a collision between two of the extra-dimensional (taking that means more than 3) branes collided...so are we in the 3-brane or stuck somewhere in the middle of like the 8th and 9th brane?

Also, I would like to see how they theorized that there are 11-dimensions no more and no less and that these dimensions have existed indefinitely. Although the separation of time into it's own dimension would still make sense, because (atleast in Christianity) God claims to be the God of the past, present and future, which is hard for our minds to comprehend in our 3-d world where time runs always forward. Note, I'm not just grasping at straws or pushing an agenda by always including a religion connnection into my response like that, I'm just trying to show that religion and science/theoretical theories can be integrated. Way to many people (religious and secular) seem to think that one view has to supersede or beat out the other. If you look at both of them honestly and do some critical thinking, there are many connections between religious teachings and scientific findings/theories/ and thoughts of other dimensions or universe's.

Also, if you assume that there is an all-powerful Creator, than you cannot assume that he would be bound to stay within these dimensions. Also if you assume that this is correct, you just went from having one universe/dimension being created or being infinite to now having 11 different dimensions being infinite. If I was having trouble thinking that it was hard for one universe to be infinite or created than it would be hard for me to think that 11 could.

On a last note, why would a collision between any of these two branes/dimensions create another universe, fill it with light and matter, and how would a collision create something with order and natural laws?
 
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Locke and Load = "whether or not God condemns, allows, tolerates, or
even encourages homosexual behavior is hardly for us to decide" ..
no .. we really don't decide .. God has already decided.

It's really a no-brainer

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones . . . .
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another ..
Men committed indecent acts with other men ..
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion . . . . more on this issue

here's your sin




​
 
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Trying to understand the concept of "God" may be an exercise in futility. If there is some conciseness that created what we know as reality it may just be beyond our ability to comprehend. We may be like dogs put in the family car and taken on vacation. They can't grasp how this thing they are put in suddenly transports them to some far away place, they just know it does.
 
The Rev Kros = "That is one of the main problems with religion" . . . really, especially yours
 
sawyerloggingon = "Trying to understand the concept of "God" may be an exercise in futility" . . .
well, apart from knowing the Bible and Jesus .. an exercise in futility would be correct

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways ..
BUT in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son ..
whom he appointed heir of all things .. and through whom he made the universe . . .
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING ..
sustaining all things by his powerful word .. After he had provided purification for sins ..
he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven . . . . more on this issue

If there is some conciseness that created what we know as reality it may just be beyond our ability to comprehend
I agree .. if you were digging through a field for rocks and you found an arrow head ..
what does that tell you .. why is an arrow head different from a rock when they both are of the same substance
 
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dadman said:
sawyerloggingon = "Trying to understand the concept of "God" may be an exercise in futility" . . .
well, apart from knowing the Bible and Jesus .. an exercise in futility would be correct

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways ..
BUT in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son ..
whom he appointed heir of all things .. and through whom he made the universe . . .
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING ..
sustaining all things by his powerful word .. After he had provided purification for sins ..
he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven . . . . more on this issue
Click to expand...

You can't understand God by definition. God is infinite, our minds are not.
 
Rocket88 = "You can't understand God by definition. God is infinite, our minds are not" .. I agree
 
dadman said:
Locke and Load = "whether or not God condemns, allows, tolerates, or
even encourages homosexual behavior is hardly for us to decide" ..
no .. we really don't decide .. God has already decided.

It's really a no-brainer

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones . . . .
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another ..
Men committed indecent acts with other men ..
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion . . . . more on this issue

here's your sin




​
Click to expand...

Indeed, but there are many other things the bible tells us not to do that we do on a regular basis. Greed, lust, hate, anger, and envy just to name a few. And it says not have sex outside of marriage, which many Christians still do. However, that is why Christ came and died for our sins. All of them. Not just the minor ones, not just the ones he picks and chooses but ALL of them.

And who are we to say that homosexuality (if God considers it a sin) is a "worse" sin than any of the other sins we commit daily? The punishment for any sin is death and hell, so who are we to say which sins are "worse"?
 
dadman, by "chance" do you mean "random" or do you mean "non-deterministic"?
 
Locke and Load said:
The reason I have faith in Christianity are many to begin with, and in many ways still being developed/explored. Are you looking for reasons to believe in religion/faith in general or in Christianity vs. other religions?

Also on the issue of homosexuality (and all sins really)... whether or not God condemns, allows, tolerates, or even encourages homosexual behavior is hardly for us to decide. I believe that when each person's judgement day comes, God will let them know what he thinks of them perfectly fine without that individual being subjected to what we as humans think that God thinks of them. God did not put us on this earth to judge each other, we certainly have no right or responsibility to (as one of my pastors said, in terms of holiness/purity/free of sin or whatever you want to call it, we are ALL closer to Osama Bin Laden then we are to God).

Also, if you could repost your arguments on the origins of the universe or atleast their post number so that I can find them, I would enjoy seeing someone else's views on the matter.
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Sorry Im late in responding but if I'm correct you ask for other veiws on this subject on post#148.

My veiws are a bit more simple than others, it is my belef that we are all individual and all walk their own path believe what they believe or believe in nothing at all.

The fact that every individual is differant should tell us something.

As for me I have faith in God.
Now after that it gets complicated for it is my belief that God kinda somehow hepled start the universe on it's way laid the groundwork and planted the living organisms, and came back a couple of times but eventualy said well I gave them brains free will and a body they should be able to take care of themselves.

However, with free will comes power and money after a lot of wars death and killing of mankind and other livng creatures we're still working on that.

Then there's the unexplained things that happen they do say God works in mysterious ways so who's to know after all it is unexplained phenmena.

Then there's this thing about time you qouted in one of your post that according to scientific reserch the universe was created 13.7 billion years ago.
I would have to ask according to who's time Earth or Jupiter or Mercury this solar system or another this galaxy or another?
For if indeed the universe was created 13.7 billion years ago all the planets should be no older than 13.7 billion years old.
However we can't confirm that.

I have had at least one athiest and one religious person ridicule and critise my belief , but I remain and individual.
Only fear one thing and I don't think he resides on planet earth, only in my heart.:peace
 
Locke and Load = "The punishment for any sin is death and hell, so who are we to say which sins are "worse"?" .. I never said it was worse ..
you brought the issue up .. I just call it what God calls it . . . sin

For an example .. if you and I visited the Grand Canyon ..
you were walking along the edge and accidently slipped off the edge . . . . 30 seconds later .. WHAM !!!
I thought: "MAN !! that looks cool" . . . therefore .. I actually got 50 feet away from the edge ..
laced up my PF Flyers and started a run as fast as I could .. took a flying leap into the Canyon . . . . 30 seconds later .. WHAM !!!
question .. because I took a flying leap and you slipped off the edge . . . .

am I more dead than you ??


. . . more on this issue
 
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dadman said:
Locke and Load = "The punishment for any sin is death and hell, so who are we to say which sins are "worse"?" .. I never said it was worse ..
you brought the issue up .. I just call it what God calls it . . . sin

For an example .. if you and I visited the Grand Canyon ..
you were walking along the edge and accidently slipped off the edge . . . . 30 seconds later .. WHAM !!!
I thought: "MAN !! that looks cool" . . . therefore .. I actually got 50 feet away from the edge ..
laced up my PF Flyers and started a run as fast as I could .. took a flying leap into the Canyon . . . . 30 seconds later .. WHAM !!!
question .. because I took a flying leap and you slipped off the edge . . . .

am I more dead than you ??


. . . more on this issue
Click to expand...

That would depend on the religious view on suicide. A person whose worldview is based upon reason and science would say no, both are equally dead. A person of religious influence would say the jumper was condemned into hell. Their loved ones would spend the rest of their lives in anguish "thinking" you were spending eternity enduring unspeakable horrors and pain.
 
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