Inherent Differences Between Men and Women (1 Viewer)

[CLAX1911]

Unfortunately, not as much as we would like to think. The big change I have seen working with teenagers is their attitude toward gay people. They can’t understand what the big deal is all about that people get so upset. I was happy about that.

Yeah it's pretty cool seeing youngsters that don't care about it. I grew up in that time period where is the word gay to describe something that was lame.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

The main barriers keeping women from entering science and math aren't external, but internal. The obstacles are self-imposed... like lack of confidence, personal interest, or individual choices... not caused by outside forces like discrimination or lack of opportunity.

Hi Bodi,

Sorry, but I think it is a little more nuanced and less black and white. Yes, everybody has a choice and everybody should have a choice. No argument there.

But there are also some basic instincts. These may be developed stronger in some people than others. And yes this is very cliché, but these instincts determine that women not only CAN have children, they also want to raise them, protect them, and provide food for them. And men have similar instincts that drive them to collectively go hunting, and provide safety and security for the women and children.

In addition there are hormonal differences between genders that drive our 'needs' and 'wants'.

But it goes both ways. Some men want to make a career in healthcare. They are free to do so, but it is not exactly a majority of men that chooses that profession.

Like I have said earlier; Men and Women should have equal rights. There is no discussion about it. But that does not mean they are the same. Just look at a group of men and a group of women. Men are physically bigger and stronger. They are taller. They are heavier. Just those simple observations obviously result in some jobs being more easy for men than for women. And I think it is similarly likely, but a lot less visual, that our brains show similar difference, with similar consequences.

In my professional career, only once we had to hire a guy who was small, simply because none of us was small enough to get access to some equipment. So small can be good, but often in the heavy industry that is not the case...

And just out of curiosity, if you worked at HR and had to hire someone. Company policy is to create diversity on the work floor. but you have a dilemma. With the applications you have in front of you, you have 2 choices. You either hire 2 women, or you hire 1 man. Similarly you can argue that when you want to hire an experienced secretary who is well capable of multi-tasking, you probably end up with less male applicants and if forced to choose a men you may well find yourself in a position where you have to hire 2 guys.

And just like there are less girls interested in science, there are also less guys interesting in healthcare or haircare.

Sorry Bodi, I can not escape this feeling that you take this personal and are about to get angry on the subject. Please focus on what's important here. We should all have equal rights. But we should also have free choice. And choice is, obviously, gender influenced.


Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

I have 44,000 replies that prove I am not illiterate. You should read them.

I also have a STEM degree. How are your college classes coming along?

Yeah!

Finally!

We have an other I have a bigger penis than you competition!

Congratulations!

Joey

 

[The Mark]

Women Are Getting Into STEM Careers at a Faster Rate Than Men, Report Finds

Happy International Women in Engineering Day! And the latest data on gender in STEM from the NCSES 2023 report shows there's a lot to celebrate.

www.pcmag.com

the 2023 "Diversity in STEM" report from the National Center for Science and Engineering Statistics (NCSES) indicates that the gender gap is closing.

The report, which is published every two years, defines the "STEM workforce" as those with at least a bachelor's degree, as opposed to the "skilled technical workforce, including workers with a high level of technical knowledge but without a bachelor’s degree." It does not include a non-binary category.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

I think the notion that it's "conservative families" dissuading girls a bit over-simplistic, but the reasoning is still likely societal and not biological. Despite women still being a minority in STEM, we have seen their presence increase over the decades. It was around 8% in the 70s, and 28% in 2023. Not a massive jump, but still worth exploring why that jump occurred to begin with.

The reality is, once upon time, women made up close to 0% in most professions (and the blame was often put on their biology), and societal change is what lead to that percentage increasing.

Hi Blur,

350% is a massive jump in my book...

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Yeah it's pretty cool seeing youngsters that don't care about it. I grew up in that time period where is the word gay to describe something that was lame.

Hi Clax,

I am soo proud that my parents have never raised me like that! And they would have been 92 and 95 now! But I clearly remember the attitude you describe. It was all around us back than. It's still there, but fortunately the trend is declining, so we're still heading in the right direction.

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Socialization!

Or a lack of?

Those barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen didn't have much socialization.

Hi Renee and Dairyair,

Thank you!

Not often are 2 different aspects so well illustrated by simply applying the opposite. It clearly shows that many different aspects play a role here.

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

It's not about victimization it's about facts.

The fact is that boys are way more likely then girls to drop out of high school, way less likely to go to and graduate from college, etc.

Time for educational rescue mission for boys.

Hi Nolan,

So for all these years I thought I was to blame while in reality I was the victim all along?

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

I've been around thru the whole thing. Well, not '20s sufferage.

You were still liquid!

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Boys learn better from hands on engagement - from doing not reading what it is that they’re supposed to do.

And boys are active. Boys learn by doing. Boys - especially young boys - don’t do well sitting still.


(I’m not saying girls aren’t - I’m just pointing out a difference)

Hi BirdInHand,

When I look at other men's intellect, and there interests you can roughly divide the group in 2. In Dutch we refer to that as Alpha and Beta people. I am not sure if you use the same analogy in English, sorry. Anyways, the alpha people are generally regarded as people who find it easy to learn languages, history and arts, while the Beta people have much higher scores on subjects like Mathematics, Physics, and Chemistry and Biology.

Is it really that far fetched to stretch this to gender as well? Maybe, just maybe there are some other differences in our grey cells that we conveniently leave out in this whole discussion.

And may I point out a completely different aspect that nobody talks about. The first 15 years of my career I worked in a man's world. I than started to work in a factory as a supervisor and had 25 women and 5 men working with me. I found that not only very strange, but also very distractive. And I am just being brutally honest here. I love women. I am a sex addict. I have never in my life even touched a woman at work (or after for that matter). But I find it very distractive. I can do without that. I would function better.

Joey

 

[roguenuke]

Really? Provide a quote of a parent saying, "we encourage our boys to do well in homework while praising our daughters for cleaning up well and cooking good dinners."


I think ALL families encourage both boys and girls to do well in school. If you have direct quotes from an actual parent saying otherwise, please share. I'll wait. Probably forever.

The Duggars encourage their girls to only be homemakers. It is required of them. Many other families of that sort, those religious beliefs don't allow women to be anything other than homemakers, mothers, maybe midwife or something very domestic or they are kicked out of the family, religion.

When I went through NNPTC, we were told that about 40-50 percent of the civilian nuclear power workforce were former Navy nukes. But women had only been able to be in that program for less than 4 years when I joined, meaning none had completed a full required 6 year contract to go on to work in the civilian nuclear workforce at that time. This was the late 90s. That's already one strong way that women were indirectly kept mostly out of a specific STEM based industry, jobs just from hiring practices of the 20th century in nuclear power.

 

[roguenuke]

And I have three engineering degrees and attended three engineering schools and have worked with and led engineers throughout my career. I’ve been involved in outreach programs to get HS students interested in technical careers.

Many of the engineering fields interests men more than women. There is likely an evolutionary component to it. But to claim that it’s because conservative families dissuade girls from pursuing it is full on horse shit.

Because of social factors that begin before any children go to school. Girls tend to be encouraged to play with dolls and do things that are much more household related than boys, whereas many boys are encouraged to do things like play with dinosaurs, blocks, trains, cars, etc. Those sort of things can influence the interests of children at very young ages.

It only takes a few discouraging based on gender to cause an imbalance.

The Duggars and other families within the Quiverfull movement are a great example of a conservative families discouraging women from such pursuits. Another such group, also conservative is Doug Wilson and his church.

7 Theses on Educating Your Daughters | Blog & Mablog

Sharing Options Statement of the Issue: In the burgeoning reaction to egalitarian feminism, a reactionary subculture has started to take shape in the conservative evangelical world, one that is willing to disparage the idea of providing daughters with a rigorous education, particularly at the...

dougwils.com

There are many more examples like this, and these people have followings, people who believe in what they are teaching.

 

[roguenuke]

There has been an overwhelming campaign to get women into the field. Everything from outreach programs in colleges to gender specific scholarships to Ad Council campaigns, to professional women engineering societies, and countless other well-intentioned programs all designed to get women interested in engineering. And it’s been going on for 40 years. Certainly enough to overcome any subtle social discouragement.

And there are huge differences in the percentage of women in each discipline. I provide this as evidence that women choose the path they want to follow. Almost half of biomedical engineers are women. I propose this is because the path appeals to them.

Women report at a higher rate than men that they want to make a difference from a humanitarian sense when they enter engineering and often find their work is removed by several degrees and become disenchanted.

Those aren't enough because those campaigns aren't targeting young enough. If you have parents and religions influencing certain paths, which start influencing children before they start school, if they even go to public schools, then you are working against years of prior influence. Most of those programs to encourage girls into STEM fields don't even start until around Middle school, which is after 10 years of other influence.

 

[roguenuke]

Hi Glax,

Of course there is a biological component to it. We are not equal by design. There are many differences. Some more obvious than others. We should have equal rights. But if people think we claim equal rights because we actually are equal, well than you gonna be disappointed I think.

Joey.

We're not designed at all.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

We're not designed at all.

Hi Nuke,

I did not mean that in a literal sense of course. But I think one could argue that life is a design of nature. As are many of the beautiful displays we see around us. The Niagara Falls, Yellowstone, and the Smokey Mountains come to mind when I think of the US of A.

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Those aren't enough because those campaigns aren't targeting young enough. If you have parents and religions influencing certain paths, which start influencing children before they start school, if they even go to public schools, then you are working against years of prior influence. Most of those programs to encourage girls into STEM fields don't even start until around Middle school, which is after 10 years of other influence.

Hi Nuke,

I kinda agree with you here. But that is exactly why these changes take more than a generation. Because the kids have already been shaped at the age of 12. But not finished learning. What they learn, they will use to educate their own kids. And there you have that first generation that shapes their kids a little different. What example you want?

Health care, a man working as a nurse:

We went from unacceptable to frowned upon to mostly accepted.

Homosexuality:

We went from Unacceptable and it is a disease and I wanna hurt you to frowned upon to accepted by most.

Women in the military:

We went from illegal and unacceptable to frowned upon to careful tries with some countries even allowing women on subs now.

All of these changes took more than a generation. And all for the same reason you indicate. but keep in mind; Kids need to learn and study, but so do parents.


Joey

 

[roguenuke]

Hi Nuke,

I did not mean that in a literal sense of course. But I think one could argue that life is a design of nature. As are many of the beautiful displays we see around us. The Niagara Falls, Yellowstone, and the Smokey Mountains come to mind when I think of the US of A.

Joey

Nope, don't even agree with that. I believe we adapt, biology adapts to what works best within what is there, available. If we don't adapt, we die out. I will say, I think we may be just disagreeing on terminology though.

I think in this case, culture and upbringing have a lot to do with why women are not in STEM. We still have people today who actively discourage women, girls from being in STEM, or even any career outside the home. We have people who also just conform to the norms for bringing up their kids too, which may sound innocent, but does add to why boys may lean more towards STEM careers than girls, even from very early ages.

Look at what is considered boys' toys vice girls' toys. Even displays in stores, almost if not all til recently, were even labeled as "girls" and "boys" and that's where you found certain toys. I'm a little guilty of it too. My boys didn't have dolls. I would buy them for them if they wanted them, but I didn't just think about getting them dolls. It is part of cultural training. But I do encourage my nieces to play with blocks, with dinosaurs, with the toys my sons have. I grew at least a little.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Nope, don't even agree with that. I believe we adapt, biology adapts to what works best within what is there, available. If we don't adapt, we die out. I will say, I think we may be just disagreeing on terminology though.

I think in this case, culture and upbringing have a lot to do with why women are not in STEM. We still have people today who actively discourage women, girls from being in STEM, or even any career outside the home. We have people who also just conform to the norms for bringing up their kids too, which may sound innocent, but does add to why boys may lean more towards STEM careers than girls, even from very early ages.

Look at what is considered boys' toys vice girls' toys. Even displays in stores, almost if not all til recently, were even labeled as "girls" and "boys" and that's where you found certain toys. I'm a little guilty of it too. My boys didn't have dolls. I would buy them for them if they wanted them, but I didn't just think about getting them dolls. It is part of cultural training. But I do encourage my nieces to play with blocks, with dinosaurs, with the toys my sons have. I grew at least a little.

Hi Nuke,

No argument to what you bring in. I am just saying that there are more reasons.

Yes we need to adapt or we will die out. But should we aid that adaptation? And are we aiding that? But maybe it is better for this discussion to not open that can of worms as well. Lol.

But as to the whys. There is not one single reason that explains the differences between girls and boys. And I don't think you and me disagree on that. I think where we disagree is how much of an influence all these different influences have on a child. And both of our opinions have been shaped by the course of our lives. To bring more clarity on that some serious research should be done. And I think is needed. Because, never mind you and me argue about this, unfortunately, so do politicians. And if they have opinions without a factual basis for that, than that can not possibly lead to sound decision making now, can it?


Joey

 

[NolanVoyd]

Hi Nolan,

So for all these years I thought I was to blame while in reality I was the victim all along?

Joey

It's not about victimization it's about facts.

The fact is that boys are way more likely then girls to drop out of high school, way less likely to go to and graduate from college, etc.

Time for educational rescue mission for boys.

 

[dairyair]

I don't think that they are scared...



If it is not parents and teachers that are discouraging a person then it must be that person...



LOL


.

You seem to have a low regard for women.
You must think they are so meek and mild that they never want to leave the safety of home.

I think that thought is much aligned with a large minority.

You were taught to believe such things. That is not how women liberated themselves. They were the opposite of what you think women are.

 

[dairyair]

Hi Renee and Dairyair,

Thank you!

Not often are 2 different aspects so well illustrated by simply applying the opposite. It clearly shows that many different aspects play a role here.

Joey

Much to the dismay of a certain type of people, the world is far from a binary place.

There's near infinite options and reasons for everything regarding humanity.

 

[dairyair]

The main barriers keeping women from entering science and math aren't external, but internal. The obstacles are self-imposed... like lack of confidence, personal interest, or individual choices... not caused by outside forces like discrimination or lack of opportunity.

Really? Provide a quote of a parent saying, "we encourage our boys to do well in homework while praising our daughters for cleaning up well and cooking good dinners."


I think ALL families encourage both boys and girls to do well in school. If you have direct quotes from an actual parent saying otherwise, please share. I'll wait. Probably forever.

Women aren't just born being meek and lack motivation to be outside the home.

It is something they are taught.

While I can't find any person in this forum to have said exactly the quotes you want, I can find posts of people who think like those of the people who's quotes you seek.

For it was long thought that women should not be outside the home, but remain in the home to care for children and be subordinate to their husbands.

It was largely like that in USA up until the 1960s when women started to liberate themselves from barefoot and pregnant

 

[Bodi]

Hi Bodi,

Sorry, but I think it is a little more nuanced and less black and white.

Almost everything is more nuanced than black and white...

Yes, everybody has a choice and everybody should have a choice. No argument there.

In Western Society regarding employment, everybody does have a choice.

But there are also some basic instincts. These may be developed stronger in some people than others. And yes this is very cliché, but these instincts determine that women not only CAN have children, they also want to raise them, protect them, and provide food for them. And men have similar instincts that drive them to collectively go hunting, and provide safety and security for the women and children.

In addition there are hormonal differences between genders that drive our 'needs' and 'wants'.

But it goes both ways. Some men want to make a career in healthcare. They are free to do so, but it is not exactly a majority of men that chooses that profession.

Like I have said earlier; Men and Women should have equal rights. There is no discussion about it. But that does not mean they are the same. Just look at a group of men and a group of women. Men are physically bigger and stronger. They are taller. They are heavier. Just those simple observations obviously result in some jobs being more easy for men than for women. And I think it is similarly likely, but a lot less visual, that our brains show similar difference, with similar consequences.

In my professional career, only once we had to hire a guy who was small, simply because none of us was small enough to get access to some equipment. So small can be good, but often in the heavy industry that is not the case...

And just out of curiosity, if you worked at HR and had to hire someone. Company policy is to create diversity on the work floor. but you have a dilemma. With the applications you have in front of you, you have 2 choices. You either hire 2 women, or you hire 1 man. Similarly you can argue that when you want to hire an experienced secretary who is well capable of multi-tasking, you probably end up with less male applicants and if forced to choose a men you may well find yourself in a position where you have to hire 2 guys.

And just like there are less girls interested in science, there are also less guys interesting in healthcare or haircare.

That pretty much all falls under choice, as I said.

Sorry Bodi, I can not escape this feeling that you take this personal and are about to get angry on the subject. Please focus on what's important here. We should all have equal rights.

I am. Thank you.

But we should also have free choice. And choice is, obviously, gender influenced.


Joey

We do have free choice and any person of any gender can choose to attempt to gain any degree or any job that they want.




.

.

 

[Bodi]

You seem to have a low regard for women.

Why do you hate women?

You must think they are so meek and mild that they never want to leave the safety of home.

I am talking about every person... not just women.
You seem to think that women are inferior and can not make their own choices... I think the opposite.

I think that thought is much aligned with a large minority.

You were taught to believe such things. That is not how women liberated themselves. They were the opposite of what you think women are.

Thank God the man is here to explain to us what women are! LOL


.

 

[Bodi]

Women aren't just born being meek and lack motivation to be outside the home.

It is something they are taught.

While I can't find any person in this forum to have said exactly the quotes you want, I can find posts of people who think like those of the people who's quotes you seek.

For it was long thought that women should not be outside the home, but remain in the home to care for children and be subordinate to their husbands.

It was largely like that in USA up until the 1960s when women started to liberate themselves from barefoot and pregnant

What in the hell are you talking about? LOL

Do you think that a woman is incapable of entering course she wants to get an education that she wants in order to get a job that she wants?

I think women are absolutely capable.

.