If there is sufficient proof should Trump be indicted?

[DCCougar]

I would not want to see him incarcerated or detained.

What??? Why should he get off when anyone else wouldn't? He should be in prison. The law should be adhered to without fear or favor.

 

[DCCougar]

No for the documents, there's no mechanism for it.

Trump's taking of Top Secret documents is the biggest slam dunk of all his criminal acts. It's a prima facie violation of the Espionage Act.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Here you go again...putting the cart before the horse.

You should be waiting to find out if there is "sufficient proof" before you should ask if Trump should be indicted.

I'm surprised that your post number two in this thread.

How do you accomplish that so often?

 

[DCCougar]

...there is nothing saying that the President can't literally just declare things unclassified and not privileged information...

Irrelevant. Trump cannot declare that sensitive national security information does not pertain to national security. The Espionage Act, which he has apparently violated, does not mention "classified" information; it only speaks of national security information.

 

[Galactic Spin]

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Here we go again. Same questions over and over and over - and the results will be the same.

For the record, that last one you mentioned about "manipulation of values...." is a civil suit by the NY AG as she damn well knows she could never win a criminal case on that garbage.

Once upon a time, DOJ lied to and mislead a FISA judge who then signed a FISA warrant(s) allowing the democrats (Hillary Clinton, Obama, Biden, Garland, others) to spy on Trump/Trump 2016 campaign because democrats came up with the Russian Collusion hoax, which Special Counsel Mueller investigated for 22 months and cleared Trump.

All of the radical left's so-called "evidence" collected, invented, placed, or whatever is fruit of their poisonous tree and is therefore tainted as none of it can be trusted.

It is absolutely incredible how scared the radical left is of President Trump as I cannot think of any other person in history that an opposition party has tried so hard, gloves off, to eliminate for the sole purpose of totally discrediting and destroying Trump, his policies, and the Republican party so the democrats can become the sole political party of the United States and force total socialism along with their perversion upon us all. But now that the American people (who are nowhere near as stupid as the left thinks we all are) have seen what that opposition party has in store for us after nearly 2 years under the iron rule of Biden, voters will definitely begin cleaning house this November and again in 2024, be it Trump or DeSantis, who the left is already taking pot shots at.

There is nothing to indict President Trump or any of his children on as none have committed any crimes.

Come January 2023, WH oversight resumes and the Biden Family's crimes will then be investigated. Now that will be a show worthy of a Hollywood production.


Excellent post!!

Now try again. IF there is evidence...?

 

[Fishking]

Newsflash! Trump is no longer "the President." He's just a regular big mac-eating citizen. He is subject to the law like anybody else.

That's not a news flash, and it's irrelevant.

 

[DCCougar]

...Mueller investigated for 22 months and cleared Trump.

That is absolutely false, just like most of your egregiously misguided post.

 

[Fishking]

Irrelevant. Trump cannot declare that sensitive national security information does not pertain to national security. The Espionage Act, which he has apparently violated, does not mention "classified" information; it only speaks of national security information.

It's not irrelevant at all. It's 100% relevant to say that the EO applies/doesn't apply to a President.

 

[Fishking]

Trump's taking of Top Secret documents is the biggest slam dunk of all his criminal acts. It's a prima facie violation of the Espionage Act.

Yes, I'm sure you're desperate to believe it.

 

[DCCougar]

But i am not sure he committed an actual crime in regards to 1/6

It sure seems like he incited the riot. Did his early, brief mention of "being peaceful" make his later inciting language OK? His months-long actions prior to Jan 6 make it pretty clear that he was intent on disrupting and halting the transfer of power, and Jan 6 was his last gasp.

But OK, maybe that's not a slam dunk case. But his taking and hoarding of Top Secret materials -- and his lying about having returned them all -- that IS a slam dunk case. There's no way around it. The evidence is clear. He should already be in prison. He only gets gimme's on the golf course.

 

[DCCougar]

It looks like James is truly conducting a with hunt. Doesn't seem like much there .

Only 222 pages worth of shady dealings?

 

[DCCougar]

Yes, I'm sure you're desperate to believe it.

I notice you don't deny it.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Correct. But the way a President can handle information, with the authority of their position, makes it an unclear case. As much as people want to make fun of the idea, there is nothing saying that the President can't literally just declare things unclassified and not privileged information, because all the regulations surrounding it are an EO, which is derived off of the President's authority itself. It's also not unprecedented.

It’s Not Just Trump — LBJ Took Classified Documents Too

Donald Trump isn’t the only president to take government documents with him before leaving the White House: LBJ did it too.

theintercept.com

Not really unclear.

#1 The FPOTUS has no personal ownership claim to unclassified government documents that are identified as Presidential Records.

#2 The FPOTUS has no personal ownership claim to classified government documents.

(The government has shown prima facia evidence that the documents are classified, the FPOTUS is free to present evidence that he in fact declassified them prior to noon on January 20, 2021. However regardless the illegal activity is not contingent upon the documents actually still being classified.)

WW

 

[gdgyva]

It sure seems like he incited the riot. Did his early, brief mention of "being peaceful" make his later inciting language OK? His months-long actions prior to Jan 6 make it pretty clear that he was intent on disrupting and halting the transfer of power, and Jan 6 was his last gasp.

But OK, maybe that's not a slam dunk case. But his taking and hoarding of Top Secret materials -- and his lying about having returned them all -- that IS a slam dunk case. There's no way around it. The evidence is clear. He should already be in prison. He only gets gimme's on the golf course.

Maybe on the second one....and here is MY thinking on it

If you or I did something like that, it is an easy slam dunk....even with my old clearances, screwing around with top secret docs and info is going to send us to Leavenworth for a long long stay

But Trump WAS the President....i dont know how that changes the scenario, if at all

He wasnt just some government official, or some person in the military

The rules are different for the President as he and he alone, can declassify items

And i think that is why the AG is having a tough time on this.....

It is also part of the reason why Sec of State Clinton wasnt brought up on charges

Their job is dealing with this stuff on a day to day basis....

Now....if it is found out that Trump sold, gave away, or otherwise misused the information he had.....

Not only will they lock him up, i think they will throw away the key

 

[WorldWatcher]

Maybe on the second one....and here is MY thinking on it

If you or I did something like that, it is an easy slam dunk....even with my old clearances, screwing around with top secret docs and info is going to send us to Leavenworth for a long long stay

But Trump WAS the President....i dont know how that changes the scenario, if at all

He wasnt just some government official, or some person in the military

The rules are different for the President as he and he alone, can declassify items

And i think that is why the AG is having a tough time on this.....

It is also part of the reason why Sec of State Clinton wasnt brought up on charges

Their job is dealing with this stuff on a day to day basis....

Now....if it is found out that Trump sold, gave away, or otherwise misused the information he had.....

Not only will they lock him up, i think they will throw away the key

#1 None of the violation of criminal law cited as the basis for the pleading require that the documents held after FPOTUS was no longer POTUS on noon on January 20, 2021 are contingent upon the files being "classified".

#2 The government has presented prima facia evidence that the documents are classified, and as we have seen the FPOTUS himself (and his team) have continued to treat the documents as classified even after leaving office. So the FPOTUS is free to make a pleading in court that those documents are not classified as he declassified them prior to leaving office. But he has refused to make that claim outright in any court document to date.

WW

 

[Pound4abrown]

Lol this ****in guy is gonna claim Hillary Clinton was never investigated.

Yeah I scratched my head over that too. I mean, the Republican's have been investigating her for ****ing decades, three of them.

 

[Fishking]

Not really unclear.

#1 The FPOTUS has no personal ownership claim to unclassified government documents that are identified as Presidential Records.

#2 The FPOTUS has no personal ownership claim to classified government documents.

(The government has shown prima facia evidence that the documents are classified, the FPOTUS is free to present evidence that he in fact declassified them prior to noon on January 20, 2021. However regardless the illegal activity is not contingent upon the documents actually still being classified.)

WW

You're making the same mistake as everyone else and assuming that the documents are clearly classified anymore, which it isn't, because of the President's authority. Also, pretty sure every document there exists in digits on the WH network so there are no record deficiency issues.

 

[Nickyjo]

I do know that it has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

People are right, IMHO, that non-violent drug crimes should not result in prison.

But all other violent crimes should.

And many people (including me) think that they know the reason for there being so many other violent crimes in this country.

One of President Reagan's Cabinet members even explicitly spoke about the reason in a radio interview but the next day quickly apologized for being so frank. We all are expected (especially in 2022) to keep mum on the reason.

Have a nice day!

What are we keeping mum about: income distribution? breakdown of the family? drug use in cities and rural America? too many guns available? legacy of discrimination?

 

[WorldWatcher]

You're making the same mistake as everyone else and assuming that the documents are clearly classified anymore, which it isn't, because of the President's authority. Also, pretty sure every document there exists in digits on the WH network so there are no record deficiency issues.

Not a mistake. The documents are clearly classified as such has been presented by the DOJ and Judge Dearie who has given the FPOTUS the chance to make an affirmative claim in court under oath that he in fact declassified them and then provide supporting testimony and documentation. Something the FPOTUS has refused to do.

Question: Which is your position? Documents are classified or declassified or information is classified or declassified?


WW

 

[What if...?]

Here you go again...putting the cart before the horse.

You should be waiting to find out if there is "sufficient proof" before you should ask if Trump should be indicted.

You wouldn’t consider video and audio from multiple angles and a signed confession “sufficient proof”.

You and I both know that.

 

[soap box]

What??? Why should he get off when anyone else wouldn't? He should be in prison. The law should be adhered to without fear or favor.

I can say I'm not opposed to jail time. I just don't think it's the best outcome because the martyrdom will be pervasive. I think the martyrdom will endure for many years and make it harder to heal the division. But if he goes to jail I wouldn't object.

 

[Ethel2]

You're making the same mistake as everyone else and assuming that the documents are clearly classified anymore, which it isn't, because of the President's authority. Also, pretty sure every document there exists in digits on the WH network so there are no record deficiency issues.

What is wrong with the MAGATS here?
Whether or not the documents stolen by the jackass were classified is irrelevant to the charge of illegally possessing government documents and storing them in an unsecured location. Its also irrelevant to the charge of ignoring a lawfully issued subpoena and lying to the FBI, also a crime. If it turns out that some of those stolen documents were classified and a national security risk then espionage charges should be added to all the other charges.
Furthermore, MAGATS ignore the fact that there IS a procedure that must be followed to declassify documents. Its been published here many times. You can't declassify documents "just by thinking about it", even if you are the current president.
Its really not all that complicated.

 

[Nickyjo]

Here you go again...putting the cart before the horse.

You should be waiting to find out if there is "sufficient proof" before you should ask if Trump should be indicted.

I don't get it. No one is insisting here that there now exists evidence to indict Trump. The question before us is whether or not he should be indicted if such evidence appears. Try substituting "supposing," "assuming" or "in the event that," given that "if" seems to confuse you.

Let me make it easier for you. Oh, Mycroft, assuming evidence appears that Trump committed crimes, would it be appropriate to indict him? Or, if you prefer, tet's forget about Trump: assuming witnesses and video show you robbing a bank, should you be indicted?

 

[DCCougar]

Now....if it is found out that Trump sold, gave away, or otherwise misused the information he had.....

Well, he definitely misused the information by taking the Top Secret documents and stashing them in his office at his private residence. Open and shut!

 

[Fishking]

What is wrong with the MAGATS here?

Dismissed