scourge99 said:
Fluffyninja said:
You simply cannot accept that there are concepts (such as faith) which may lie outside your (and my) ability to comprehend.
If something is outside the human mind's ability to comprehend (comprehend - to understand the nature or meaning of; grasp with the mind; perceive) then how is it that you can describe or make any sense of it?
I can describe it because of what I
READ in God's Holy Word, and what I
FEEL through interaction with others of my faith, and through God's divine intervention into my "spiritual life".
You can't claim something is incomprehensible then go on to describe it as anything more than incomprehensible! That is a blatant contradiction. See above in red.
With that said, it appears that you believe "faith"
can be comprehended. Specifically, by "what you
READ in God's Holy Word, and what you
FEEL through interaction with others of your faith, and through God's divine intervention into your "spiritual life". "
Please explain how these things describe "faith". You made the claims now please back them up with more than assertions.
Can I PROVE any of this using YOUR standards of proof based on a strictly "earthly" and "humanistic" logic? No.
I have already told you that I will evaluate your claims on whatever means or method you propose as long as you present this means or method clearly and unambiguously.
Logic and reason, like all things, are held tentatively. If you have some other means or method which can be verified or confirmed as reliable then please present it. Otherwise, please stop discrediting yourself by making claims you are unwilling or unable or backup.
Do I need to justify my beliefs to others to make them "real enough" for me? LOL, no. Why should I, I am happy in my beliefs and have no desire to PROVE the existence of my GOD to anyone else.
I agree. You can believe whatever you want. But if you insist on publicly proclaiming and preaching that your beliefs are true in a debate forum, then you shouldn't be surprised if others such as myself disagree and point out flaws and frailties in your claims.
You seem to be the one on a never-ending QUEST to disprove the existence of God or of gods, and to debunk religion.
This is a DEBATE FORUM. Your participation is voluntary. Why is it that you are surprised when others question and object to unsubstantiated assertions in such a place?
"Most Traditional Theists appear to be accustomed to “preaching to the choir” – telling their stories in a “Christian friendly” environment where they will not be asked to substantiate claims or stories with anything other than personal emotions and bible quotes.
It must be very difficult for people from non-challenging environments to engage in debate when their pronouncements are opposed by reasoned and critical non-religious views – and when they encounter searching questions about tales told and claims made.
Many appear to have never thought to question water magically turning into wine or dead bodies coming back to life after days in the grave – if that is what they have been taught to accept (particularly if since before they developed discernment and judgment).
Modern or Liberal Theists appear to have reconciled their beliefs with reality – and make few, if any, claims that they possess special knowledge or understanding of supernatural creatures or events. That attitude is not well accepted by more traditional Christians (or Theists of other persuasions).
Evidently the mere thought that some bible tales may not be literally true sends shock waves through the belief system of traditionalists. If Mary wasn’t actually a virgin (and there is no evidence that she was beyond a story), then maybe Jesus didn’t walk on water or come back to life. Oh my, that might indicate that Jesus wasn’t “divine”, was not THE “son of god” (only perhaps "A" son of god – which could be claimed for anyone).
When one’s basic beliefs are questioned, they often feel compelled to defend with whatever is at hand. In debate such efforts are often transparent and are easily defeated unless they can be supported by evidence (other than the source being supported). "
You also seem to have this need to PROVE to posters at DP that what makes religious folk happy, really shouldn't make them happy at all.
For some reason, you are motivated by the assumption that all people of Faith (Christians mostly) are out to PROVE to the rest of the World that their beliefs are infallible based on scientific reasoning.
I wish you luck in your unending quest to discredit the faithful. Perhaps some day you may find harmony in your life and not see the need to discredit others in order to substantiate your own perspectives. :mrgreen:
Unless a person claims to be omniscient (or at least a mind reader), they CANNOT know the thoughts of another. Claiming to do so ruins credibility.
In Internet debate, credibility is critically important since there is so little else to go on. Squandering credibility by claiming the ability to see into the minds of others may not be the best tactic. But, to each their own.
My method is FAITH....which is measured in how strongly one believes in a particular outcome
EVEN if can't be proven logically or scientifically.
Yes, you have said this. And I have responded.
You do not claim to offer a test to truth
-> you cannot make a valid claim to truth
You do not claim to offer a way to adjudicate between conflicting faith claims
-> your faith claims are indistinguishable from imagination and all manner of made-up claims, including demonstrably false ones.
If you cannot apply some type of reason or comprehension to what you believe then you have nonsensical beliefs, literally. Without providing a framework, means, or method for making sense of your beliefs then you cannot claim them as coherent, let alone valid.
If all you wish to do is present your beliefs, then you have done so. But if you think that your beliefs are somehow valid, true, or reasonable, in ANY proposed framework then you are mistaken.
I only claimed that it WORKS for me, spiritually, not that it works in your logical sequencing.
What does that even mean? "it works for me spiritually".
I HAVE NEVER ONCE asserted that my beliefs are TRUE based on YOUR requirements. This is your ad hominem.
1) I don't think you understand what an ad hominem is
2) You are unable or unwilling to demonstrate that you beliefs are true under ANY framework or using any means or method.
This whole debate you have presented NOTHING but assertions and conjecture. Such claims are empty, hollow, and worthless in debate. They are indistinguishable from pure imagination.
you just can't seem to accept that even educated people, may just have some part of their life that they "turn over" to faith in the unknown and unproveable.
On the contrary, I very well accept that MANY people do believe such things. Does the acknowledgment that people do believe such things make their beliefs true, rational, reasonable, coherent, or sensible on ANY level? No.