• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Poverty

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Get rid of the foodstamps and 50 million lazy people will strive to find a job, work hard, grow the economy and reduce the unemployment rate. Hunger Makes People Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe About Poverty - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities

Hunger itself might not make people work harder, but the fear of being hungry does. If we provide people who accept poverty with just enough money to get by, thats all they are going to do - just get by. If we tell them that they have to fend for themselves, they will fend for themselves, make a living, and sometimes end up making a darned good living, far in excess of "just getting by".

Our means tested social safety nets lock people into poverty.

In another thread, someone tried to disprove that by saying something to the effect of "would you trade your paycheck for a welfare check". When that question is posed to anyone who is middle class or above, the expected answer is obviously "no". But when we ask that question to people who have decent jobs, we are asking the wrong group of people, what's the point of asking that question to someone who is self supportive and productive?

Reverse the question to ask "would you trade your welfare check for a paycheck and the responsibilities that come with having to have a real job, and ask it to a welfare slacker who is perfectly happy living in poverty, and the answer would likely be "hell know, I'd rather take a smidgen of free money with no responsibilities, than to have to worry about a job that includes responsibilities and requires me getting some skills."
 

What if...?

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
37,064
Reaction score
15,180
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Hunger itself might not make people work harder, but the fear of being hungry does. If we provide people who accept poverty with just enough money to get by, thats all they are going to do - just get by. If we tell them that they have to fend for themselves, they will fend for themselves, make a living, and sometimes end up making a darned good living, far in excess of "just getting by".

Our means tested social safety nets lock people into poverty.

In another thread, someone tried to disprove that by saying something to the effect of "would you trade your paycheck for a welfare check". When that question is posed to anyone who is middle class or above, the expected answer is obviously "no". But when we ask that question to people who have decent jobs, we are asking the wrong group of people, what's the point of asking that question to someone who is self supportive and productive?

Reverse the question to ask "would you trade your welfare check for a paycheck and the responsibilities that come with having to have a real job, and ask it to a welfare slacker who is perfectly happy living in poverty, and the answer would likely be "hell know, I'd rather take a smidgen of free money with no responsibilities, than to have to worry about a job that includes responsibilities and requires me getting some skills."

I always thought welfare for the able bodied should consist of a bunk in a dorm, a lukewarm common shower and a couple meals a day of Bachelor Chow.

And a bus pass.
 

head of joaquin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
12,029
Reaction score
3,530
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Getting rid of food stamps for people who can work but won't work is the issue not hunger, nice try though.

It's virtually impossible for able bodied adults to get food stamps. Virtually all food stamps go to families with poor kids or the elderly.

Nice try with the Welfare Queen meme however. It's best to steer clear of facts if you're a conservative ideologue.

http://feedingamerica.org/how-we-fi...-assistance-program/snap-myths-realities.aspx

Susan Blumenthal, M.D.: Debunking Myths About Food Stamps
 
Last edited:

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
89,923
Reaction score
53,628
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

It's virtually impossible for able bodied adults to get food stamps. Virtually all food stamps go to families with poor kids or the elderly.

Nice try with the Welfare Queen meme however. It's best to steer clear of facts if you're a conservative ideologue.

SNAP (Food Stamps): Facts, Myths and Realities

Susan Blumenthal, M.D.: Debunking Myths About Food Stamps

Being an able bodied adult and having kids are not mutually exclusive things. If you make less than the federal poverty level you are no less poor (or hungry) simply because you have no kids. What you have described is exactly why the "welfare queen" needs to have children to get "earn" that title. Just how does this help the nation?
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
89,923
Reaction score
53,628
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Get rid of the foodstamps and 50 million lazy people will strive to find a job, work hard, grow the economy and reduce the unemployment rate. Hunger Makes People Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe About Poverty - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities

Yep. One only has to observe the efforts of illegal aliens to prove that point. If the social "safety net" programs provide benefits that exceed those possible with full time mimimum wage employment then it does not take a rocket scientist to see that one could prefer to pass up that "opportunity" and remain on the dole.
 

MusicAdventurer

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
Messages
1,034
Reaction score
268
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Hunger itself might not make people work harder, but the fear of being hungry does. If we provide people who accept poverty with just enough money to get by, thats all they are going to do - just get by. If we tell them that they have to fend for themselves, they will fend for themselves, make a living, and sometimes end up making a darned good living, far in excess of "just getting by".

Our means tested social safety nets lock people into poverty.

In another thread, someone tried to disprove that by saying something to the effect of "would you trade your paycheck for a welfare check". When that question is posed to anyone who is middle class or above, the expected answer is obviously "no". But when we ask that question to people who have decent jobs, we are asking the wrong group of people, what's the point of asking that question to someone who is self supportive and productive?

Reverse the question to ask "would you trade your welfare check for a paycheck and the responsibilities that come with having to have a real job, and ask it to a welfare slacker who is perfectly happy living in poverty, and the answer would likely be "hell know, I'd rather take a smidgen of free money with no responsibilities, than to have to worry about a job that includes responsibilities and requires me getting some skills."

There are supposed to be safety guards against people using the system like that. For example, they have to be looking for a job etc. Still, what are we to do with all the legitimate cases, that actually require assistance? As I understand it, the amount of assistance they receive is not that great and most people supplement it with under the table jobs and or illegal endeavors. What I say is why not weed out the "slackers" by somehow motivating them to get off the system. To do this though, we need to reward their efforts and make it so there is a clear benefit to getting off welfare. Many people are afraid to get off welfare for several reasons:

1.) they are afraid that they will lose their healthcare and not be able to get it back
2.) there are cut offs that make it so they will actually be worse off if they get off the system (e.g. because they may loose healthcare and not have enough money in their new job to take care of it)
3.) other assistance like housing assistance has people on waiting lists; people on welfare know this and so they are afraid to get a higher paying job because if they something fell through or things didn't work out financially with healthcare etc. ... then they would go back on the waiting list if they needed help again

and the list goes on and on...

What you may be surprised to know is that humans want to feel productive. We need to feel needed and important. These are strong motivations. They also don't really enjoy living in poverty on welfare... they just do it out of necessity or at least perceived necessity. However, couple the dead end jobs, broken safety net system and a country that is stricken with greed and corruption (certain corporate affairs come to mind), and we have big problems. A few people using the system should be the least of our concerns. These are easy fixes when compared with the corporate evil and crime that occurs every day.
 

head of joaquin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
12,029
Reaction score
3,530
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Being an able bodied adult and having kids are not mutually exclusive things. If you make less than the federal poverty level you are no less poor (or hungry) simply because you have no kids. What you have described is exactly why the "welfare queen" needs to have children to get "earn" that title. Just how does this help the nation?

Yes, let's punish poor kids to get at their putative feckless parents.

I think this sums up conservatism quite nicely.

Meanwhile, do you want to engage the facts or not: 80% of food stamps go poor families with either kids or the elderly. You seem axious to see them suffer.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
89,923
Reaction score
53,628
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Yes, let's punish poor kids to get at their putative feckless parents.

I think this sums up conservatism quite nicely.

Meanwhile, do you want to engage the facts or not: 80% of food stamps go poor families with either kids or the elderly. You seem axious to see them suffer.

Only a liberal sees not getting their "fair share" of the wages earned by others as a punishment. ;)
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

...and here I thought there was a job shortage. :roll:
 

head of joaquin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
12,029
Reaction score
3,530
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Only a liberal sees not getting their "fair share" of the wages earned by others as a punishment. ;)

Translated: you are stuck ignoring the facts. Keep the Welfare Queen meme going. It's all you got.
 

shrubnose

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
19,463
Reaction score
8,732
Location
Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

There are supposed to be safety guards against people using the system like that. For example, they have to be looking for a job etc. Still, what are we to do with all the legitimate cases, that actually require assistance? As I understand it, the amount of assistance they receive is not that great and most people supplement it with under the table jobs and or illegal endeavors. What I say is why not weed out the "slackers" by somehow motivating them to get off the system. To do this though, we need to reward their efforts and make it so there is a clear benefit to getting off welfare. Many people are afraid to get off welfare for several reasons:

1.) they are afraid that they will lose their healthcare and not be able to get it back
2.) there are cut offs that make it so they will actually be worse off if they get off the system (e.g. because they may loose healthcare and not have enough money in their new job to take care of it)
3.) other assistance like housing assistance has people on waiting lists; people on welfare know this and so they are afraid to get a higher paying job because if they something fell through or things didn't work out financially with healthcare etc. ... then they would go back on the waiting list if they needed help again

and the list goes on and on...

What you may be surprised to know is that humans want to feel productive. We need to feel needed and important. These are strong motivations. They also don't really enjoy living in poverty on welfare... they just do it out of necessity or at least perceived necessity. However, couple the dead end jobs, broken safety net system and a country that is stricken with greed and corruption (certain corporate affairs come to mind), and we have big problems. A few people using the system should be the least of our concerns. These are easy fixes when compared with the corporate evil and crime that occurs every day.




Lots of people have simple answers to difficult problems.

That have been tried and don't work.




"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." ~ Terry Pratchett
 

MusicAdventurer

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
Messages
1,034
Reaction score
268
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Lots of people have simple answers to difficult problems.

That have been tried and don't work.

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." ~ Terry Pratchett

Are you saying that the answer is education and cultural change?
 

shrubnose

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
19,463
Reaction score
8,732
Location
Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Are you saying that the answer is education and cultural change?




Both are needed and will come with the passage of time.
 

shrubnose

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
19,463
Reaction score
8,732
Location
Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Yes, let's punish poor kids to get at their putative feckless parents.

I think this sums up conservatism quite nicely.

Meanwhile, do you want to engage the facts or not: 80% of food stamps go poor families with either kids or the elderly. You seem axious to see them suffer.




Any society that doesn't take care of children, the elderly and ill is not one that I would want to be part of.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Yes, let's punish poor kids to get at their putative feckless parents.

I think this sums up conservatism quite nicely.

Meanwhile, do you want to engage the facts or not: 80% of food stamps go poor families with either kids or the elderly. You seem axious to see them suffer.

I totally get your point, but, I just think there is a better way of helping poor kids, than by incentivizing their parents to be less productive, which is exactly what means tested welfare does.

Notice that when I talk about welfare, I try to always use the modifier "means tested". It's not government benefits that locks people into poverty, it's the means testing of them. When government benefits are provided to everyone more or less equally, then this "locking into poverty" effect doesn't happen, because people who receive government benefits don't lose them when they get a job, or a better paying one.

While I am totally against the free and reduced school lunch program, I totally support having "free" meals for EVERY child at school. I also support government paid for daycare/childcare/Preschool - for everyone who choses to take advantage of such. I also support having old age insurance for everyone, regardless of income or wealth levels, so that no person starves or goes homeless just because they became elderly or infirm.

One of the basic components of "fair" is based upon "equal".
 
Last edited:

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Only a liberal sees not getting their "fair share" of the wages earned by others as a punishment. ;)

Seems to me that you missed that he was saying that we shouldn't punish children for having terrible parents.

Or at least that's what I thought he was getting at.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Lots of people have simple answers to difficult problems.

That have been tried and don't work.




"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." ~ Terry Pratchett

Lots of "difficult" problems aren't so difficult to someone who sees things clearly. When complicated problems are solved piece by piece, they suddenly seem to be fairly simple problems.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Are you saying that the answer is education and cultural change?

Is that what that meant? I thought he was saying that we should burn poor people at the stake.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

Any society that doesn't take care of children, the elderly and ill is not one that I would want to be part of.

Ditto dat. those three things are actually the most valuable things in society. And at some point, we are all either children, elderly or ill (at least one of those three).
 

paddymcdougall

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
3,032
Reaction score
1,687
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

My stepdaughter got food stamps for a couple months; she got laid off from a job, no severance, no unemployment, and it took a couple months for her to find another job. I'm glad food stamps were there for here. Being young (early 20s) she had no savings. We took care of some of her bills. Glad she was able to find a job in just two months; she was one of the lucky ones, plus she lived in an area not hit as hard by recession.

Food stamps program works; it's not abused very much (and certainly, when abuse is proven, the person abusing it should be punished); and it helps those in need.

Believe me, getting food stamps did NOT stop her from looking for work! It just helped tide her over.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

My kid works at an inner-city convenance store. He claims that most of the food sales that the store makes are paid for with EBT. Just the other day I noticed an ice cream truck that had a sign that said "we take EBT". Not long ago this guy standing outside of a liquor store offered to sell me food stamps. And a friend of mine told me that his daughters babydaddy was taking her food stamps and swapping them for beer.

Maybe I am wrong, but just based upon my personal observations, looks to me like food stamps are frequently misused.

Personally, for a while in college when I became unexpectedly unemployed, I would buy week old bread, 5 loaves for a buck, at a local grocery store and a tub of margarine for 99¢ or occasionally peanut butter for $1.99, and live mostly on that for a week. Granted that was 30 years ago, but even at todays prices, I could feed myself for less than $10 a week if I had to.
 
Last edited:

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

My kid works at an inner-city convenance store. He claims that most of the food sales that the store makes are paid for with EBT. Just the other day I noticed an ice cream truck that had a sign that said "we take EBT". Not long ago this guy standing outside of a liquor store offered to sell me food stamps. And a friend of mine told me that his daughters babydaddy was taking her food stamps and swapping them for beer.

Maybe I am wrong, but just based upon my personal observations, looks to me like food stamps are highly misused.

They are, but estimates I have seen say the fraud has dropped from about 4 to about 1% since they switched to EBT. Enforcement efforts are not focused on the beneficiaries so much as the stores that do it by ringing up booze as bread or faking a charge and splitting the amount 50/50 with the beneficiary in cash. Targeting the stores is easier because they can use computers to flag suspicious activity and then set up the sting buys at those locations.
 

head of joaquin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
12,029
Reaction score
3,530
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Re: Hunger Makes Pple Work Harder, and Other Stupid Things We Used to Believe Abt Pov

I totally get your point, but, I just think there is a better way of helping poor kids, than by incentivizing their parents to be less productive, which is exactly what means tested welfare does.

Notice that when I talk about welfare, I try to always use the modifier "means tested". It's not government benefits that locks people into poverty, it's the means testing of them. When government benefits are provided to everyone more or less equally, then this "locking into poverty" effect doesn't happen, because people who receive government benefits don't lose them when they get a job, or a better paying one.

While I am totally against the free and reduced school lunch program, I totally support having "free" meals for EVERY child at school. I also support government paid for daycare/childcare/Preschool - for everyone who choses to take advantage of such. I also support having old age insurance for everyone, regardless of income or wealth levels, so that no person starves or goes homeless just because they became elderly or infirm.

One of the basic components of "fair" is based upon "equal".

An important distinction. Needless to say, you'll get no conservative fans from this point of view.
 
Top Bottom