How Serious Is This? Consider What The FBI Would Do To Us

[fmw]

We don't know yet how the upper level GOP representatives like Ted Cruz or Rick Scott (who both made outlandish statements) will react. But it's a safe bet that most of the MAGA crowd, the Republican base, will believe this is a frame up, planted evidence, unjustified raid, etc. Trump could have an actual nuclear bomb and they wouldn't care. They would want him to detonate it in California or New York. There is little hope for those folks.

The problem here is that opposing sides are defending from positions of ignorance. We have no idea what was in the boxes. There isn't a soul on this thread that has any information beyond the fact that there was an FBI raid. People really do need to settle down.

 

[iguanaman]

I have consistently pointed out that Trump appears to have awfully taken and unlawfully retained government documents. This is not splitting hairs, it is being accurate, especially when people are making the claim that said documents were stolen.

Taking Govt. documents to your home is theft. He was not even President when they arrived. They are always Govt. property too.

 

[cpwill]

Taking Govt. documents to your home is theft. He was not even President when they arrived. They are always Govt. property too.

The President can take those documents. He wasn't President when told to give them back, and unlawfully retained them.

 

[iguanaman]

The President can take those documents. He wasn't President when told to give them back, and unlawfully retained them.

Presidential records and federal records belong to the United States government. Only personal records can be taken and retained after leaving government service. Under the Presidential Records Act (PRA), these are (1) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election and to the election of a particular individual or individuals to federal, state, or local office that “have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President;” and (2) materials relating to private political associations. 44 U.S.C. §2201. Calendars that contain official appointments and other records containing both official and political material are the property of the government and must be retained. It is important to understand special rules that apply under the PRA to most of the Executive Office of the President (EOP), including the White House Office, Office of the Vice President, the entire National Security Council staff, and other EOP components… Under the PRA, a small category of materials in your office could count as “personal” … the print out of the photo you took with your mom in front of the West Wing during her tour is probably a personal record that can come with you in your box along with your coffee mug. But everything related to doing your job, in essence, is a presidential record that belongs to the government, no matter what format it is in or how it is stored.

https://www.justsecurity.org/73265/...a-presidential-transition-is-a-federal-crime/

 

[DreamsAndNightmares]

Honestly, keep saying you aren't stuck in a cult hivemind while defending Dear Leader for taking top secret/nuclear documents! Absolutely sickening.

If you libs/leftists aren't subbed to Beau of the Fifth Column on YT I strongly recommend it. Short and to the point videos. He's a deep thinker and a quick wit.

Anyways, here are a few of his thoughts on the news, particularly about the Top Secret SCI-designated documents:

"[TS/SCI documents] are so secret they can only be viewed in a room specifically designed to protect secrets."

"[Some say], 'If I did this they would've already arrested me' No, if you did this you'd be in a basement somewhere being interrogated until you talked, and they would not hold anything back."

"Some say], 'I'd be looking at 10-20.' No, if you took SCI documents, had the opportunity to return them, elected not to, and went about your day probably meeting with foreign nationals, no you wouldn't be looking at 10-20. 10-20 would be what the groundskeeper tells your family when they go to visit you. Row 10, Plot 20."

"If you choose to stand beside this man politically after this, you never get to talk about supporting the troops again because you are putting them at risk. You never get to talk about wanting a strong country again, because you're weakening it. You never get to talk about how diversity training is weakening the military, because nothing weakens it more than not being able to protect its secrets."

Crazy how we home that one day we need to worry about the robots taking over... but never knew how easy it would be to turn others into robots.

 

[cpwill]

Presidential records and federal records belong to the United States government. Only personal records can be taken and retained after leaving government service. Under the Presidential Records Act (PRA), these are (1) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election and to the election of a particular individual or individuals to federal, state, or local office that “have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President;” and (2) materials relating to private political associations. 44 U.S.C. §2201. Calendars that contain official appointments and other records containing both official and political material are the property of the government and must be retained. It is important to understand special rules that apply under the PRA to most of the Executive Office of the President (EOP), including the White House Office, Office of the Vice President, the entire National Security Council staff, and other EOP components… Under the PRA, a small category of materials in your office could count as “personal” … the print out of the photo you took with your mom in front of the West Wing during her tour is probably a personal record that can come with you in your box along with your coffee mug. But everything related to doing your job, in essence, is a presidential record that belongs to the government, no matter what format it is in or how it is stored.

https://www.justsecurity.org/73265/...a-presidential-transition-is-a-federal-crime/

Correct. The President can take those documents. He wasn't President when told to give them back, and unlawfully retained them.

 

[cpwill]

Taking Govt. documents to your home is theft.

This is not inherently true at all. I have government documents in my home at this moment, because I am authorized to, and they are supposed to stay with me. If the government ordered me to return those documents, and I refused, then them being in my home would become unlawful.

He was not even President when they arrived.

Maybe. I've not seen a detailed itinerary. He was, however, when he took them.

They are always Govt. property too.

Generally, but not always.

Records Disposition Overview

Disposition means those actions taken regarding Federal records after they are no longer needed in office space to conduct current agency business. These actions include:​

​

• Transfer of records to agency storage facilities or NARA records centers.
• Transfer of records from one Federal agency to another.
• Transfer of permanent records to the National Archives of the United States.
• Disposal of temporary records no longer needed to conduct agency business, usually by destruction or occasionally by donation.

 

[Metric Mouse]

That's a dishonest summary of that video. It's linked right there in case anyone wants to watch it for themselves. It was a walkthrough of the devastating impacts on the people at the bottom of what an 'accelerating' path would be, that it won't hurt those the action is intended to hurt at the top who will be in their compounds, doing fine, and that it will drive the people into the arms of the U.S. military.

So you didn't watch it or are lying.

Of course I watched it. It was a pro ar 15 accelerationist prepper warning other pro ar 15 accelerationist preppers of what would be needed to survive the anarchist prepper revolution they desire.

Did the 5th column fool you? That's kinda their goal...

 

[Metric Mouse]

You are either ignorant or lying. Either way you're talking out of your ass. He is in fact anti-accelerationist. The video below is a great retort to the "tear it down" advocates like Bannon. He advocates a build it up, lend a hand approach. Quite the opposite of an accelerationist.

Starting at 9:54
"Not just does it [accelerating collapse] make it worse, it doesn't work, it hurts people. This isn't the way to go about anything. All you do is hurt people.

I personally started looking left because I got tired of watching people suffer. I get it, I really do. You're angry, the system is messed up, it's broke, it's also not sustainable. All this stuff, eventually it's going to happen with or without your help. Climate - there's going to be a whole bunch of things that can cause this situation to happen. Your anger is a gift, use it to help rather than to hurt. Start building the capacity to answer these questions. Start building power at the local level. Start building that network that can help people rather than put them in an even worse situation. That is probably a much better use of your time, becuase you can help people now. You can start with that now, you don't have to wait."

11:47 "If you really care about those people being hurt by the system that exists today, you don't want to make it worse for them. And that's what will happen."

He's literally telling accelerationists how to prepare for the coming collapse they desire, framed by a backdrop of prepper bullshit, having defended ar 15s as not worth banning

Dude, he's not hiding anything. He's telling you what he's going to tell you, telling you, and then telling you what he's told you. He's 5th column. It's like... you're falling for it.

 

[JasperL]

Of course I watched it. It was a pro ar 15 accelerationist prepper warning other pro ar 15 accelerationist preppers of what would be needed to survive the anarchist prepper revolution they desire.

No, you're lying. But people can watch if for themselves. Unlike you I linked to the video.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

This is not inherently true at all. I have government documents in my home at this moment, because I am authorized to, and they are supposed to stay with me. If the government ordered me to return those documents, and I refused, then them being in my home would become unlawful.




Maybe. I've not seen a detailed itinerary. He was, however, when he took them.




Generally, but not always.

Records Disposition Overview

Disposition means those actions taken regarding Federal records after they are no longer needed in office space to conduct current agency business. These actions include:​

​

• Transfer of records to agency storage facilities or NARA records centers.
• Transfer of records from one Federal agency to another.
• Transfer of permanent records to the National Archives of the United States.
• Disposal of temporary records no longer needed to conduct agency business, usually by destruction or occasionally by donation.

You realize, of course, that you have expressed a process, dont you?

Apparently, that process wasn't followed, and as such, no matter the document, his taking it was illegal, even if done while he was in office. The President is not authorized to take what he wants when he wants to, no matter how many times people make that claim.

 

[LostInSeattle]

He's literally telling accelerationists how to prepare for the coming collapse they desire, framed by a backdrop of prepper bullshit, having defended ar 15s as not worth banning

Dude, he's not hiding anything. He's telling you what he's going to tell you, telling you, and then telling you what he's told you. He's 5th column. It's like... you're falling for it.

I fail to see how you reconcile your assertion above with the first paragraph of his that I quoted.
"Not just does it [accelerating collapse] make it worse, it doesn't work, it hurts people. This isn't the way to go about anything. All you do is hurt people."
Please explain.
Also, you keep talking about AR-15s. What do those have to do with prepping and accelerationism? Lots of people like AR-15s who aren't preppers. Plus, your inferred definition of "prepper" is narrow and pejorative. Sure, there are crazy, end-of-the-world preppers but they're really the fringe. I'm a prepper inasmuch as I have prepared my family as best I can for an earthquake here in Seattle. And I don't have an AR-15, and I'm not looking to accelerate collapse.

 

[JasperL]

This is not inherently true at all. I have government documents in my home at this moment, because I am authorized to, and they are supposed to stay with me. If the government ordered me to return those documents, and I refused, then them being in my home would become unlawful.

Maybe. I've not seen a detailed itinerary. He was, however, when he took them.

There might be a finer hair you can choose to split in this context, but it will be hard to find. The 'legal when removed' point might have been relevant some time in the first six months or so, well BEFORE the negotiated release of those boxes in February. Now, after that, then the subpoena, then more lies from the Trump camp, the distinction between legal when removed, and unlawful on Jan 20th at noon, versus unlawful when removed, is of no consequence.

Also, too, the government does not need to "order" you to return documents unlawful for you to possess after government service for your possession of them to be unlawful.

 

[LostInSeattle]

The problem here is that opposing sides are defending from positions of ignorance. We have no idea what was in the boxes. There isn't a soul on this thread that has any information beyond the fact that there was an FBI raid. People really do need to settle down.

Not true at all. We do have some idea of what was in the boxes, as much of an idea, in fact, as is possible.

According to reporting, the FBI retrieved 11 sets of classified documents, four of which were marked Top Secret, and also SCI.

Obviously, we're not going to find out what was on the documents themselves because, you know, that whole TOP SECRET thing.

 

[Metric Mouse]

I fail to see how you reconcile your assertion above with the first paragraph of his that I quoted.
"Not just does it [accelerating collapse] make it worse, it doesn't work, it hurts people. This isn't the way to go about anything. All you do is hurt people."
Please explain.
Also, you keep talking about AR-15s. What do those have to do with prepping and accelerationism? Lots of people like AR-15s who aren't preppers. Plus, your inferred definition of "prepper" is narrow and pejorative. Sure, there are crazy, end-of-the-world preppers but they're really the fringe. I'm a prepper inasmuch as I have prepared my family as best I can for an earthquake here in Seattle. And I don't have an AR-15, and I'm not looking to accelerate collapse.

Oh, he's aware that people will be hurt in the collapse. He's not dumb. He's a prepper, he's acutely aware that people get hurt and that's why he stockpiles supplies and clings to his weapons. It's perfectly aligned with his message that people will be hurt, things will go bad, this is why you need to get your supplies in order.

It's his entire point about why someone needs x amount of lifestraws or whatever.

I'm on about ar 15s because they're the weapon of fringe whackos (and others, of course) As you pointed out, one can keep flashlights and a first aid kit and a few bottles of water in case of a natural disaster; one doesn't need gas masks and ar 15s and the stuff to deliver a baby (all mentioned in other videos)

 

[LostInSeattle]

Oh, he's aware that people will be hurt in the collapse. He's not dumb. He's a prepper, he's acutely aware that people get hurt and that's why he stockpiles supplies and clings to his weapons. It's perfectly aligned with his message that people will be hurt, things will go bad, this is why you need to get your supplies in order.

It's his entire point about why someone needs x amount of lifestraws or whatever.

I'm on about ar 15s because they're the weapon of fringe whackos (and others, of course) As you pointed out, one can keep flashlights and a first aid kit and a few bottles of water in case of a natural disaster; one doesn't need gas masks and ar 15s and the stuff to deliver a baby (all mentioned in other videos)

All I say is you haven't watched the video. He really is saying the opposite of what you claim, and pretty clearly as well. But you do you.

 

[Metric Mouse]

All I say is you haven't watched the video. He really is saying the opposite of what you claim, and pretty clearly as well. But you do you.

No. You should listen to what he is saying, not what you think he says. It's pretty clear. He's very intelligent, and he's not hiding anything. If you think someone needs an ar 15, gas masks and baby delivery kits to ride out a snowstorm or an earthquake, then you might be his target demographic.

If you know what an ectopic pregnancy is, you're not his target audience.

 

[ataraxia]

That is not a disagreement at all. As president, Trump had the authority to declassify, move, and store documents as he saw fit.

Not at all. Not sure where you are getting this from. Must’ve been Fox News or something.

“ nothing short of laughable“, say the legal eagles:

Despite Trump's claims, experts say there's no 'magic wand' for a president to declassify documents

Despite Donald Trump's claim that all documents at Mar-a-Lago were declassified, "he can't just wave a magic wand," an expert says of the process for declassification.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Metric Mouse]

All I say is you haven't watched the video. He really is saying the opposite of what you claim, and pretty clearly as well. But you do you.

I'm the one who first mentioned this video and its contents on this thread. Dude, I watch almost every one of his videos. It's how I know his stance on ar 15s, that on the shelves behind him he has the stuff to deliver babies, he's proud of not citing his sources so that you can do your own research, that one can easily watch his videos on 2x speed due to his slow speech pace, that he had to explain what an ectopic pregnancy was because he expects his viewers to not know, rule 303, the upside down monkey patch.... seen it all....

Yeah, I've watched the video. Again, I was the person who brought it into the conversation.

 

[fmw]

Not true at all. We do have some idea of what was in the boxes, as much of an idea, in fact, as is possible.

According to reporting, the FBI retrieved 11 sets of classified documents, four of which were marked Top Secret, and also SCI.

Obviously, we're not going to find out what was on the documents themselves because, you know, that whole TOP SECRET thing.

And that information came from? Do markings on a box guarantee what is inside? Your partisanship is showing.

 

[cpwill]

You realize, of course, that you have expressed a process, dont you?

Apparently, that process wasn't followed, and as such, no matter the document, his taking it was illegal, even if done while he was in office. The President is not authorized to take what he wants when he wants to, no matter how many times people make that claim.

Process is not finding on the president, or on any original classification Authority who is handling information they have control over. Yes, the president can take any information if any classification to do what he wants when he wants where he wants. That is part of his powers as Commander in Chief. It's really bad that a commander-in-chief would abuse that power to do stupid and destructive things, which is why we shouldn't elect stupid and destructive people to that office.

 

[cpwill]

There might be a finer hair you can choose to split in this context, but it will be hard to find. The 'legal when removed' point might have been relevant some time in the first six months or so, well BEFORE the negotiated release of those boxes in February. Now, after that, then the subpoena, then more lies from the Trump camp, the distinction between legal when removed, and unlawful on Jan 20th at noon, versus unlawful when removed, is of no consequence.

Also, too, the government does not need to "order" you to return documents unlawful for you to possess after government service for your possession of them to be unlawful.

Precision is important, I think, when handling these accusations. When you create a simplified or dramatic narrative that doesn't exactly fit the facts, you create room for someone to wriggle off on all of their misdeeds by pointing to the discrepancy between your accusation and what they actually did. Trump has proven several times to be a master of this, although, his opponents help him out quite a lot by immediately hyping the most dramatic and terrible thing they can't imagine.

As I said, this appears to be a legal taking, followed by an unlawful retention. One of the reasons I'm growing increasingly confident in that assessment is that, anecdotally, it appears to satisfy neither tribe.

 

[JasperL]

Precision is important, I think, when handling these accusations. When you create a simplified or dramatic narrative that doesn't exactly fit the facts, you create room for someone to wriggle off on all of their misdeeds by pointing to the discrepancy between your accusation and what they actually did. Trump has proven several times to be a master of this, although, his opponents help him out quite a lot by immediately hyping the most dramatic and terrible thing they can't imagine.

As I said, this appears to be a legal taking, followed by an unlawful retention. One of the reasons I'm growing increasingly confident in that assessment is that, anecdotally, it appears to satisfy neither tribe.

First, that is a nonsensical way to evaluate the merits of your claim. It's another version of "both sides!!"

But my point is that you're making a distinction without a meaningful difference. Let's say it's corporate secrets. It is of no consequence that an employee who resigns at 5pm on a Friday boxed up a U-Haul full of corporate secrets, and happened to leave work at 3pm and get them into his basement by 4:59pm, when that employee still had legal "access" to those corporate documents. The boxing of them and hauling them to his basement will then be akin to a conspiracy to commit the crime of stealing corporate secrets, because that person when removing them from his corporate office intended at every step to hold those documents when it was unlawful to do so.

It's legitimizing Clinton's "depends on what the meaning of "is" is" defense. Did he "steal" the documents? No. Did he engage in a conspiracy to "steal" those same documents by boxing them up and carting them to Mar-a-lago, fully intending at every step to unlawfully retain/possess documents he could not lawfully possess as of noon Jan. 20th? Yes. Does that distinction matter? LOL, of course it doesn't!

And even if we accept your 'timeline' the unlawful act commenced around noon on January 20th, 2021 and has continued ever since. At this point 18 months later, "legal when removed" long ceased to be relevant to anything if the issue is evaluating this search and seizure.

 

[cpwill]

Not at all. Not sure where you are getting this from. Must’ve been Fox News or something.

“ nothing short of laughable“, say the legal eagles:

Despite Trump's claims, experts say there's no 'magic wand' for a president to declassify documents

Despite Donald Trump's claim that all documents at Mar-a-Lago were declassified, "he can't just wave a magic wand," an expert says of the process for declassification.

abcnews.go.com

I haven't watched cable news in... Gosh, 12 years, now. Try again on that one

As for your source, that's not a "legal eagle", it's an Obama administration lackey, who also says flatly false things like:

"[P]art and parcel of any act of declassification is communicating that act to all others who possess the same information, across all federal agencies,"​

In fact, information is regularly downgraded or declassified for particular uses by particular actors, while remaining at higher classification for the rest of the government.

 

[cpwill]

First, that is a nonsensical way to evaluate the merits of your claim. It's another version of "both sides!!"

Actually it's a "stop enabling a bad actor".

But my point is that you're making a distinction without a meaningful difference. Let's say it's corporate secrets. It is of no consequence that an employee who resigns at 5pm on a Friday boxed up a U-Haul full of corporate secrets, and happened to leave work at 3pm and get them into his basement by 4:59pm, when that employee still had legal "access" to those corporate documents. The boxing of them and hauling them to his basement will then be akin to a conspiracy to commit the crime of stealing corporate secrets, because that person when removing them from his corporate office intended at every step to hold those documents when it was unlawful to do so.

It's legitimizing Clinton's "depends on what the meaning of "is" is" defense. Did he "steal" the documents? No. Did he engage in a conspiracy to "steal" those same documents by boxing them up and carting them to Mar-a-lago, fully intending at every step to unlawfully retain/possess documents he could not lawfully possess as of noon Jan. 20th? Yes. Does that distinction matter? LOL, of course it doesn't!

And even if we accept your 'timeline' the unlawful act commenced around noon on January 20th, 2021 and has continued ever since. At this point 18 months later, "legal when removed" long ceased to be relevant to anything if the issue is evaluating this search and seizure.

If the timeline is different and he took them after he was President, then the taking would have been unlawful as well, agreed. I just haven't seen anyone establish that, and the by far most likely answer seems to be that he was POTUS at the time.