How many school kids (gunned down) per year would it take for you to support repealing the 2nd?

[MrNiceGuy]

Other...
A strict interpretation of the 2nd would be good. The founders didn't think they had to enumerate the right to own a gun, everybody had a gun. What they were reserving was the states right to have a Militia. This was the way it was seen for two hundred plus years. Activist Justices saw it as a living document that now meant any yahoo who could Afford one, could have one (or more).

This isn't exactly accurate. The militia was defined at the time as all able bodied males from whom the state could rustle up folks to handle situations. It was distinct from the standing military. So, it's not that the States were reserved the power to have some sort of military force. The militia is the people (other than children, invalids and elderly) who are "able" to be called up. And, that's why it's the "right of the people" to keep and bear arms, because that's the militia - if there was some sort of military incursion into a state, the state government would be able to sound the alarm and folks would report with their guns.

“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” — Founding Father, George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment

 

[Rexedgar]

This isn't exactly accurate. The militia was defined at the time as all able bodied males from whom the state could rustle up folks to handle situations. It was distinct from the standing military. So, it's not that the States were reserved the power to have some sort of military force. The militia is the people (other than children, invalids and elderly) who are "able" to be called up. And, that's why it's the "right of the people" to keep and bear arms, because that's the militia - if there was some sort of military incursion into a state, the state government would be able to sound the alarm and folks would report with their guns.

“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” — Founding Father, George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment

Chief Justice in the 20th century, Earl Warren:

 

[jpevans]

No number of criminal acts or victims will suffice as justification to repeal the 2A. How many stabbing deaths would it take for you to support banning knives?

I actually support requiring every able-bodied citizen 18 years old Plus to be a member of the Militia, National Guard or alternatively some other form of service, including active duty military, the red cross etc.

 

[American]

There are 31 guns per 100 people in Norway, and hardly anyone shoots people. I would advocate for some "well-regulation" of guns in the US, which would entail permitting which would generally be freely given, but there would be limits in terms of violent felons, and folks with mental conditions. Moreover, I like the idea in Norway where you have to take training courses and actually use the gun for hunting or sporting purposes (so that the gun users are educated and trained). The use of the gun in social settings, I think, weeds out a lot of the wackos. If you have to go to the gun range clubs and interact with people, then people will see the crazies and there can be reporting and action taken. Then there can be sweeps of illegal guns from gangs and such, which is where the vast majority of gun homicides come from.

But, also, let's stop it with the suggestion that "this only happens in the United States."

Gun Deaths by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

a

You don't understand the term in its use in the Bill of Rights.

https://armsandthelaw.com/archives/WellRegulatedinold%20literature.pdf

 

[grip]

If there are over 1000 school kids being killed in mass shootings, then we've got a bigger problem than just the weapon used.

 

[Superfly]

Explain why...

Not going to vote because I don't agree with any of the options.

I don't believe the 2nd needs to be repealed. I think it needs to be amended to have stricter laws regarding ownership and purchase, but it shouldn't be repealed. Not everyone should be punished just because you have crazies out there that should have been monitored, and kept from owning a gun in the first place.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Chief Justice in the 20th century, Earl Warren:

View attachment 67393172

I never said the right was unfettered. But a militia is not a "state army."

In DC v Heller, 5-4 was the majority opinion, but 3 of the dissenters also recognized the 2d amendment as an individual right. Only 1 did not. Of those four dissenters, 3 of them said that the prefatory clause limited the "scope" of the individual right, and then one said that even though the 2d codifies and individual right, the DC gun law was reasonable. But, there really was no serious argument about the fact that the 2d amendment is an individual right, not the right of the State to have an army.

 

[Irredentist]

There are 31 guns per 100 people in Norway, and hardly anyone shoots people. I would advocate for some "well-regulation" of guns in the US, which would entail permitting which would generally be freely given, but there would be limits in terms of violent felons, and folks with mental conditions. Moreover, I like the idea in Norway where you have to take training courses and actually use the gun for hunting or sporting purposes (so that the gun users are educated and trained). The use of the gun in social settings, I think, weeds out a lot of the wackos. If you have to go to the gun range clubs and interact with people, then people will see the crazies and there can be reporting and action taken. Then there can be sweeps of illegal guns from gangs and such, which is where the vast majority of gun homicides come from.

But, also, let's stop it with the suggestion that "this only happens in the United States."

Gun Deaths by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

a

How exactly do you plan on restricting mentally ill persons from buying guns, without infringing on doctor patient confidentiality?

 

[ttwtt78640]

I actually support requiring every able-bodied citizen 18 years old Plus to be a member of the Militia, National Guard or alternatively some other form of service, including active duty military, the red cross etc.

OK, I could use some extra income.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

If there are over 1000 school kids being killed in mass shootings, then we've got a bigger problem than just the weapon used.

The news is saying this crackpot just walked into the school. How the heck does that happen? Like 10 years ago I went back to visit my old high school, and the place was like prison. You have to go through one set of doors into a glass-lined waiting area, and "check in." Nobody could get in without ID and an escort around the school. When I was there "back in the day" the doors were all open, anyone could walk onto the property from any direction and get in and out.

I find the news very disturbing about how the cops showed up and then just sat there for an hour listening to the gunshots and waiting for "backup" and "negotiators." Madness.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

How exactly do you plan on restricting mentally ill persons from buying guns, without infringing on doctor patient confidentiality?

The same way it's done when you join many licensed professions and you have to agree to submit to a background check and all sorts of inquiries.

A well-regulated militia would entail, I think, a set of regulations on the keeping and bearing of arms. I mean, the 2d says nothing about violent felons not being allowed to have guns, yet it's routinely said by gun proponents that violent felons could be deprived of that right.

 

[Rexedgar]

I never said the right was unfettered. But a militia is not a "state army."

In DC v Heller, 5-4 was the majority opinion, but 3 of the dissenters also recognized the 2d amendment as an individual right. Only 1 did not. Of those four dissenters, 3 of them said that the prefatory clause limited the "scope" of the individual right, and then one said that even though the 2d codifies and individual right, the DC gun law was reasonable. But, there really was no serious argument about the fact that the 2d amendment is an individual right, not the right of the State to have an army.

Time to revisit that decision, I think.

<snip>

I find the news very disturbing about how the cops showed up and then just sat there for an hour listening to the gunshots and waiting for "backup" and "negotiators." Madness.

A perfect example of the problem with this style of weapon. The police seem to unwilling to advance on one suspect armed with the weapon that is at the center of the discussion. The pertinent quote is about the 2:08 mark.

 

[grip]

The news is saying this crackpot just walked into the school. How the heck does that happen? Like 10 years ago I went back to visit my old high school, and the place was like prison. You have to go through one set of doors into a glass-lined waiting area, and "check in." Nobody could get in without ID and an escort around the school. When I was there "back in the day" the doors were all open, anyone could walk onto the property from any direction and get in and out.

I find the news very disturbing about how the cops showed up and then just sat there for an hour listening to the gunshots and waiting for "backup" and "negotiators." Madness.

The lack of forceful entry is a usual procedure and is meant to save lives. There's no evidence that an abrupt breach wouldn't have killed more. The chief LEO on the scene uses their discretion and experience when making these calls.

I believe in this case, they should've engaged the shooter much sooner.

 

[Irredentist]

The same way it's done when you join many licensed professions and you have to agree to submit to a background check and all sorts of inquiries.

A well-regulated militia would entail, I think, a set of regulations on the keeping and bearing of arms. I mean, the 2d says nothing about violent felons not being allowed to have guns, yet it's routinely said by gun proponents that violent felons could be deprived of that right.

But mental illness is not at all the same as being a violent felon. Becoming a felon is a choice; being mentally ill is not. Criminal records are publicly available; medical records are sealed.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The news is saying this crackpot just walked into the school. How the heck does that happen? Like 10 years ago I went back to visit my old high school, and the place was like prison. You have to go through one set of doors into a glass-lined waiting area, and "check in." Nobody could get in without ID and an escort around the school. When I was there "back in the day" the doors were all open, anyone could walk onto the property from any direction and get in and out.

I find the news very disturbing about how the cops showed up and then just sat there for an hour listening to the gunshots and waiting for "backup" and "negotiators." Madness.

Being government (job for life) employees, that is likely to be deemed acceptable ‘job performance’, perhaps even earning them a performance bonus and hailing them as being first responder heroes. Governor Abbot came close to doing that recently.

After all, the availability of that scary black rifle was the real problem. That 18 year old HS dropout was just too much for a group of LEOs from multiple agencies to handle in under an hour.

 

[jpevans]

OK, …the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. There was never any question as to whether states could have militias. You seem to be trying to assert that “the people” in the 2A are somehow different from “the people” in the 4A. Heller v. DC cleared that up quite well.

Most interpret the militia clause to further define the meaning of “arms” in the 2A than the meaning of “the people” in the 2A. BTW, the 2A has never been interpreted as a right to shoot (or even shoot at) anyone else.

No, there was never any question that people could own guns, everybody did & everybody need it, for hunting & defense. It was like making an amendment that guaranteed the right to own pants. It was the Forming up & training of a Militia that was Guaranteed by the Amendment. A repeating weapon like a Gatling never mind a Glock or AR15 would have been the stuff of science fiction & they certainly didn't envision anybody just slaughtering anybody for blood sport, especially children.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The lack of forceful entry is a usual procedure and is meant to save lives. There's no evidence that an abrupt breach wouldn't have killed more. The chief LEO on the scene uses their discretion and experience when making these calls.

I believe in this case, they should've engaged the shooter much sooner.

That (bolded above) may eventually (after months of careful study) be found to have been the case. If so, then ‘standard procedures’ will be updated and a massive (in cost) training program will be used to get them up to speed on the new (10 to 20 word?) procedural change.

 

[jpevans]

Do you ever notice people that are against guns either can't afford one, or don't want to get shot stealing from people's cars and homes?

No!!!

 

[jaeger19]

They can be sued directly for their products.

Not for their improper use.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Time to revisit that decision, I think.



A perfect example of the problem with this style of weapon. The police seem to unwilling to advance on one suspect armed with the weapon that is at the center of the discussion. The pertinent quote is about the 2:08 mark.

Wow

 

[jaeger19]

One day, maybe, your faction generally will learn to read what you're opposing.

One day..maybe your faction will learn to stop the hysteria..stop with the institutional racism..stop with the liberal dog whistles..
And honestly understand the real issue isn't firearms but the conditions that create violence.
.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The same way it's done when you join many licensed professions and you have to agree to submit to a background check and all sorts of inquiries.

Surely that was the clear intent of the 2A and nobody (except you?) realized that until recently.

A well-regulated militia would entail, I think, a set of regulations on the keeping and bearing of arms. I mean, the 2d says nothing about violent felons not being allowed to have guns, yet it's routinely said by gun proponents that violent felons could be deprived of that right.

The Constitution clearly says that rights may be removed (only) by due process of law - which is what accounts for that (bolded above).

 

[reinaert]

No, there was never any question that people could own guns, everybody did & everybody need it, for hunting & defense. It was like making an amendment that guaranteed the right to own pants. It was the Forming up & training of a Militia that was Guaranteed by the Amendment. A repeating weapon like a Gatling never mind a Glock or AR15 would have been the stuff of science fiction & they certainly didn't envision anybody just slaughtering anybody for blood sport, especially children.

Literally, there weren't even rounds when they wrote it.

 

[CaughtInThe]

No!!!

I know right. I guess that means that my retired army friend, who is hard-ass to the core, who won't have guns in his house because of his kids is going around stealing stuff.

 

[reinaert]

One day..maybe your faction will learn to stop the hysteria..stop with the institutional racism..stop with the liberal dog whistles..
And honestly understand the real issue isn't firearms but the conditions that create violence.
.

You folks seem to be inattentive readers of English. I'd suggest school, but I'm worried you might be groomed by the teacher you simultaneously think is an enemy of America and a necessary armed defender of children.