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How Legitimate Peace And Unity Begins

noonereal said:
Did you not understand my post at all?

Your "suspicion," as you make clear in the bolded, comes from within you. It is not related to anything you saw or have knowledge of in this election.

There is no objective, rational or reasoned support for being suspicious.
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I haven't read their post, and it might not be relevant, but the CIA does dirty deeds in many foreign countries. That's not a good thing.
 
Antiwar said:
the CIA does dirty deeds in many foreign countries. That's not a good thing.
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why do you say it is not a good thing?

Why would we do it if it were not a good thing, for us?
 
noonereal said:
why do you say it is not a good thing?

Why would we do it if it were not a good thing, for us?
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Because meddling with foreign elections and regime change are wrong.
 
Antiwar said:
the CIA does dirty deeds in many foreign countries. That's not a good thing.
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That is both true . . . and untrue. American hegemony was attained in the hemisphere (or maintained) in order to create the present system that we live in. A similar process occurred in the Postwar era within the US itself. That is, that Power outlined a plan for general development.
noonereal said:
Why would we do it if it were not a good thing, for us?
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But here is the telling question: If you support the use of clandestine and para-democratic power in Venezuela, Brazil, Indonesia (etc.) and if you have no way to criticize it, or to act to control it or oppose it, then you must accept it when the same 'dirty' power manipulates events in your own country in ways that do not benefit you and potentially undermine your own republic.

That is what Malcolm X meant when he said "The chickens have come home to roost..."
 
Antiwar said:
I'll bite. What do you suppose should be done to examine the presidential election, how long might it take, and who is President in the meanwhile?

Don't fool around; I'm familiar with your tactics.

Why is someone in England not-so-subtly suggesting the two choices are examine the election or war?
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I would suggest a court style investigation with cross examination. The process would be televised or live on the internet etc. The whole world could then judge the evidence and the character of the process.

Biden has been confirmed. He would be the president unless the process showed that the election had been fraudulent.

That I would suggest should cause a new election.

I am concearned because the USA is th eleader of the world's democracies. If it falls then the rest of us are in deep trouble.
 
Alizia Tyler said:
Yet I said that I suspect or that I have suspicions, not that I believe. I can say why. I grew up in Venezuela where the CIA was extraordinarily active for many years because of the oil-wealth. And I have made an effort to research and study what was done and what tactics were used. No tactics are excluded when Power defends its interests. Every sort of underhanded, unethical, illegal action that you can imagine is used when Power sets its sights on eliminating those who oppose its plans, and those who have other designs.

What I suggest to you and for anyone reading here is to *step back* from the hysterical addiction to partisan politics in which the entire nation is embroiled. Examine things and think things through from a more removed perspective. Right now, for reasons that I do not and perhaps cannot fully understand, huge power-games are being played out in the US. But there is also a global dimension here.

I do not profess to understand the entire dynamic of these power-games and power-plays, but one of the reasons Trump is strongly opposed (aside from those rather grotesque deformities of his brash and uncouth personality) is because he sponsors a form of nationalism (you could call it a sort of chauvinism) that I have gathered does not fit into a global plan.

Those who manage that plan are networks of governments and networks of corporations. Not networks of people, and not networks of citizens. I say that we as citizens must clearly, and even adamantly, distinguish our interests as distinct from that of vast power-networks.

For 4-5 years -- literally from before Trump was elected -- he was opposed. Upon his election it was then decided he would be impeached. For reasons I do not fully understand (though I have some inkling) Trump really upset people within the *power structure*. He took actions that went against the current.

So it appears to me that every means possible over the course of his presidency was attempted so to undermine him. That is to say, to fail to cooperate at all and at any level. I assume that the power factions that I refer to made a sort of decision: use any and all means at their disposal to try to trip President Trump up. And I also assume that American intelligence agencies have had a role in directing or organizing in different ways a larger plan of opposition. Why do I suspect this? Because I know, somewhat first hand, what these agencies do, and what Power does and is capable of doing. Vast interests are at stake in America. And when interests are vast Power shows its true colors.

Because your view is (I think) limited to your personalized hatred of the man Donald Trump I think you fail to discern a larger context. Trump opposed a 'globally-agreed plan' and he opposed 'machinations' that had been set in motion. And he aroused the ire of Power.

So with that backdrop it is a) conceivable that Power would do what it needed to do to stop Donald Trump from being reelected. I say conceivable or that *it follows logically* because of 4 years of intense efforts to undermine and to vilify him. And b) that I definitely do not trust Power to *play within the lines* and to *play fair*. A mature understanding of Power understands that power, by its nature, does not accept conventional restraint. I am cynical therefore in regard to Power. I have two perhaps unlikely points-of-reference in this: Noam Chomsky and Niccolò Machiavelli.

The present *win* of the Democratic Party is also a *win* for larger world-level factions and the progress of their plans. So, I believe that I am seeing realistically beyond the mere appearances of our present.

The effort now is showing itself as turning against any and all persons or groups who oppose Power. They must be silenced, banned, restricted in their reach (communication) and forced out of the political sphere. That is what we are seeing now take shape.

But I gather that you do not see this and that it does not concern you. You are certainly not alone! But I would suggest that you are *trapped* within hysterical and partisan perspectives that inhibit you from seeing more clearly, or perhaps I could say more profoundly.

Nevertheless and notwithstanding what I propose here, there are as well profound cultural issues at play here. All the stuff that is of the *Culture Wars*.

What I suggest in relation to all of this is a more nuanced and a more detailed conversation -- with good-faith at the center of it.
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Disappointingly the good-faith part has been lost in teh swirl of paid for disinformation.
 
noonereal said:
Did you not understand my post at all?

Your "suspicion," as you make clear in the bolded, comes from within you. It is not related to anything you saw or have knowledge of in this election.

There is no objective, rational or reasoned support for being suspicious.
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What like various places counting more votes than people eligable to vote there?
 
Aunt Antifa said:
Republicans must:

  • To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
  • Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
  • Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
  • LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
  • Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.
Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.
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I notice you don't think Democrats need to do anything. Thinking they are blameless is a big part of the problem.
 
trouble13 said:
I notice you don't think Democrats need to do anything. Thinking they are blameless is a big part of the problem.
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They are 100% blameless in the Republicans’ voter fraud hoax, and 100% blameless in the insurrection that Republicans fomented.

You still have Republicans unwilling to admit to any of this today and y’all think this is a negotiation. You lost. Full stop. Time for you to figure out why and reach out.
 
Aunt Antifa said:
Republicans must:

  • To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
  • Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
  • Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
  • LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
  • Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.
Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.
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Guess there will no peace or unity
 
Aunt Antifa said:
They are 100% blameless in the Republicans’ voter fraud hoax, and 100% blameless in the insurrection that Republicans fomented.

You still have Republicans unwilling to admit to any of this today and y’all think this is a negotiation. You lost. Full stop. Time for you to figure out why and reach out.
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what your saying is that the only way for there to be peace and unity is through a full surrender by republicans. That being the case I think I will pass on that generous offer of peace and stick with promoting division.
 
Binary_Digit said:
Politicians on both sides of the isle got a serious wakeup call on Jan. 6th. That demonizing opponents with dishonest rhetoric can lead to a lot more than just cheap political points. It can put their own personal safety, as well as that of the entire nation, into serious jeopardy. They all need to take this lesson to heart and seriously dial back the whole "party over country" culture they've created.
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Great. So in the spirit of peace and unity you are willing to insist that democrats declare Trumps 2016 legitimate, that the charge that he colluded with Russia was a fraud and that the lefts poisonous rhetoric of labeling people on the right as racists, traitors and fascists was divisive and wrong, correct?
 
trouble13 said:
what your saying is that the only way for there to be peace and unity is through a full surrender by republicans. That being the case I think I will pass on that generous offer of peace and stick with promoting division.
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Just bow before the victor and confess your sins and all will be forgiven. You know, exactly how the democrats handled their total defeat in 2016.
 
Fletch said:
Just bow before the victor and confess your sins and all will be forgiven. You know, exactly how the democrats handled their total defeat in 2016.
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Hillary conceded the next day.
 
Fletch said:
Great. So in the spirit of peace and unity you are willing to insist that democrats declare Trumps 2016 legitimate, that the charge that he colluded with Russia was a fraud and that the lefts poisonous rhetoric of labeling people on the right as racists, traitors and fascists was divisive and wrong, correct?
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Yes. Trump is the only one who claimed election fraud in 2016...until he won. Mueller showed that Russia tried to interfere but Trump did not collude or conspire with them. And labeling the other side as being represented by the extremists among them is toxic tribalism and needs to end.
 
Aunt Antifa said:
Republicans must:

  • To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
  • Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
  • Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
  • LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
  • Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.
Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.
Click to expand...
So, in essence, there can't and won't be unity until everyone bows down to left wing political leaders.

The idea that "We're the majority. Obey us!" is somehow or other a means of achieving unity is an interesting one. What happens if someone chooses not to supplicate themselves before the "throne of all that's good and proper"?
 
Aunt Antifa said:
Republicans must:

  • To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
  • Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
  • Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
  • LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
  • Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.
Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.
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No.
 
Lutherf said:
So, in essence, there can't and won't be unity until everyone bows down to left wing political leaders.

The idea that "We're the majority. Obey us!" is somehow or other a means of achieving unity is an interesting one. What happens if someone chooses not to supplicate themselves before the "throne of all that's good and proper"?
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I for one care not, what happens, if my new "overlords
Aunt Antifa said:
That’s okay. We won the election.
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So you keep claiming.
 
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