How Legitimate Peace And Unity Begins

[NatMorton]

I didn’t attempt it,

We agree, the sentiment you expressed in the OP was not genuine.

 

[Tim the plumber]

You’re not going to threaten us to overturn the election. Y’all already tried that.

So you are concearned that a proper investigation would indeed show massive fraud.... OK, just try to listen to yourself...

 

[Tim the plumber]

We DON'T.
It already started.
Trump started it and we are going to finish it.

Would you like to avoid a full war?

I think war would be bad.

I think it is worth a high cost to avoid war but not any cost.

I think the freedoms and wealth we enjoy can easily be lost. I think there is a good chance that hell will arrive to our societies soon due to a lack of ability for us to slowly look at the details together.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Feelings mean nothing to me. If you believe the election was rigged by all means tell us what convinced you? Did you only accept what Team Trump has said? How about Georgia or Arizona rebuttal to the fraud claims? Is Dominion not telling the truth?

Funny how President Trump said long before the election that the only way he will loose is if it is rigged. Seems all I have read is the "evidence" will be shown, but it never is. Team Trump, S. Powell, et.al. have yet to provide the evidence. imo, they are hoping if they say "fraud and rigged" long enough people will begin to believe it.

Start here, have a watch of a few videos.

 

[Antiwar]

Would you like to avoid a full war?

I think war would be bad.

I think it is worth a high cost to avoid war but not any cost.

I think the freedoms and wealth we enjoy can easily be lost. I think there is a good chance that hell will arrive to our societies soon due to a lack of ability for us to slowly look at the details together.

You're about as subtle as Trump is, lately.

 

[mike2810]

Start here, have a watch of a few videos.

sigh.
Nope. Project Veritas is about as unbiased as the Lincoln Project.
"they thought" is the problem. Either things were or were not being done correctly

Do you believe all of the talking points President Trump has said about the election? Yes or No.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

We agree, the sentiment you expressed in the OP was not genuine.

What an impotent lil argument ya got goin there.

 

[Tim the plumber]

You're about as subtle as Trump is, lately.

You call yourself anti-war.

What are you willing to sacrifice in order to avoid war?

Is the holyness of Biden's victory worth challenging by allowing the victory to be propeerly examined and challenged?

 

[Tim the plumber]

sigh.
Nope. Project Veritas is about as unbiased as the Lincoln Project.
"they thought" is the problem. Either things were or were not being done correctly

Do you believe all of the talking points President Trump has said about the election? Yes or No.

I don't know all the talking points of Trump.

I propably don't believe them. He often talks drivel or lies.

You must sacrifce your safety bubble of no challenging ideas to avoid war. Which do you choose having to look at videos you don't want to or being shot?

 

[Antiwar]

...

I'll bite. What do you suppose should be done to examine the presidential election, how long might it take, and who is President in the meanwhile?

Don't fool around; I'm familiar with your tactics.

Why is someone in England not-so-subtly suggesting the two choices are examine the election or war?

 

[mike2810]

I don't know all the talking points of Trump.

I propably don't believe them. He often talks drivel or lies.

You must sacrifce your safety bubble of no challenging ideas to avoid war. Which do you choose having to look at videos you don't want to or being shot?

I have looked at the video.
Why do you think I made the statement about it versus the Lincoln Project

Here are two sources regarding Gabriel Sterling (Georgia) rebuttal to Trump's claims about the Georgia election. Is Sterling not telling the truth?

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/04/9533...ont-let-misinformation-suppress-your-own-vote

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Didn’t read anything after that.

This interests me. It is as if you say "I will only consider what I have already decided." "I'll hear nothing else." "I have blocked myself from any other consideration."

Can you really not see that it's up to the kid crying wolf to produce the wolf?

It is possible that all that has been assumed or alleged about election fraud will be finally concluded to be false. But unlike you (evidently!) I have strong suspicions. If I am proved wrong I will then have to face the consequences for having believed (*intuitively*) something that was simply not true. That is all that I have to say on the matter.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

This interests me. It is as if you say "I will only consider what I have already decided." "I'll hear nothing else." "I have blocked myself from any other consideration."

It is possible that all that has been assumed or alleged about election fraud will be finally concluded to be false. But unlike you (evidently!) I have strong suspicions. If I am proved wrong I will then have to face the consequences for having believed (*intuitively*) something that was simply not true. That is all that I have to say on the matter.

Ya’ll keep thinking people owe you their time. We do not.

 

[babylonrumble]

Liberals had their own loud & rabid base long before "The Donald" came on to the presidential scene.

You can't get away with pretending that Democrats have not used vitriol to stir their own base, and still try to make an argument for them being the more civil party..

List any and all elected folks who incited mobs to attack the US govt.

 

[babylonrumble]

This interests me. It is as if you say "I will only consider what I have already decided." "I'll hear nothing else." "I have blocked myself from any other consideration."

It is possible that all that has been assumed or alleged about election fraud will be finally concluded to be false. But unlike you (evidently!) I have strong suspicions. If I am proved wrong I will then have to face the consequences for having believed (*intuitively*) something that was simply not true. That is all that I have to say on the matter.

"It is possible that all that has been assumed or alleged about election fraud will be finally concluded to be false. "

It already has been. Check your "sources".

 

[Antiwar]

...

What flag is that? Where do you live?

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Ya’ll keep thinking people owe you their time. We do not.

The purpose of a forum like this -- in an ideal sense -- is to hash out different perspectives in a civil manner. It is not a question of what I may think people owe me but what I owe to others who write out their views and ideas here. If I took your attitude I would only read what I had already been convinced of!

I would also suggest that if you show yourself completely closed to being influenced on any level, then it is similarly likely that you will not succeed in influencing anyone else. Is it possible that is your objective?

You opening post begins declaring that "Republicans must".

I am not a Republican so I guess I fall outside of the scope of your demand! But what I am trying to communicate to you is that in no sense do I regard your *list of demands* as something you have any right or justification to demand. You have no ethical justification really. Your own ethical platform is pretty shaky. (My *you* here is a general one).

I regard political corruption as a real thing. And though it is perhaps easier for me, at least today, to discern Democratic Party and general Left-Progressive actions as being severely corrupt (blaming & shaming, banning, demanding that free speech be curtailed and a general hysterical condemnation of all their *political enemies*, and a total incapacity to take responsibility for their own destructive and insurrectional political activity over many years now), still I am not at all closed to examining general political corruption, including among Republicans.

Your *list* is obviously a sort of joke, isn't it? Self-preening or something to that effect? No one in the political world simply bends to their opponent's will!

But what I say is that there is far more ethical and moral justification to resist and to oppose your political impositions and demands (I mean that of the Democratic Party not you-singular necessarily) then there is to heed any moral grandstanding. Did you get this far not-reading?

 

[Alizia Tyler]

What flag is that? Where do you live?

I live presently outside of the US in Colombia. The flag changes with what the VPN chooses!

 

[JerryW]

Honestly, I can't even believe this OP but that's certainly not the only thing of the last few days I find unbelievable. We're headed into a seriously weird place, America.
Dems, you are really, really, really misreading conservatives. What you obviously think we're thinking and what we're actually thinking couldn't be further apart.

What you think we the anti-Trumpers are thinking is very far from reality

. (As for the affidavits - do you recall that the affidavits re Kavenaugh's unfitness were largely ignored? And Trump's lawyers failed at making the case about the need to examine them all around the country? They weren't examined because Team Trump couldn't prove any valid reason. Nor could any groups local to these various states. The Senate could have done a "10 day examination thing" in December.)

 

[noonereal]

It is possible that all that has been assumed or alleged about election fraud will be finally concluded to be false. But unlike you (evidently!) I have strong suspicions. If I am proved wrong I will then have to face the consequences for having believed (*intuitively*) something that was simply not true. That is all that I have to say on the matter.

dude, it has already been concluded to be false

You need to ask yourself why you allowed yourself to believe something that was never more than false accusations from a pathological liar.

I know if I believed a pathological liar, especially after everything he said remained unsubstantiated, I'd be worried about myself.

That is all I have to say on the matter.

 

[Fishking]

Republicans must:

Elections have consequences.

You won't get peace and unity trying to brow-beat the entire political opposition group into subjugation. That makes it worse.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Dude, it has already been concluded to be false

You need to ask yourself why you allowed yourself to believe something that was never more than false accusations from a pathological liar.

Yet I said that I suspect or that I have suspicions, not that I believe. I can say why. I grew up in Venezuela where the CIA was extraordinarily active for many years because of the oil-wealth. And I have made an effort to research and study what was done and what tactics were used. No tactics are excluded when Power defends its interests. Every sort of underhanded, unethical, illegal action that you can imagine is used when Power sets its sights on eliminating those who oppose its plans, and those who have other designs.

What I suggest to you and for anyone reading here is to *step back* from the hysterical addiction to partisan politics in which the entire nation is embroiled. Examine things and think things through from a more removed perspective. Right now, for reasons that I do not and perhaps cannot fully understand, huge power-games are being played out in the US. But there is also a global dimension here.

I do not profess to understand the entire dynamic of these power-games and power-plays, but one of the reasons Trump is strongly opposed (aside from those rather grotesque deformities of his brash and uncouth personality) is because he sponsors a form of nationalism (you could call it a sort of chauvinism) that I have gathered does not fit into a global plan.

Those who manage that plan are networks of governments and networks of corporations. Not networks of people, and not networks of citizens. I say that we as citizens must clearly, and even adamantly, distinguish our interests as distinct from that of vast power-networks.

For 4-5 years -- literally from before Trump was elected -- he was opposed. Upon his election it was then decided he would be impeached. For reasons I do not fully understand (though I have some inkling) Trump really upset people within the *power structure*. He took actions that went against the current.

So it appears to me that every means possible over the course of his presidency was attempted so to undermine him. That is to say, to fail to cooperate at all and at any level. I assume that the power factions that I refer to made a sort of decision: use any and all means at their disposal to try to trip President Trump up. And I also assume that American intelligence agencies have had a role in directing or organizing in different ways a larger plan of opposition. Why do I suspect this? Because I know, somewhat first hand, what these agencies do, and what Power does and is capable of doing. Vast interests are at stake in America. And when interests are vast Power shows its true colors.

Because your view is (I think) limited to your personalized hatred of the man Donald Trump I think you fail to discern a larger context. Trump opposed a 'globally-agreed plan' and he opposed 'machinations' that had been set in motion. And he aroused the ire of Power.

So with that backdrop it is a) conceivable that Power would do what it needed to do to stop Donald Trump from being reelected. I say conceivable or that *it follows logically* because of 4 years of intense efforts to undermine and to vilify him. And b) that I definitely do not trust Power to *play within the lines* and to *play fair*. A mature understanding of Power understands that power, by its nature, does not accept conventional restraint. I am cynical therefore in regard to Power. I have two perhaps unlikely points-of-reference in this: Noam Chomsky and Niccolò Machiavelli.

The present *win* of the Democratic Party is also a *win* for larger world-level factions and the progress of their plans. So, I believe that I am seeing realistically beyond the mere appearances of our present.

The effort now is showing itself as turning against any and all persons or groups who oppose Power. They must be silenced, banned, restricted in their reach (communication) and forced out of the political sphere. That is what we are seeing now take shape.

But I gather that you do not see this and that it does not concern you. You are certainly not alone! But I would suggest that you are *trapped* within hysterical and partisan perspectives that inhibit you from seeing more clearly, or perhaps I could say more profoundly.

Nevertheless and notwithstanding what I propose here, there are as well profound cultural issues at play here. All the stuff that is of the *Culture Wars*.

What I suggest in relation to all of this is a more nuanced and a more detailed conversation -- with good-faith at the center of it.

 

[noonereal]

Yet I said that I suspect or that I have suspicions, not that I believe. I can say why. I grew up in Venezuela where the CIA was extraordinarily active for many years because of the oil-wealth.

Did you not understand my post at all?

Your "suspicion," as you make clear in the bolded, comes from within you. It is not related to anything you saw or have knowledge of in this election.

There is no objective, rational or reasoned support for being suspicious.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Did you not understand my post at all?

Your "suspicion," as you make clear in the bolded, comes from within you. It is not related to anything you saw or have knowledge of in this election.

There is no objective, rational or reasoned support for being suspicious.

Oh no, that is not quite right. I simply wrote out a sort of preamble, as it were, to describe my general orientation. I am somewhat aware of the general outline of how fraud occurred, but I am in no position to make an analysis of it myself. So what I said is that later, as the weeks progress, what has been an utterly surprising year may likely hold a few more surprises, and more may come out about fraud, if indeed it occurred in the required scale.

My suspicions have a root in my understanding and my (former) nation's experience at the hands of American intelligence agencies (but you must understand that I am not completely opposed to their ends nor to American hegemony in the hemisphere).

And my suspicions have been further fueled in respect to this election by many of the narratives that you are also aware of, and 4 years of intense and corrupt efforts to undermine Donald Trump's presidency.

So yes, I think that I did understand your post and its limited purview.

I might turn the question around and ask you if you have really comprehended my points?

 

[Aunt Antifa]

You won't get peace and unity trying to brow-beat the entire political opposition group into subjugation. That makes it worse.

Worse than sedition? Don’t think so. No one is asking for subjugation. Just honesty. If that’s impossible, hey, who needs unity. We won.