How Legitimate Peace And Unity Begins

[Alizia Tyler]

You think things can't get worse? Imagine if Trump had won.

I am curious to know your opinion: What would have happened had Trump won?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

So, in essence, there can't and won't be unity until everyone bows down to left wing political leaders.

I can tell you guys are worried about losing. The problem, the thing you guys haven't realized yet, is that you've already lost. The Democrats have the Presidency, and the Senate, and the House.

It's over. The elections are over. And you lost. You lost big time. And part of the reason why you lost is you guys kept pushing idiotic conspiracy theories about voter fraud and this discouraged your fellow Republicans from voting.

The idea that "We're the majority. Obey us!" is somehow or other a means of achieving unity is an interesting one.

The idea being presented is this: We're the majority, and if you have a problem with that you're going to work harder to win some elections, and not attempt to support people trying to initiate a violent coup.

What happens if someone chooses not to supplicate themselves before the "throne of all that's good and proper"?

All you guys really have to do is not engage in acts of violence and domestic terrorism, and also not support those that do, either rhetorically or financially.

What would be super helpful is if you guys came to terms with the fact that support for Trump has morphed into a fascistic movement and then also condemn the violence and the rhetoric on Jan 6th and Trump's encouragement of that violence. If you could do that in a consistent and forceful way that would really help. That would help avoid acts of domestic terrorism in the future. It's really striking the things I am reading and hearing from Trump supporters. It's a lot like what happened after 9/11 when normal Muslims kept making excuse after excuse for the radical Muslims. That's what you guys are doing now and it's pretty disgusting.

 

[Lutherf]

It is less of a premise and more of a conclusion based in a cause and effect argument.

And it is really quite simple. The same sorts of violations of principles (our own Constitutional principles based on notions of freedom, self-determination, legal protection principles respected) that are used against a foreign power will likely occur on the domestic front. The temptation is great. These are issues and questions that deal directly on the topic of 'liberty'. Liberty is always weak and requiring protections. Power is always aggressive and requiring controls and restraints.


Well then you could argue that it is entirely proper and good for all important principles on which our country was founded -- our own Constitutional principles and the base on which the country has been built -- to be abandoned in the pursuit of economic and security interests. First internationally but then domestically. You are saying effectively that the latter trumps the former. There are zillions of problems with that argument.

The problem with that argument is that you would not be able to argue against the establishment of a sort of political and governmental régime similar to the Chinese Communist Party: a collusion between the government and business for the furthering of strictly economic and security gains. Your *philosophy* such as it is can only lead to destructive results. This is of course the general problem that we face in our one country. How we respond to it is important.

However, I cannot say that I am absolutely opposed to the clandestine wars against Marxist and Communist groups in Latin America in the Postwar and their weakening, marginalization and defeat. I exist in a kind of conundrum.

And this is of course why I am highly concerned about the triumph of the Democratic/Progressive Party. Their first order of business is obviously shutting down the exchange of information that opposes their consolidation of power. They are now demonstrating how the hunt for and elimination of their enemies will be conducted. And I am absolutely opposed to such an imposition within the US.

It should be obvious therefore that I acknowledge that we are in a sort of *idea-war* and a developing civil conflict. It is only just beginning really.

WOW!

It's so rare to see a cogent, concise, rational argument on this site these days. Thank you!

 

[Antiwar]

I would suggest a court style investigation with cross examination. The process would be televised or live on the internet etc. The whole world could then judge the evidence and the character of the process.

Biden has been confirmed. He would be the president unless the process showed that the election had been fraudulent.

That I would suggest should cause a new election.

I am concearned because the USA is th eleader of the world's democracies. If it falls then the rest of us are in deep trouble.

The US is a horrible model of democracy for several reasons.

 

[Antiwar]

So from a moral perspective you disagree.
Very altruistic.

I am more from the pragmatic camp.
Meddling in foreign elections is done to advance the agenda of the USA, our country. I must put our country first.

Do you understand that the things done by various factions of the US government and multinational corporations are inhumane and against the global interest of not destroying the environment? That when we exploit people and planet we actually harm ourselves? Well-being for all inhabitants and the planet is the goal.

 

[phoenix2020]

How about we have a decent proper investigation of the claims of fraud first and if the investigation comes up with the result that fraud did change the election result there is another election?

If there is a proper, open, investigation with all claims of fraund fully looked at you will find that 99% of the Trump supporters will accept the result.

I’d just like to say that this is simply false. Unless the result is a Trump victory, Donald Trump will not accept it. And if he will not accept it, the vast majority of Trump supporters will not accept. This is what happens when you are in a cult. Your opinion matters little; the one that does is the cult leader’s.

 

[noonereal]

Do you understand that the things done by various factions of the US government and multinational corporations are inhumane and against the global interest of not destroying the environment? That when we exploit people and planet we actually harm ourselves? Well-being for all inhabitants and the planet is the goal.

These are not the things were are discussing.
We are speaking to covert operations of our alphabet agencies if reference to governance.

 

[Antiwar]

These are not the things were are discussing.
We are speaking to covert operations of our alphabet agencies if reference to governance.

That's what I am talking about.

 

[noonereal]

That's what I am talking about.

In that case, your post is not really valid.

 

[Antiwar]

In that case, your post is not really valid.

What does US militarism (including CIA dark operations) result in? Human rights abuses, regime changes, democracy quashed in some regions (Middle East, Asia, North Africa, Latin America). Environmental damage galore as a result; also due to the process (fueling militarism); also the goal, which is to maintain the fossil fuels driven economy which results in overwhelming pollution.

 

[noonereal]

What does US militarism (including CIA dark operations) result in? Human rights abuses, regime changes, democracy quashed in some regions (Middle East, Asia, North Africa, Latin America). Environmental damage galore as a result; also due to the process (fueling militarism); also the goal, which is to maintain the fossil fuels driven economy which results in overwhelming pollution.

agree

It' s a nasty world, we only weaken ourselves to assume an altruistic posture.
I support dark operations.

 

[Antiwar]

...

I support dark operations.

That's because you're a conservative/regressive.

 

[Lutherf]

I can tell you guys are worried about losing. The problem, the thing you guys haven't realized yet, is that you've already lost. The Democrats have the Presidency, and the Senate, and the House.

It's over. The elections are over. And you lost. You lost big time. And part of the reason why you lost is you guys kept pushing idiotic conspiracy theories about voter fraud and this discouraged your fellow Republicans from voting.



The idea being presented is this: We're the majority, and if you have a problem with that you're going to work harder to win some elections, and not attempt to support people trying to initiate a violent coup.



All you guys really have to do is not engage in acts of violence and domestic terrorism, and also not support those that do, either rhetorically or financially.

What would be super helpful is if you guys came to terms with the fact that support for Trump has morphed into a fascistic movement and then also condemn the violence and the rhetoric on Jan 6th and Trump's encouragement of that violence. If you could do that in a consistent and forceful way that would really help. That would help avoid acts of domestic terrorism in the future. It's really striking the things I am reading and hearing from Trump supporters. It's a lot like what happened after 9/11 when normal Muslims kept making excuse after excuse for the radical Muslims. That's what you guys are doing now and it's pretty disgusting.

Republicans were discouraged from voting? Trump's vote count went UP, not down.

Yes, there is concern about the legitimacy of the election but that isn't the primary concern. The GOP has lost elections before so merely losing an election isn't cause for despair for most people. The concern is with regard to what Democrats are going to do. The concern isn't the loss of Trump as a national political figure. While it may have been a concern for some on the right it seems to have been MUCH MORE a media talking point and part of the propaganda campaign against those that support and demand the preservation of individual liberty.

With regard to your last point, the left spent more than half of last year engaging in violent acts against the PEOPLE of various cities across the nation. To now decry the protest at the Capitol as being "domestic terrorism" is disingenuous at best.

 

[noonereal]

That's because you're a conservative/regressive.

i am a republican never Trumper

socially liberal, fiscally conservative, favor a strong defense but feel the military's budge could be cut by 25%

 

[Antiwar]

i am a republican never Trumper

socially liberal, fiscally conservative, favor a strong defense but feel the military's budge could be cut by 25%

As I said.

 

[Tim the plumber]

I’d just like to say that this is simply false. Unless the result is a Trump victory, Donald Trump will not accept it. And if he will not accept it, the vast majority of Trump supporters will not accept. This is what happens when you are in a cult. Your opinion matters little; the one that does is the cult leader’s.

If there is a reasonable open investigation 90%+ would accept the result.

 

[Buckeyes85]

With regard to your last point, the left spent more than half of last year engaging in violent acts against the PEOPLE of various cities across the nation. To now decry the protest at the Capitol as being "domestic terrorism" is disingenuous at best.

I know this is the best argument you guys have, so you are going to keep beating it but it is weak.
The "left" did not riot last year. And those that did riot and cause damage were condemned by the de facto leader of the Democrats - Joe Biden.
Conversely, Trump's message to his mob storming the Capitol was that he loved them but they should go home. (Words spoken almost simultaneously with Trump's Brute Squad dragging a police officer out of the Capitol and beating him, amongst other things, with an American Flag).

In no way shape or form would I defend those who looted, stole and burned during the BLM protests. But it is a false equivalence to imply what happened at the Capitol was no worse. One was a stupid attack on property, the other was an assault on our democracy.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

It' s a nasty world, we only weaken ourselves to assume an altruistic posture.

I support dark operations.

How curious. These last few days there is a great deal of exaggerated talk about how dark and horrifying was the *occupation* of the Capitol. According to that narrative, the occupation was a coup attempt. By definition a 'dark operation'. You do not agree with the philosophy of those who are said to want to undertake a coup -- the Trumpists -- but such a dark operation you support, at least in principle.

So if your chosen side were carrying out such a coup you support the notion in principle.

This points up nicely the point I made originally.

Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

French altruisme, probably from Italian altrui, someone else, from Latin alter, other; see al- in Indo-European roots.

What you might not be taking into consideration, in my opinion, is that when a nation such as the US acts like an imperial invader, it violates in all regards the principles of its own Constitution. The Revolutionary War was waged against an oppressive regime. All the philosophy of the Founders is based on defending freedom against aggressive power and tyranny.

The issue is not 'altruism', the issue is avoiding becoming a tyrannical power.

Again, my point -- I feel it is a good one -- is that what we do to others, will eventually be done to ourselves. It tends to recoil.

This is a mathematical fact not so much a moral statement..

 

[Buckeyes85]

If there is a reasonable open investigation 90%+ would accept the result.

That is a rather incredible statement.
Without any evidence, millions and millions of Trump supporters "KNOW" there was fraud. Their source? Trump and his minions. When asked if anything would ever convince them otherwise, the response of everyone I've seen was an emphatic "NO" because again, they "KNOW" there was fraud.
Moreover, those actually in charge of voting from Commissioners, Secretaries of state and Governors (even in Republican states) have explained in detail the supposed irregularities.
It has not changed one single Trumper's opinion.

In short, the voter fraud issue is a conspiracy theory that can't be disproven because conspiracy theorists by their nature do not accept evidence contra to their conspiracy.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

 

[Lutherf]

I know this is the best argument you guys have, so you are going to keep beating it but it is weak.
The "left" did not riot last year. And those that did riot and cause damage were condemned by the de facto leader of the Democrats - Joe Biden.
Conversely, Trump's message to his mob storming the Capitol was that he loved them but they should go home. (Words spoken almost simultaneously with Trump's Brute Squad dragging a police officer out of the Capitol and beating him, amongst other things, with an American Flag).

In no way shape or form would I defend those who looted, stole and burned during the BLM protests. But it is a false equivalence to imply what happened at the Capitol was no worse. One was a stupid attack on property, the other was an assault on our democracy.

It's easy to say the words "I condemn". It's quite another to actually do something about the situation. Biden may have said the words but his VP pick supported at least one group that provided financial and legal support to the rioters. At least 13 of his staffers also supported the MFF.

 

[Lutherf]

I'm glad that Omar feels that way. We feel the fame about a corrupt political system that unjustly undermined the Trump campaign and then the Trump presidency at every turn.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

I'm glad that Omar feels that way. We feel the fame about a corrupt political system that unjustly undermined the Trump campaign and then the Trump presidency at every turn.

You had the same recourse as the rest of us: vote. You did, and we did.

You lost.

 

[Lutherf]

You had the same recourse as the rest of us: vote. You did, and we did.

You lost.

With all due respect, losing an election in no way precludes and individual or an organization from continuing to advocate for their beliefs.

Well, it didn't used to mean that. We'll have to see what democrats do to "fix" that loophole.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

With all due respect, losing an election in no way precludes and individual or an organization from continuing to advocate for their beliefs.

Well, it didn't used to mean that. We'll have to see what democrats do to "fix" that loophole.

Sure, but like ISIS, that advocation comes with limits, and as you can see the social/criminal consequences mean you won’t be part of our society.