How do we prove that Obama is a Socialist?

[Andalublue]

Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.

It might help if you demonstrated that you understand what aspects of political organisation need to be present for you to describe a regime as 'socialist'. Statements about spreading wealth and transformation of society are insufficient evidence. What does 'socialism' mean to you, in your own words? No wiki-links now!

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?

False premise logical fallacy. If you cannot prove it, it may not be accurate.

 

[Wiseone]

Are we not a Republic, as evidenced by the National Anthem?

I do know what socialism and its variations are. Time and again people ask me to define it as though I know not what I speak. It gets old quickly.

You can't serious argue we, or anyone, simply are a Republic just because we say we are. The Chinese and North Koreans also call themselves a Republic. Now the United States is a Republic, however its not because we simply say we are, its in our actions and how we run our government.

 

[Andalublue]

Are we not a Republic, as evidenced by the National Anthem?

What does that mean exactly?

I do know what socialism and its variations are. Time and again people ask me to define it as though I know not what I speak. It gets old quickly.

I'm afraid you haven't demonstrated or proved that you do, merely trotted out tired old saws about spreading wealth and transformation.

 

[Lerxst]

Who cares if he is a socialist? What is a real socialist anyway? Is it someone who promotes socialist programs? If that is the case damn near every President since FDR is a socialist to one degree or another. Since when did capitalism equate to being "good" anyway? And when did socialism equate to being "bad?" I hear this so much that I am convinced most people don't really understand what the two words actually mean. It's not nearly as simple as one would think. Both are good in measured doses. I actually talked to some people who believe you can't have a democracy without capitalism. What??? I am left scratching my head sometimes.

In other news Glenn Beck is reporting that Obama is going to spend 2 billion dollars on his Asia trip because it was "reported."

 

[MaggieD]

I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?

I read on another thread that you wanted to hone your debating skills.

You could start by presenting your correlating evidence that Obama is indeed a Socialist....?

 

[Wake]

I don't know if he is a "full-blown socialist." What is true is that the president picks his administration. Van Jones called himself a communist, Cass Sunstein has socialistic designs for the nation, Anita Dunn views Mao as a hero, and Mark Lloyd believes that the Fairness Doctrine should be imposed which would affect all conservative radios shows but undoubtedly not any liberal shows. Furthermore, I cannot help but think that liberals here have been/are becoming like socialistic liberals in others nations such as those in Europe. Maxine Waters flubbed by stating the government would "socializ---erm, nationalize" the car industries. Al Sharpton stated that America voted for socialism when they elected Obama.

Yes, I know this is not solid proof. However, when people that obviously support Obama start saying such things and passing certain actions, I cannot help but think to connect a few dots. What is required to think Obama is socialistic/a socialist? Do you only need to hear it from his mouth while everything else be damned?

 

[marduc]

From the mouth of Glenn Beck straight to the minds of the impressionable.

 

[Wake]

From the mouth of Glenn Beck straight to the minds of the impressionable.

Well, would you refute those points then in their entirety?

 

[marduc]

Well, would you refute those points then in their entirety?

Nope I am not in the business of trying to get blind men to look through a window.

 

[Wake]

Nope I am not in the business of trying to get blind men to look through a window.

But perhaps it is your blindness to think that others cannot ever be persuaded or at least able to understand? Who knows, you may have found yourself a rarity. I will not blindly agree to either cause, and I am deontologic on very certain issues. However, I can definitely understand your points and possibly agree if you are willing to enlighten me.

 

[Barbbtx]

I recommend you find an actual socialist country, say Sweden, and use it as a basis for comparison. For example, their healthcare system is funded by taxes levied on citizens and run completely by the government. The healthcare bill signed by Obama required people to get insurance from private companies. By comparing the two systems, it is clear that American bill is quite different and not socialist.

Obama would prefer a single payer health plan. The fact that we are not there yet doesn't mean it's not still his goal.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Are we not a Republic, as evidenced by the National Anthem?

I do know what socialism and its variations are. Time and again people ask me to define it as though I know not what I speak. It gets old quickly.

I haven't figured out why socialists get all butthurt about being called socialists. Socialists from other countries aren't ashamed of it, but American socialists sure are. If we can't all agree that a single-payer health care system is a socialist idea, then there's not much argument to be had with them.

Some people will try to argue that Obamacare is a giveaway to insurance companies, but seem to miss entirely that it is designed to fail. His ultimate goal is to get to single-payer (he said it, not me). When prices go up due to the current health care law, he'll blame the evil insurance companies and run them out of business altogether. Since it's altogether impossible for the sun to come up in the morning if you don't have health insurance, we'll have to buy into his single payer system because there won't be an alternative.

 

[Paschendale]

Let's stop feeding Wake. He trolls this hard in pretty much every thread.

 

[Wake]

Let's stop feeding Wake. He trolls this hard in pretty much every thread.

I am no troll. However, what you are currently doing is trolling.

If you're not going to contribute to this thread, then please don't post.

 

[Andalublue]

I haven't figured out why socialists get all butthurt about being called socialists. Socialists from other countries aren't ashamed of it, but American socialists sure are. If we can't all agree that a single-payer health care system is a socialist idea, then there's not much argument to be had with them.

It might be because the US right (from McCarthy onwards) has achieved an aim in converting 'socialist' (and even 'liberal' these days) into a term of abuse. Witness about 50% of posts on this thread. The American left needs to either reclaim the term with pride and enthusiasm, or else come up with a new one that doesn't scare all the pretty horses.

 

[obvious Child]

I am no troll. However, what you are currently doing is trolling.

Perhaps not. But that does not equate to you understanding the terms you are attempting to use.

Tell me, what kind of Socialist explicitly allows the most capitalistic of investors to escape government oversight?
(Hint: not a socialist)

 

[FederalRepublic]

Perhaps not. But that does not equate to you understanding the terms you are attempting to use.

Tell me, what kind of Socialist explicitly allows the most capitalistic of investors to escape government oversight?

(Hint: THE OPPORTUNISTIC KIND)

I fixed your hint for you. I'm sure it was just a typo.

 

[FederalRepublic]

It might be because the US right (from McCarthy onwards) has achieved an aim in converting 'socialist' (and even 'liberal' these days) into a term of abuse. Witness about 50% of posts on this thread. The American left needs to either reclaim the term with pride and enthusiasm, or else come up with a new one that doesn't scare all the pretty horses.

There's more truth in that statement that most Americans liberals will admit. However, you might find that the reason people like me are so adamantly against socialism is because socialists think the rest of us are livestock...

Wrapping it in a different package just pisses people off. Then you have a bunch of tools come in here and flame Wake because he sees them for what they are. It's a slap in the face and a spit in the eye.

 

[Andalublue]

There's more truth in that statement that most Americans liberals will admit. However, you might find that the reason people like me are so adamantly against socialism is because socialists think the rest of us are livestock...

Of course you can back that up with evidence, can you?

Wrapping it in a different package just pisses people off. Then you have a bunch of tools come in here and flame Wake because he sees them for what they are. It's a slap in the face and a spit in the eye.

I tend to agree. Call a dog a hound, I say. Just don't make ludicrous analogies and label people incorrectly just because you've got a boogieman label at your disposal. Labelling Obama a socialist is just plain wrong. I wish he were a socialist but he's not. He not only supports the capitalist system, but is intent on shoring up its continued hegemony on western society. That is anti-socialist in the most fundamental way possible. He is a liberal democrat, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[obvious Child]

(Hint: THE OPPORTUNISTIC KIND)

I fixed your hint for you. I'm sure it was just a typo.

So you're telling me that Obama the Socialist explicitly carved out a section for hedge funds to exempt them from oversight means he's an opportunistic socialist even when that act goes against everything socialists believe?

The lengths some people will go to maintain their ideologies in the fact of reality is pretty insane. Take you for example.

 

[obvious Child]

There's more truth in that statement that most Americans liberals will admit. However, you might find that the reason people like me are so adamantly against socialism is because socialists think the rest of us are livestock.

That begs the question if you even know what Socialism is.

Wrapping it in a different package just pisses people off. Then you have a bunch of tools come in here and flame Wake because he sees them for what they are. It's a slap in the face and a spit in the eye.

Wake has completely failed to demonstrate he understand the basic concept. As you have. Coming in assuming Obama is a socialist and then utterly failing to show he can even define term should get him flamed. Wake has run away from every technical point asking him to show Obama is a socialist and fled from every post showing Obama is not. He should ge flamed for that behavior.

 

[Lerxst]

There's more truth in that statement that most Americans liberals will admit. However, you might find that the reason people like me are so adamantly against socialism is because socialists think the rest of us are livestock...

Wrapping it in a different package just pisses people off. Then you have a bunch of tools come in here and flame Wake because he sees them for what they are. It's a slap in the face and a spit in the eye.

Horse ****. This is glaringly devoid of substance, and chock full of hollow, ignorant rhetoric. And I mean that in a very far right, Christian way. So please don't take offense.